Heat @ Kings Game Thread

[Padrino]

For me the rebuilding has not started yet until members of the old kings are gone and some of the vets are gone too. And we start with some new young faces.

???

the only guys remaining from the "old kings" are mike bibby and brad miller, and brad hasn't even been around in kingsland all that long. i guess you can throw in corliss, too, as a guy who has been in a kings uniform at two separate occasions during his career, but other than that, everyone else is gone. GP is rebuilding this team, make no mistake about it. he's just doing it in the most careful and conservative way possible, which only gives the fans a very mediocre team to root for, at best. there are fiscal reasons for his recent conservatism, and part of it is simply his nature. it's gonna take either an impact lottery pick or a big time trade to see significant change. neither seems very likely at this point. what does seem likely is a continued manifestation of this stumbling kings team that only occasionally shows flashes of its potential...and that'll be enough for a middling draft pick.

 

[KingKong]

???

the only guys remaining from the "old kings" are mike bibby and brad miller, and brad hasn't even been around in kingsland all that long. i guess you can throw in corliss, too, as a guy who has been in a kings uniform at two separate occasions during his career, but other than that, everyone else is gone. GP is rebuilding this team, make no mistake about it. he's just doing it in the most careful and conservative way possible, which only gives the fans a very mediocre team to root for, at best. there are fiscal reasons for his recent conservatism, and part of it is simply his nature. it's gonna take either an impact lottery pick or a big time trade to see significant change. neither seems very likely at this point. what does seem likely is a continued manifestation of this stumbling kings team that only occasionally shows flashes of its potential...and that'll be enough for a middling draft pick.

You read my mind Padrino. It's just a shame that we have quite a good group of players (Bibby, Martin, Artest, Brad and 6th men SAR and Salmons) but no superstar to take us to another level. I hate seeing these talented players going to waste in a losing effort. Perhaps we don't even need a superstar and just a defensive BIG. Who knows? But I hate the current brand of basketball we're playing at the moment.

Granted we are banged up right now, playing some of the toughest teams in the league and perhaps we can turn it around, but I don't see us beating those teams even if we are healthy and playing together. Petrie is most definitely rebuilding; I don't think this can be the final product. Something is missing.

However, I was also thinking, talent- wise, I think we are just as good as the Utah Jazz, but look at where they are right now. That only stems from one place and that's effort, night in and night out.

 

[fnordius]

Looking back over the NBA champions of the last 20 years, about the only one which didn't obviously draft their star player was the most recent Detroit championship team, because they didn't have any clear star player. Lakers were ambiguous because they had two.

Wade, drafted. Duncan, drafted. Kobe, drafted. MJ, drafted. Hakeem, drafted. Isiah, drafted. Joe Dumars, drafted. James Worthy, drafted. Magic Johnson, drafted. Larry Bird, drafted. Basically the only arguable exceptions since the ABA was assimilated were Shaq and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

That's pretty few and far between.

 

[GoGoGadget]

For me the rebuilding has not started yet until members of the old kings are gone and some of the vets are gone too. And we start with some new young faces.

The old Kings ARE gone.

That's the problem. We're stuck knee deep in rebuilding effort quicksand because someone started and then got too chicken to finish the job.

 

[nbrans]

The old Kings ARE gone.

That's the problem. We're stuck knee deep in rebuilding effort quicksand because someone started and then got too chicken to finish the job.

Why do people think rebuilding is finished? I mean, do you really think Petrie is sitting at his desk with his feet up saying, "Yup! That's your 2006-2007 NBA Champions! I'm not going to even bother trying to improve this team!"

Rebuilding takes time. It's not done yet.

 

[Bricklayer]

Why do people think rebuilding is finished? I mean, do you really think Petrie is sitting at his desk with his feet up saying, "Yup! That's your 2006-2007 NBA Champions! I'm not going to even bother trying to improve this team!"

Rebuilding takes time. It's not done yet.

I think he may eventually be forced to rebuild. Or get fired.

I also think its perfectly obvious that he's half assed it to this point based on some rather frightening miscalculations about how good we were going to be over the last few years. Rebuilding may take time. The tearing down part does not unless you either don't know what you're doing or have a competing agenda.

 

[nbrans]

I think he may eventually be forced to rebuild. Or get fired.

I also think its perfectly obvious that he's half assed it to this point based on some rather frightening miscalculations about how good we were going to be over the last few years. Rebuilding may take time. The tearing down part does not unless you either don't know what you're doing or have a competing agenda.

Since the Webber trade (which, for the purposes of this discussion let's just start tabula rasa), what has Petrie done wrong? I mean, I know you think it's as easy as just trading players for high draft picks so I can forgive you for your thoughts on Petrie. If you think it's as easy as just snapping your fingers and getting a high draft pick, no wonder you don't like Petrie. If it were that easy we all could be GMs. But Petrie's draft picks have been good, the free agents (SAR, Salmons) have been good for their money, he plucked Price out of obscurity, we know Petrie has been trying to solve the interior issue (almost traded KT, tried to get Przybilla, tried to get Wilcox). Oh yeah, and add traded for Ron Artest to the list.

