The Artest superstar myth

[rumpled]

I keep seeing people refer to Artest as variations of "impact player", "top 15 talent" and etc. Like we think we could trade him for an allstar or something. I don't really see Ron that way anymore. And I'm not arguing the potential isn't there, just like everyone I watched him be an impact player from game to game. And you can't watch him have a good game without falling in love with the bulldog intensity, and maybe just the sheer fun of having an intimidating force on our side.

So all that potential is still there after 8 years but in terms of putting it together and having an impact-player type YEAR in the NBA, he's had maybe 1. Maybe, and even then not as a lead guy, more as a Rodmanesque sidekick, which is Ron's best role really.

After 8 years in the league I don't see the kind of offensive game that makes me think he could be a Kobe type scorer, ever. Nowhere close. On defense alone with a little scoring he could be a Wallace-Bowen type midlevel star if he kept his head together, for sure. But that's not the game-changing impact player you ride to a championship like some people make it out to be.

There's just so much hype with Artest and fans saying he could be this and what if that. He has such an awesome focus of willpower (sometimes) during a game that its hard to believe he couldn't be the biggest force in the NBA. But he hasn't done it, and he isn't doing it here. Also back problems are a huge red flag to me.

I know a lot of people have more faith in Ron's stardom than I do and I don't want to argue it really....it could still happen but he (IMO) would need to be in his happy zone and this obviously ain't it. It's looking more and more like something is up so there's more discussion about where Artest ranks among the top players of the league. But you can't even have that discussion without starting it with a big fat if.

Getting Ron Artest was a big gamble like taking a chance on a weirdo draft pick or something. And if we end up trading him that's how the next team down the line is going to look at it too, even more than we did.

 

[SacKings384]

BOWEN type midlevel star? Since when is Bowen anything more than a role player? You totally lost me there. Just because he can't be a "Kobe type" scorer means nothing. Kevin Garnett can't be a Kobe type scorer. Tim Duncan can't be a Kobe type scorer. There is no denying Ron's impact ON THE COURT. The problem then becomes what his impact is off of it. That is where the difference is. You are talking about on the court, many of us are worried about him off of it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Impact player ≠ superstar. Andris Biedrins is an impact player. Josh Smith is an impact player. Caron Butler is an impact player. Larry Hughes is an impact player. None of them are superstars.

Of course, as I've said dozens of time already, AFAIC, there's only two groups: stars and roleplayers. That's one of the problems with the Kings right now: All we have is a group of twelve roleplayers of varying value.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Of course, as I've said dozens of time already, AFAIC, there's only two groups: superstars and roleplayers. That's one of the problems with the Kings right now: All we have is a group of twelve roleplayers of varying value.

I agree 100%. We need to find a superstar somewhere. Maybe the draft, maybe a trade, I dont know. Just make it happen.

 

[tyrant]

highflyingmonkey and slim cit have a point. and that's what i stated a few days ago. every player on this roster isnt on the same level. most are role players and just a few are 2nd or 3rd tier scorers. thats why they all cant take the same # of shots. but you have sar, kenny and salmons tossing up garbage

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Second and third-tier scorers are roleplayers, too.

 

[Roman]

ut you have sar, kenny and salmons tossing up garbage

That makes me laugh.

You just called out 3 of the guys with higher shooting percentages on the team.

If they are tossing up "garbage", what is it when Martin forces a shot over a defender on the run? Or Bibby whenever he tries his transition jumper with a hand in his face? Or 9/10ths or Artest's shots?

I think I've come to the realization that King's fans have forgotten what penetration and post play looks like.

 

[tyrant]

a role player is bruce bowen. a 2nd tier scorer would be manu ginobili

 

[rumpled]

BOWEN type midlevel star? Since when is Bowen anything more than a role player? You totally lost me there. Just because he can't be a "Kobe type" scorer means nothing. Kevin Garnett can't be a Kobe type scorer. Tim Duncan can't be a Kobe type scorer. There is no denying Ron's impact ON THE COURT. The problem then becomes what his impact is off of it. That is where the difference is. You are talking about on the court, many of us are worried about him off of it.

Maybe it was a bad comparison...I'm saying his natural game doesn't suit the volume scorer comparisons. On offense he's more of a guy who'll give you 15-20 points but if you expect more like we have, you run into problems like we have. Sure, he can have a KG-like impact on a game at times. My only point was that the "at times" doesn't seem to happen consistently enough to warrant comparing him to players who have actually _shown_ the ability to carry a team by doing it for a season or 10.

