you bring up the exceptional high school turned pro examples. waht about kwame, shaun livingston, even korleone young. theres a lot of good to be said about going to college. even to get their heads on straight; its worth it. college isnt all about basketball, you gotta do some growing up and its better done in college than in the pros.
Forget lottery this year
- Thread starter CruzDude
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you bring up the exceptional high school turned pro examples. waht about kwame, shaun livingston, even korleone young. theres a lot of good to be said about going to college. even to get their heads on straight; its worth it. college isnt all about basketball, you gotta do some growing up and its better done in college than in the pros.
UC Santa Barbara among probably another 100 or so schools. With millions of dollars you can have couch bonfires every week.
I've never been a fan of kids coming out before they are ready but Durant and Oden are no brainers. There have been far too many examples of kids staying an extra year or two and losing millions as a result that its just not worth it if you are a lock at #1 or #2. That doesn't even take into consideration the potential for injury and losing everything.
On the other side of the coin those kids staying an extra year potentially cheats a player of lesser skills and means out of a scholarship and education that they would actually use post graduation. I had a few star athletes in my classes back when I was in school, they hardly ever attended classes and frequently complained about the workload which IMHO brings down the quality for everyone around them. But at least they're stars.
I've never been a fan of kids coming out before they are ready but Durant and Oden are no brainers. There have been far too many examples of kids staying an extra year or two and losing millions as a result that its just not worth it if you are a lock at #1 or #2. That doesn't even take into consideration the potential for injury and losing everything.
On the other side of the coin those kids staying an extra year potentially cheats a player of lesser skills and means out of a scholarship and education that they would actually use post graduation. I had a few star athletes in my classes back when I was in school, they hardly ever attended classes and frequently complained about the workload which IMHO brings down the quality for everyone around them. But at least they're stars.
From the buyer's perspective, it's debatable whether or not it's better for them to stay in school -- I think that giving them better competition, more PT and less distractions is more than worth it in most cases, but I can also imagine situations where an unusually immature player might benefit from waiting.
From the seller's perspective, though, I think that the guy should enter the draft as soon as he can be sure of being a top pick. Since you mentioned Shaun Livingston, let's take a look at him. He entered the draft straight out of high school, was injured a lot through his first year and a half in the NBA, and has now been so badly injured that his NBA career may be over. He missed out on college, and has only a little over 10 million dollars as consolation. Had he stayed in college, he might now have 45 semester units towards a PE degree from Duke, and had his knee go out in a college game. Don't get me wrong, a degree from Duke, even if it's just in PE or Liberal Arts or something, is good, it's just not $10M good. Had I been his agent, or his friend, or his parent, and had the gift of prophecy, I'd have told him that he absolutely SHOULD enter the draft at 18. Being set up for life at the age of 20 doesn't sound all THAT bad, does it?
Kwame Brown: same. He got to be first pick, which is obviously more than he deserved. Had he stayed in college, his stock would probably have gone down to a more realistic level, he would have missed out on 4 years of NBA paychecks, and he would be many millions the poorer for it. It may not have been the best thing for the NBA, but it absolutely was the best thing for Kwame.
Korleone Young was never at close to the same level as those other guys, came in during the lockout-shortened season as a second-round pick, then promptly injured himself badly enough that he never even managed to play like a second-round rookie again. So he went off to play in the CBA, Europe and Australia. I don't even know what to say about a career like that. He was pretty much a scrub to begin with, and only made hundreds of thousands, rather than millions, during of his time in the NBA, but that's not too bad for a guy whose career scoring total was 13 points. Had he gotten the same injury playing in college, he would never have played in the NBA at all. And his career wasn't much different from a lot of second-round scrubs. What do you say about a career like that? "Who cares?"
From the seller's perspective, though, I think that the guy should enter the draft as soon as he can be sure of being a top pick. Since you mentioned Shaun Livingston, let's take a look at him. He entered the draft straight out of high school, was injured a lot through his first year and a half in the NBA, and has now been so badly injured that his NBA career may be over. He missed out on college, and has only a little over 10 million dollars as consolation. Had he stayed in college, he might now have 45 semester units towards a PE degree from Duke, and had his knee go out in a college game. Don't get me wrong, a degree from Duke, even if it's just in PE or Liberal Arts or something, is good, it's just not $10M good. Had I been his agent, or his friend, or his parent, and had the gift of prophecy, I'd have told him that he absolutely SHOULD enter the draft at 18. Being set up for life at the age of 20 doesn't sound all THAT bad, does it?