I mean, you and I may disagree on philsophies of rebuilding. I think the track record of tearing it all down and starting from scratch is a total crapshoot. If you look at the championship teams who got their superstar through the draft, most of them were only bad for one year (Miami, San Antonio) or weren't that bad to begin with (Lakers). Sure you have the Rockets and Jordan Bulls, but it took years and years and years.

The Kings have some good things going, it's not an old team. Petrie built one contender, and that took years. I think he deserves more than a season and a half to complete this rebuilding project.

 

[fnordius]

Here's my attempt at covering the post-Webber transactions. My conclusions about how good they were are extreme oversimplifications (yes, I KNOW he was cutting payroll, slightly and slowly) and strictly my own opinion. I am not going to defend any of them.

Webber-> Thomas/Skinner/Williamson: arguably bad
Songaila-> nobody: questionable
House-> nobody: questionable
Stojakovic-> Artest: done over his head, seemingly against his wishes
Christie-> Mobley-> nobody: ??? bought a year, then moot
Wallace-> nobody: bad
nobody-> SAR: good for the price
Jackson-> Wells -> nobody: ??? bought a year, then moot
nobody-> Garcia: decent pick among uninspiring choices
Skinner-> Potapenko/Moniya: questionable
nobody-> Price: good while it lasts
nobody-> Hart: less than brilliant
Amundson-> nobody: DL might have been a better idea (our DL team SUCKS)
Woods-> nobody: questionable
Williams-> nobody: highly questionable
nobody-> Taylor: bad so far
nobody-> Douby: ???
nobody-> Salmons: high priced, but looks OK so far
Moniya-> nobody: ???
nobody-> everybody else-> nobody: mateen (This covers Lonnie Jones, Erik Daniels, Jamal Sampson, Anwar Ferguson, Luis Flores, Dan Langhi, Ricky Paulding, Eric Sandrin, etc.)

Overall, I'd call it a fairly mixed record.

 

[nbrans]

The big negatives are losing Mobley and Bonzi for nothing, which sucked. Although really, getting even a half season of Mobley and erasing Doug's contract was a smart move given that Doug was d-o-n-e. And we all know what happened with Bonzi -- although really, at this point Salmons is looking like a really smart move that salvaged that situation.

So really that equation is:
Christie (i.e. nothing) -> nothing
Bobby/Ostertag->Bonzi->Salmons, which, to me, looks pretty darn good at this point.

 

[BawLa]

And likewise the "new direction" didn't begin until a new coach was named. I predict new faces, but will they necessarily be young? I don't know. I think the mode now is building around Ron Artest, Mike Bibby, and Brad Miller. That may change some in the near future or not. I would put my money on may.

Exactly. For as close as we came to a championship we have to come down a bit before we can go back up. Some people around here can't understand that concept.

 

[Troy]

The big negatives are losing Mobley and Bonzi for nothing, which sucked. Although really, getting even a half season of Mobley and erasing Doug's contract was a smart move given that Doug was d-o-n-e. And we all know what happened with Bonzi -- although really, at this point Salmons is looking like a really smart move that salvaged that situation.

So really that equation is:
Christie (i.e. nothing) -> nothing
Bobby/Ostertag->Bonzi->Salmons, which, to me, looks pretty darn good at this point.

Yeah, but the talent bleed had been pretty substantial. I know you cannot turn back time and players get old, but Hedo and Wallace were good young guys that I wish we had on the team. Our bench has really gotten weak, our lack of bigs is probably one of the worst in the NBA. I just am so envious of teams like Dallas and SA especially who can bring in a sub and there isn't a huge downgrade if one at all...just another tool in their arsenal for the job at hand. We have some pretty crappy tools in our straw hut!

 

[nbrans]

Yeah, but the talent bleed had been pretty substantial. I know you cannot turn back time and players get old, but Hedo and Wallace were good young guys that I wish we had on the team. Our bench has really gotten weak, our lack of bigs is probably one of the worst in the NBA. I just am so envious of teams like Dallas and SA especially who can bring in a sub and there isn't a huge downgrade if one at all...just another tool in their arsenal for the job at hand. We have some pretty crappy tools in our straw hut!

ok, but Hedo was part of the Brad Miller trade. I don't even want to get into the expansion draft except to say that the idea that the Kings could/should have kept Wallace is Fantasyland Central for Kingsfans.com.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think he may eventually be forced to rebuild. Or get fired.

I also think its perfectly obvious that he's half assed it to this point based on some rather frightening miscalculations about how good we were going to be over the last few years. Rebuilding may take time. The tearing down part does not unless you either don't know what you're doing or have a competing agenda.