But yeah, kobe type scorer means nothing much and I was trying (poorly) to compare Ron to other players who are huge on D but just fair on O. My underlying thing is, I don't realistically expect him to give us a full season's worth of the kind of allstar effort that he's capable of. Much less a career, who knows what'll happen. I don't want my team to gamble a big chunk of its future on the guy, plain and simple. Many people wouldn't, so whats he worth on the open market?

 

[Merdiesel]

Ron isn't being properly utilized/coached. Simple as that.


Also, since when is offense the only aspect of the game. Ron is one of the top defenders in the league, when hes on the court you know it.

 

[Roman]

Ron isn't being properly utilized/coached. Simple as that.

Nor are the rest of the guys on this roster.

Also, since when is offense the only aspect of the game. Ron is one of the top defenders in the league, when hes on the court you know it.

That's the truth.

The only issue with Ron is that he's wishy-washy. He's a bit of a "cracked nut". A few beers short of a six pack. It scares me that he sounds exactly the same as he did in Indiana.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

a role player is bruce bowen. a 2nd tier scorer would be manu ginobili

Second and third-tier scorers are roleplayers, too.

 

[tyrant]

Second and third-tier scorers are roleplayers, too.

noooooooooooooooooooooo, a role player knows not to shoot the ball unless his defender is 8 feet away from him. ok. tim duncan is the 1st option for the spurs. manu is a 2nd option and parker is 3rd. manu and parker are 2nd and 3 tier scorers. they are vital pieces to the core. bruce bowen is not apart of that core. he has a significant place on the team as a defender. he has no responsibility on offense. he is a role player. there is a difference.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. A roleplayer is anybody that a winning team can't be built around.

You can be a "vital piece of a core" and still be a roleplayer. And most players are.

 

[DaMan]

That makes me laugh.

You just called out 3 of the guys with higher shooting percentages on the team.

If they are tossing up "garbage", what is it when Martin forces a shot over a defender on the run? Or Bibby whenever he tries his transition jumper with a hand in his face? Or 9/10ths or Artest's shots?

I think I've come to the realization that King's fans have forgotten what penetration and post play looks like.

We may have forgotten what penetration is but I don't think we really knew what post play looks like, even in the day of webber and Vlade we were Known to be a perimenter orinented team. We were known to be a fancy and flashy but soft team. Today we are basically the same team but just take out the fancy and flashy, and add ugly and awful to go along with the soft and perimenter orinented.

 

[Indianapolis King]

It scares me that he sounds exactly the same as he did in Indiana

It should, b/c he does. Its like Dejavu for me. Ron (for whatever reason) thinks of himself as a top 5 player--he has been comparing himself to Kobe and Lebron for years. When Ron is on the "team-first" page, he can really help a team. When he is on a "ron-first" page, he can single-handedly destroy a team.

 

[rumpled]

It should, b/c he does. Its like Dejavu for me. Ron (for whatever reason) thinks of himself as a top 5 player--he has been comparing himself to Kobe and Lebron for years. When Ron is on the "team-first" page, he can really help a team. When he is on a "ron-first" page, he can single-handedly destroy a team.

Yep, sure looks like we're going down that road to me too. Maybe that's why I'm starting to think in terms of things Ron actually has done instead of just focussing on what he might do, someday, maybe, if he were coached right and had his head on straight.

He's done surprisingly little for someone people talk about like he's one of the great ones. It's been 8 years in the league now. Half of "Professional Ballplayer" is the professional part. I've seen the talent and the short-term intense focus and the great games, but in the long run so friggin what if you can't be a posisitive impact player for a whole year. Give him the keys to the bus and we're doing brodies in the parking lot going nowhere and some people are still claiming the bus needs a stick shift for him to drive it right. Ron Artest would be fantastic as a roleplayer (best ever, if blah blah blah) but he doesn't seem to want to be a roleplayer so what can you do.

What makes KG (for example) so special is that he shows up for work (in a 7 ft body helps) and has that intensity coupled with a certain professionalism. Maybe he's unhappy up there, I dunno, he's not saying much and shouldn't. As far as _I_ can tell he just keeps trying to do the job he gets paid for year after year. You could make the argument that he has "superduper-roleplayer" game instead of "true superstar" game...but you'd be missing the point. The point is it takes more than raw talent and potential to actually be a great player and Artest is really only about 3/4 of the package. He's three beers short of the full great-player 12 pack, and a few of those 9 beers left in there are a funny color.

 

[ESP47]

Ron is a superstar in a way that doesn't show up on the highlights or in the box score. How often does a team with one of the worst defenses in the league and almost no shot at the playoffs turn into one of the better defenses and playoff bound just by acquiring a guy who shoots 30 some odd percent, tacks on 4 or 5 rebounds and a few assists a game with average scoring? Its tough to see exactly why Ron makes the team better. But just having him on the court gives us a chance that most players can't bring single handedly.