Kwame Brown: same. He got to be first pick, which is obviously more than he deserved. Had he stayed in college, his stock would probably have gone down to a more realistic level, he would have missed out on 4 years of NBA paychecks, and he would be many millions the poorer for it. It may not have been the best thing for the NBA, but it absolutely was the best thing for Kwame.
Korleone Young was never at close to the same level as those other guys, came in during the lockout-shortened season as a second-round pick, then promptly injured himself badly enough that he never even managed to play like a second-round rookie again. So he went off to play in the CBA, Europe and Australia. I don't even know what to say about a career like that. He was pretty much a scrub to begin with, and only made hundreds of thousands, rather than millions, during of his time in the NBA, but that's not too bad for a guy whose career scoring total was 13 points. Had he gotten the same injury playing in college, he would never have played in the NBA at all. And his career wasn't much different from a lot of second-round scrubs. What do you say about a career like that? "Who cares?"
i agree about the dollar sense. its a nobrainer. waht im trying to bring on the other perspective is more about the type of person you can be, to yourself, others, and the world. to that end, i see college being beneficial not for monetary reasons, as the nba clearly takes the cake in that regard, but just gaining a better perspective on life. earning millions of dollars in a fast paced environment with the media scrutiny doenst exactly keep level heads, ya no?
I agree that staying in school is a very positive thing for most people, in terms of becoming a better rounded person. Not sure whether that applies to ballplayers or not, the few hardcore athletes I knew in university had a bevy of coeds writing most of their papers for them, and they didn't exactly lean towards taking a lot of linear algebra or molecular biology, either. But maybe it helps.
The way I see it is that I have a nice car, live in a nice neighborhood, and make a "decent" living.
If someone offered me 10 million right now to quit my job and work for a big(ger) company I would totally do it. Loyalty or no, its too much to pass on. Even if they had told me that if i said no than they would come back next year and offer me the same.. What if I died or was injured and had to be on disability? The college experience to me isn't worth risking your future stability no matter how slim the risk is. The guy would have been in the NBA already if he could. It's not like the guy will use the schooling to fall back on if he's not successful, because we are talking 50 million when he says "i'm going to the NBA".
If someone offered me 10 million right now to quit my job and work for a big(ger) company I would totally do it. Loyalty or no, its too much to pass on. Even if they had told me that if i said no than they would come back next year and offer me the same.. What if I died or was injured and had to be on disability? The college experience to me isn't worth risking your future stability no matter how slim the risk is. The guy would have been in the NBA already if he could. It's not like the guy will use the schooling to fall back on if he's not successful, because we are talking 50 million when he says "i'm going to the NBA".
Durant should definitely go. He has all the tools, will not improve any further under the used-car salesman that is Rick Barnes, and will only have the bloom come off the rose by staying in school. He is THE hot guy right now. It's not like Texas is going to do better next year. Barnes will still be one of the worst coaches in Division I and Augustin will still make 10-12 horrible decisions a game.
Fifteen years ago, Oden would have definitely stayed, but he should go today. You compare Oden's collegiate year to big-men phenoms of the past and he is not even close. Injury or not, he does not compare at all as a freshman to guys like Webber and Shaq. That said, he is still a major force on the defensive end. I think he translates to a Mutombo with a slightly more varied offensive game, which is crazy to spend the #1 pick on, but we all know the only qualification to be an NBA GM is former player status. If only the NBA was run like the NFL. . .a boy can dream.
Fifteen years ago, Oden would have definitely stayed, but he should go today. You compare Oden's collegiate year to big-men phenoms of the past and he is not even close. Injury or not, he does not compare at all as a freshman to guys like Webber and Shaq. That said, he is still a major force on the defensive end. I think he translates to a Mutombo with a slightly more varied offensive game, which is crazy to spend the #1 pick on, but we all know the only qualification to be an NBA GM is former player status. If only the NBA was run like the NFL. . .a boy can dream.