Since the Webber trade (which, for the purposes of this discussion let's just start tabula rasa), what has Petrie done wrong? I mean, I know you think it's as easy as just trading players for high draft picks so I can forgive you for your thoughts on Petrie. If you think it's as easy as just snapping your fingers and getting a high draft pick, no wonder you don't like Petrie. If it were that easy we all could be GMs. But Petrie's draft picks have been good, the free agents (SAR, Salmons) have been good for their money, he plucked Price out of obscurity, we know Petrie has been trying to solve the interior issue (almost traded KT, tried to get Przybilla, tried to get Wilcox). Oh yeah, and add traded for Ron Artest to the list.

I call straw man here: I fail to see how whether or not it's an easy job has anything to do with whether or not he's put forth a sincere effort at doing his job. THAT is the contention, not whether "anyone can do it," but whether HE'S done it, to the best of HIS ability. I oppose that point of view for the simple reason that taking your argument on its face requires me to take it on faith that Petrie is doing the best job he can do, which I don't.

Whether or not the job is "easy" should only be relevant if you believe that Petrie is making a sincere effort at rebuilding, and if you believe that the real reason why we have the players that we have on the team is because this is the best he could do... And I don't believe it: for one thing, any effort to truly rebuild the team that doesn't involve getting rid of Bibby and Miller isn't really a sincere effort at rebuilding. Hell, if Petrie was serious about rebuilding, he probably wouldn't have traded for Artest in the first place, but rather let BP walk. He traded a "big name" in the prime of his career for another "big name" in the prime of his career. That's not rebuilding, that's reloading. And the problem with that is that Petrie is trying to "reload" with the wrong kind of talent.

It's just like your (presumably) rhetorical question: what has Petrie done wrong since the Webber trade? Well, that kind of depends on whether or not you think that Petrie has been moving the team in the right direction since he traded Webber... And I don't. I think that, when Petrie decided to move Webber, he should have been making a move to start over. And, by start over, I mean erase the Etch-A-Sketch and start from scratch. But he didn't do that; instead, he's kept tinkering with the team that he had, trying to add in pieces around our laughable "core," in the hopes that if he tinkers with the machine enough, it'll start working again. But, it hasn't worked. And it's not going to work.

And it is for that reason that I say that Petrie is doing a half-assed job: I DON'T believe that he's doing his best; I actually believe that he's happy with the status quo, and that's content with making moves that allow us to tread water. The way I see it, he's either doing a half-assed job of rebuilding by not tearing the team down and starting over, or he's doing a half-assed job of reloading by never addressing the teams deficiencies.

And I don't like the idea of the GM of my team doing a half-assed job. Teaching isn't easy; teachers don't get a free pass for doing a half-assed job. And GM's shouldn't, either.

 

[vladetomiller]

Out of those teams 2 have won the championship. Based around the fact that they brought in a HUGE FA or made a HUGE trade or trades. i.e. Heat w/o Shaq are a borderline lotto team. The Spurs picked all their guys in the draft but with late 1st rounders, not lotto picks.

Those teams didn't build from the draft. I think it's safe to say we have about 2 top lotto pick type players in Bibby and Artest. I don't see a reason to gamble them away for a lotto pick and hope it becomes somewhat as good as these guys. If they were old maybe but they are 28 and 27!

Thats a big mistake that everyone makes when Shaq is on a team and not playing, they think that the team would be a lottery team without Shaq. Problem is while Shaq is on the roster you build the team differently and when he is injured and not playing the team really suffers for that time.

1. Do you think udonis Haslem and Michael Doleac will really be their starting bigs or would they start for any team in the league

2. you are taking away 25-30 mil in salary out and expecting that team to compete with a team that supposedly has that extra 25 mil on the floor for them.

3. Because Shaq is on the team you dont expect other bigs who can score on their own or defend (atleast occupy ) the paint as he can. When he is out you get a gaping hole in the middle that the other teams will take advantage of

4. Defensive schemes are built around Shaq and when he is not there you will need to adjust and refine the strategy (again read point 1 )

5. Offense also needs to be tinkered and Wade might be good enough to make 4 or 5 highlight reel plays a game but he cannot do everything and needs his team to contribute on offense and for that the system needs to work with the right personnel.

for example throw the ball to low post, expect double team and have strong side three point shooter on the corner - option not available since there is no double team on the low post

other option, if no double team, cut the passer to the baseline for a pass for a layup - Not available, low post defender covering the pass and is not worried about doleac or haslem making a low post move

other option - kick it out to weak side and rotate the ball - if shaq was in the weakside defender would have been paying attention to his move to come in for a double if he made a low post move, now he is focussing on his man and it is not an easy pass for a score but a general catch and create

Wade with the other players who were dealt for Shaq did make the playoffs three years ago and Wade has gotten better after that so I dont agree with you assesment that they are a lottery team. This team with Shaq on the bench and not playing will also make the playoffs