 

[Indianapolis King]

How often does a team with one of the worst defenses in the league and almost no shot at the playoffs turn into one of the better defenses and playoff bound just by acquiring a guy who shoots 30 some odd percent, tacks on 4 or 5 rebounds and a few assists a game with average scoring?

about as often as that same guy singlehandedly destroys a team who had a legitimate shot at a title just a few years ago...

 

[chelle]

Ron is a superstar in a way that doesn't show up on the highlights or in the box score. How often does a team with one of the worst defenses in the league and almost no shot at the playoffs turn into one of the better defenses and playoff bound just by acquiring a guy who shoots 30 some odd percent, tacks on 4 or 5 rebounds and a few assists a game with average scoring? Its tough to see exactly why Ron makes the team better. But just having him on the court gives us a chance that most players can't bring single handedly.

We have not seen that this year. If we were seeing it, maybe more people would be yelling to keep him.

 

[rumpled]

Ron is a superstar in a way that doesn't show up on the highlights or in the box score. How often does a team with one of the worst defenses in the league and almost no shot at the playoffs turn into one of the better defenses and playoff bound just by acquiring a guy who shoots 30 some odd percent, tacks on 4 or 5 rebounds and a few assists a game with average scoring? Its tough to see exactly why Ron makes the team better. But just having him on the court gives us a chance that most players can't bring single handedly.

For a whole year, or you mean his best year ever?

 

[Packt]

Ron is an immense talent, we witnessed that last year. He has great value to the right team, maybe that team is us or maybe not. He is somewhat of a nutcase, but not one that can't be controlled. He might not be exactly a "superstar" but talent like his don't come around often.

He is being wasted on this team because we don’t' have enough of the right talent around him. Offensively he is capable, much more so than your traditional "defensive" players, and not a liability. If we had the right team, he'd be invaluable. Unfortunately that isn’t the case and it looks like we’ll end up trading him. I just hope we get as much as possible and I do feel we need to get draft picks to break even.

 

[rumpled]

Ron is an immense talent, we witnessed that last year. He has great value to the right team, maybe that team is us or maybe not. He is somewhat of a nutcase, but not one that can't be controlled. He might not be exactly a "superstar" but talent like his don't come around often.

He is being wasted on this team because we don’t' have enough of the right talent around him. Offensively he is capable, much more so than your traditional "defensive" players, and not a liability. If we had the right team, he'd be invaluable. Unfortunately that isn’t the case and it looks like we’ll end up trading him. I just hope we get as much as possible and I do feel we need to get to break even.

What ifs dont matter, we need people who can play basketball here. If we had the right team we wouldn't need scottie pippen either.

 

[kennadog]

He is somewhat of a nutcase, but not one that can't be controlled.

Please tell me who has proven to be able to control Ron and keep him controlled?

 

[Packt]

What ifs dont matter, we need people who can play basketball here. If we had the right team we wouldn't need scottie pippen either.

He's already shown that he can be succesful here. Even Kobe couldn't save the Lakers until they put the right people around him.

Please tell me who has proven to be able to control Ron and keep him controlled?

That is a hard question to answer but Ron being controlled is relative. He didn't have any trouble under our previous coach, and this year so far so good. Will it last, who knows? People look at his stint with Indy and see it as a complete failure, I don't. Ron isn't going to be a perfect player, I already except that, everything outside of the brawl I can live with.

He isn't going to save this team, but neither is anyone else.

 

[KP]

Our team leader is a loon.

 

[piksi]

Our team leader is a loon.

what else is new

 

[kennadog]

Our team leader is a loon.

Succinctly put.

 

[4cwebb]

That is a hard question to answer but Ron being controlled is relative. He didn't have any trouble under our previous coach, and this year so far so good. Will it last, who knows? People look at his stint with Indy and see it as a complete failure, I don't. Ron isn't going to be a perfect player, I already except that, everything outside of the brawl I can live with.

I don't think I see this year in the same way. A guy like Ron doesn't beg out of games with "minor" ailments if his head is fully into the game/his team/etc...he's the type of guy that battles through those troubles. And while it appears he's giving it go, as those who have watched have commented, he's not been terribly effective.

In my mind he reached is apex right before the brawl...he was destroying people on offense and defense. That is the Ron Artest that people are talking about when they talk about a top talent, imho, and it was because he could change a game defensively, and could also consistently give you an efficient 20 ppg or so. A player like that in today's game would be a special talent. At this point, unfortunately, it doesn't appear that version of Ron Artest is suiting up in a Kings' uniform every night, for a variety of reasons (not all of which are within his control).

 

[BARNHOUSExKINGS]

Sacramento needs a superstar.
We have none.
oh baby.