While there is more to it than just stats, I think sometimes when we look back at the great bigs of years past we are remembering what they looked like as juniors/seniors rather than as frosh, let alone frosh with injured hands:
Freshman Years
Webber 31.9min 15.5pts (.496 FG%) 10.0reb 2.2ast 1.6stl 2.5blk
Shaq 28.2min 13.9pts (.556 FG%) 12.0reb 1.9ast 1.2stl 3.6blk
Ewing 28.8min 12.7 (.631 FG%) 7.5reb 0.6ast 1.1stl 3.2blk
Duncan 30.2min 9.8pts (.545 FG%) 9.6reb 0.9ast 0.4stl 3.8blk
Admiral 13.3min 7.6pts (.623 FG%) 4.0reb 0.2ast 0.2stl 1.3blk
Oden 29.5min 15.6pts (.605 FG%) 9.8reb 0.7ast 0.5stl 3.4blk
Which is not to say that Oden is going to eb as good as those guys -- indeed I think he really needs to work hard this offseason of offensive footwork and developing a goto move -- but that none of those greats dominated any more than he has in their first years either. Most of them really blew up in Yr 2.
Wow...
Do you really know where their two families are at financially?... I'll tell you right now, If I'm the projected #1 draft pick, I'm getting into the league ASAP, give me that check baby. I hope to god your not saying that a couple lame frat parties out weigh the millions and millions of dollars and not to mention the other bonuses ::cough:: Eva Longoria ::cough:: that you get when being an NBA star.
The argument is that they might not if they do not play and just waste away on the bench instead of being "the man" in college. But that's obviously not a concern in this case. So that leaves the maturity angles -- physical and mental. But physically this kid's a freak and already a full grown man. So the only thing left is the emotional maturity and whatnot, but when compared to the coming out now, being celebrated and showered with money, having a team invest itself in you completely, sponsors hand you ridiculous sums of money etc., that's pretty small potatoes.
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What is funny is I got the same result, I am sure most of us have seen NBADraftnet.com in which Hawes is compared to #52........you have got to be kidding me......picking him at #3 when most mocks (for what thier worth) barely have him in the 10 - 15 range, figures we would do that....
We already have one #52 why and the f would we want another???
Please, I will lose my mind if we cant move senior #52 and I have to see his pathetic self in a kings uni for 3 more years and then we draft junior #52......UGGGGG.......if that's the case let's just have them both wear #52 next year so when they both suck (and they most likely will) we won't be able to tell them apart.......maybe we can give then a stupid hollywood couple nickname to, something like Haw-ler.......because I swear that is what I will be doing, Hollering if we have both of them..
You know what, let's draft junior #52 and sign him to a 7 year deal also, forget the 3 to 4 (with option) year rookie deals that are NBA mandated, let's bypass the rule and look him up for like & years and give him say $80 - 85 mil then we can suck for a whole decade.....
......just one fans take.....
NO ACIE LAW PLEASE.........If we want a shoot first no D playing PG that is a shrimp then let's just keep #10.....
Okay the game is on gotta run, go Suns, help us move up the lottery baby....do it Sunday too......
What, it is already 14 -4 Suns.......that's the Kings I have come to know.....
We already have one #52 why and the f would we want another???
Please, I will lose my mind if we cant move senior #52 and I have to see his pathetic self in a kings uni for 3 more years and then we draft junior #52......UGGGGG.......if that's the case let's just have them both wear #52 next year so when they both suck (and they most likely will) we won't be able to tell them apart.......maybe we can give then a stupid hollywood couple nickname to, something like Haw-ler.......because I swear that is what I will be doing, Hollering if we have both of them..
You know what, let's draft junior #52 and sign him to a 7 year deal also, forget the 3 to 4 (with option) year rookie deals that are NBA mandated, let's bypass the rule and look him up for like & years and give him say $80 - 85 mil then we can suck for a whole decade.....
......just one fans take.....NO ACIE LAW PLEASE.........If we want a shoot first no D playing PG that is a shrimp then let's just keep #10.....
Okay the game is on gotta run, go Suns, help us move up the lottery baby....do it Sunday too......
What, it is already 14 -4 Suns.......that's the Kings I have come to know.....
I want Joakim Noah. His after-game dance would be a welcome addition.
Or the wins will be so few and far between that he will either forget how or pull a muscle when he tries due to inactivity......lol...
What is funny is I got the same result, I am sure most of us have seen NBADraftnet.com in which Hawes is compared to #52........you have got to be kidding me......picking him at #3 when most mocks (for what thier worth) barely have him in the 10 - 15 range, figures we would do that....
We already have one #52 why and the f would we want another???
Please, I will lose my mind if we cant move senior #52 and I have to see his pathetic self in a kings uni for 3 more years and then we draft junior #52......UGGGGG.......if that's the case let's just have them both wear #52 next year so when they both suck (and they most likely will) we won't be able to tell them apart.......maybe we can give then a stupid hollywood couple nickname to, something like Haw-ler.......because I swear that is what I will be doing, Hollering if we have both of them..
You know what, let's draft junior #52 and sign him to a 7 year deal also, forget the 3 to 4 (with option) year rookie deals that are NBA mandated, let's bypass the rule and look him up for like & years and give him say $80 - 85 mil then we can suck for a whole decade.....
......just one fans take.....
NO ACIE LAW PLEASE.........If we want a shoot first no D playing PG that is a shrimp then let's just keep #10.....
Okay the game is on gotta run, go Suns, help us move up the lottery baby....do it Sunday too......
What, it is already 14 -4 Suns.......that's the Kings I have come to know.....
We already have one #52 why and the f would we want another???
Please, I will lose my mind if we cant move senior #52 and I have to see his pathetic self in a kings uni for 3 more years and then we draft junior #52......UGGGGG.......if that's the case let's just have them both wear #52 next year so when they both suck (and they most likely will) we won't be able to tell them apart.......maybe we can give then a stupid hollywood couple nickname to, something like Haw-ler.......because I swear that is what I will be doing, Hollering if we have both of them..
You know what, let's draft junior #52 and sign him to a 7 year deal also, forget the 3 to 4 (with option) year rookie deals that are NBA mandated, let's bypass the rule and look him up for like & years and give him say $80 - 85 mil then we can suck for a whole decade.....
......just one fans take.....NO ACIE LAW PLEASE.........If we want a shoot first no D playing PG that is a shrimp then let's just keep #10.....
Okay the game is on gotta run, go Suns, help us move up the lottery baby....do it Sunday too......
What, it is already 14 -4 Suns.......that's the Kings I have come to know.....
My screen name makes my feelings obvious, it is just hard to acknowledge people by their names when in my opinion they are a major source of the team sucking (via their effort and talent level) and the reason why we cannot play the free agent market (making atleast twice what their worth for the all-star like level of suckage they bring nightly).....
Besides I think we all know the names of these culprits #10, #9 and #52, that being said if the day comes when they do go I will have to get a new screen name..or if either left and Martin or Ron or Corliss changed their number to #10 or #9 or #52 then that would throw me off as well.....
So, yes that's my shtick, not a good shtick but hey I have got to have some fun up on here right....
Besides I think we all know the names of these culprits #10, #9 and #52, that being said if the day comes when they do go I will have to get a new screen name..or if either left and Martin or Ron or Corliss changed their number to #10 or #9 or #52 then that would throw me off as well.....
So, yes that's my shtick, not a good shtick but hey I have got to have some fun up on here right....
My screen name makes my feelings obvious, it is just hard to acknowledge people by their names when in my opinion they are a major source of the team sucking (via their effort and talent level) and the reason why we cannot play the free agent market (making atleast twice what their worth for the all-star like level of suckage they bring nightly).....
Besides I think we all know the names of these culprits #10, #9 and #52, that being said if the day comes when they do go I will have to get a new screen name..or if either left and Martin or Ron or Corliss changed their number to #10 or #9 or #52 then that would throw me off as well.....
So, yes that's my shtick, not a good shtick but hey I have got to have some fun up on here right....
Besides I think we all know the names of these culprits #10, #9 and #52, that being said if the day comes when they do go I will have to get a new screen name..or if either left and Martin or Ron or Corliss changed their number to #10 or #9 or #52 then that would throw me off as well.....
So, yes that's my shtick, not a good shtick but hey I have got to have some fun up on here right....
Not all of us like them either(specifically "#9") but we manage to call them by their name.
I want Joakim Noah. His after-game dance would be a welcome addition.
Furthermore, I think the guy is going to be a weekly controversy. In reading some media pieces on him it is very apparent that this kid grew up in French and Swedish high society and feels compelled to espouse those values to anyone within earshot. I think Billy Donovan and the kid-glove college basketball media have been able to keep a lid on it so far, but the media will not be so kind once he loses college-kid status.
Okay, let's say you suck, but you were the #1 pick. Guess what you have guaranteed contract. You made 10 million dollars. Guess what, you can afford to go back to school. You won't be the #1 basketball player on campus, but you can still go and learn. Nobody says you can't go back. What does happen though is there are only certain ages where you can be an effective NBA player, same can't be said for most of the rest of the workforce.
College is trying to get you ready either to go to additional school or a job. Well if your already for work, what's the point. Afterwards, you can get a rewarding degree but if my child had the chance at 18 to skip school and make a couple million, I'd say go right at it. When he was done, I'd recommend him to go to school or invest well, but those things don't have to happen in order. NBA can come before school. Odds are, will it? Nope, but it can. The NBA dream and oppurtunity will eventually go away for most players but even a mediocre student can go back to college and get a degree if he desires to.
College is trying to get you ready either to go to additional school or a job. Well if your already for work, what's the point. Afterwards, you can get a rewarding degree but if my child had the chance at 18 to skip school and make a couple million, I'd say go right at it. When he was done, I'd recommend him to go to school or invest well, but those things don't have to happen in order. NBA can come before school. Odds are, will it? Nope, but it can. The NBA dream and oppurtunity will eventually go away for most players but even a mediocre student can go back to college and get a degree if he desires to.
Not trhe same thing though -- there is a real value to maturing/growing up wiht a bunch of people your age. At least at a good school with serious students. Learn a lot more than just how to make money. If you go bacvk at 35-40 or whatever, its a different thing. Can still learn a lot, but you;re ina different place the most of the other students.
But in any case, I certainly agree that when you talking about a TOP NBA pick, as opposed to just a 2nd rounder or whatnot, the pure raw $$ and opportunity just overwhelms whatever value there is in those life experiences. Quite literally opportunities of a lifetime.
But in any case, I certainly agree that when you talking about a TOP NBA pick, as opposed to just a 2nd rounder or whatnot, the pure raw $$ and opportunity just overwhelms whatever value there is in those life experiences. Quite literally opportunities of a lifetime.
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More than enough people have matured without college and there are a ton of players who went to college and never matured. Would you call Ron very mature? He went to St. Johns, while I think a player like KG would be considered pretty "tame." There are also guys like Pac-Man Jones who went to 3 years of college and I wouldn't trust him more than I would trust a 14 year old.
I think there have been many raw players who could have definitely used some college or some college players who left to early. But then again, maybe they were never really that good. I think when the oppurtunity is given it should be taken. I don't think there are many players who went from the bottom of the bench to lottery picks in 4 years. I guess there are some but I think it's quite overrated. If you look at where players were from Rivals.com in High School, you'll see that pretty much match their NBA potential atleast with basketball.
2004 Class:
Dwight Howard-Hmmm...still would be the best
Shaun-Hurt
Josh Smith
Al Jefferson
Rudy Gay
Telfair
Malik Hairston (if you watched him yesterday he was pretty good for Oregon)
JR Smith
Joe Crawford (disappointing)
R. Morris
Marvin Williams
Dorell Wright
Glen Davis
DJ White
Lamarcus Aldridge.
I guess some stock went higher than it was in high school but not significantly higher.
They are pretty good when it comes to NBA prospects from HS.
2002 Class from Scout.com
Amare
Melo
Felton
P. Davis (pretty mediocre)
Jason Fraser (pretty mediocre)
Bosh
McCants
Shelden WIlliams
Deangelo Collins (?)
Sean May
Lenny Cooke (?)
SHavlik-
JJ Redick
2003
Lebron
Deng
Ebi
Padgett (draft stock fallen)
Perkins
Villaneuva
Powe
Paul
Shakur
Butch
I think there have been many raw players who could have definitely used some college or some college players who left to early. But then again, maybe they were never really that good. I think when the oppurtunity is given it should be taken. I don't think there are many players who went from the bottom of the bench to lottery picks in 4 years. I guess there are some but I think it's quite overrated. If you look at where players were from Rivals.com in High School, you'll see that pretty much match their NBA potential atleast with basketball.
2004 Class:
Dwight Howard-Hmmm...still would be the best
Shaun-Hurt
Josh Smith
Al Jefferson
Rudy Gay
Telfair
Malik Hairston (if you watched him yesterday he was pretty good for Oregon)
JR Smith
Joe Crawford (disappointing)
R. Morris
Marvin Williams
Dorell Wright
Glen Davis
DJ White
Lamarcus Aldridge.
I guess some stock went higher than it was in high school but not significantly higher.
They are pretty good when it comes to NBA prospects from HS.
2002 Class from Scout.com
Amare
Melo
Felton
P. Davis (pretty mediocre)
Jason Fraser (pretty mediocre)
Bosh
McCants
Shelden WIlliams
Deangelo Collins (?)
Sean May
Lenny Cooke (?)
SHavlik-
JJ Redick
2003
Lebron
Deng
Ebi
Padgett (draft stock fallen)
Perkins
Villaneuva
Powe
Paul
Shakur
Butch