[Game] 39/82: Kings @ Bulls 12 JAN 2025, 12:30pm PT/3:30pm ET

[iowamcnabb]

They have multiple elite wing defenders

and most of them are guard sized. Even Jalen Williams is not your typical 6’8 wing defender, he is 6’5.

 

[twslam07]

Yeah, but I think the main objective would be to get Keon in the game for starter like minutes, which Doug has been doing. Whether Keon starts or is the first guard off the bench is moot. Monk has paid his dues and DDR is still playing at an All-Star level. You don’t necessarily want to mess with the mojo at this point in the season. I have confidence that Doug will pull the right strings. I think Doug has everyone buying in to their roles right now.

We need to maintain that delicate balance of ego, minutes and winning. We can worry about shuffling the starting lineup if things start to stagnate later.

Yeah it’s frustrating because I’m sure this entire starting lineup thing has “ego” written all over it.

It was reported that Brown approached DeRozan about coming off the bench, and I can only assume that wasn’t received very well by DeRozan. Why would we expect that same message to go over differently with Christie?

Monk has been vocal that his preference is to start, that he’s wanted to start, etc., and now after 2 years of not starting, he just recently got his first taste of being the starting SG of the Sacramento Kings. I could see it not going over so well if we relegated him back to the bench so soon after getting his opportunity to start.

I’m going to make 2 predictions as it relates to this…

1. The starting lineup will only change if we go through a rough patch this season
2. If we do change the starting lineup, it’ll be Monk moved to the bench. Not DeRozan.
   

It sucks because I think most of us see that Ellis starting over Monk would be better if all variables are held constant, but the simple move of moving Monk out of the starting lineup could change a variable and impact the vibes of the team which could spiral into a worse outcome than if we would have just let Monk continue to start.

I know I have mentioned this before (and I saw Slim mentioned it in this thread as well), but I’d be open to selling high on Monk and explore trades that send him out for frontcourt help. It’s going to be really important for us going forward to get our defenders on the floor for a lot of the game, and with Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis in the starting/closing lineup, we should still have a lot of firepower offensively to get the job done. Not to mention someone like Carter could easily keep growing their offensive game and be another secondary scorer/playmaker to lean on.

 

[SacTownKid]

I know you're high on Carter like most of us, but do you have him jumping Keon as the potential best starter fit this early?

I don't know about this early, long term yes. He's by far the most complete player outside of the Kings stars. Carter I think is already ahead of where many thought he would be as a primary ball handler. The reason they went with Monk and Fox is it adds that secondary ball handler. Carter right now is effecting the game as a role/glue player, but he's also showing the ability to handle the ball when pressure comes. Not to mention productivity. Carter isn't just doing things that don't show up in the stat sheets, he's getting boards, he's drawing and kicking quite effectively, he's clamping down and yes, able to switch on a Giddey or a THT. Keon looks more like a true 3 and D role player, Carter is something else. That something else is why he was at one point considered a top 8 pick. They need to see Carter and Fox more because the more reps he can get on catch and shoot the more certain you can be about his fit with Fox and vice versa. Keon might end up being a better fit because of his shooting, who knows. If Carter's catch and shoot abilities from college translate, I don't see this even being a contest. Remember when people would say "man, if you could just combine these two guys they'd be perfect!". Well, here you go.

 

[Tetsujin]

and most of them are guard sized. Even Jalen Williams is not your typical 6’8 wing defender, he is 6’5.

Yeah, Lu Dort is legitimately shorter than Keon Ellis

 

[Jdbraver137]

Yeah it’s frustrating because I’m sure this entire starting lineup thing has “ego” written all over it.

It was reported that Brown approached DeRozan about coming off the bench, and I can only assume that wasn’t received very well by DeRozan. Why would we expect that same message to go over differently with Christie?

Monk has been vocal that his preference is to start, that he’s wanted to start, etc., and now after 2 years of not starting, he just recently got his first taste of being the starting SG of the Sacramento Kings. I could see it not going over so well if we relegated him back to the bench so soon after getting his opportunity to start.

I’m going to make 2 predictions as it relates to this…

1. The starting lineup will only change if we go through a rough patch this season
2. If we do change the starting lineup, it’ll be Monk moved to the bench. Not DeRozan.
   

It sucks because I think most of us see that Ellis starting over Monk would be better if all variables are held constant, but the simple move of moving Monk out of the starting lineup could change a variable and impact the vibes of the team which could spiral into a worse outcome than if we would have just let Monk continue to start.

I know I have mentioned this before (and I saw Slim mentioned it in this thread as well), but I’d be open to selling high on Monk and explore trades that send him out for frontcourt help. It’s going to be really important for us going forward to get our defenders on the floor for a lot of the game, and with Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis in the starting/closing lineup, we should still have a lot of firepower offensively to get the job done. Not to mention someone like Carter could easily keep growing their offensive game and be another secondary scorer/playmaker to lean on.

Not sure about derozan but monk seems like a team player. He just wants to win. He gets the other players involved so I bet the other players like playing with him. With brown the team wasn’t winning so I get why monk would be adamant about starting but pair him with a finisher on the bench I’d think he would be game for that role.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Yeah, Lu Dort is legitimately shorter than Keon Ellis

but weighs probably ~50 pounds more

 

[reptilexcq2]

I don't know about this early, long term yes. He's by far the most complete player outside of the Kings stars. Carter I think is already ahead of where many thought he would be as a primary ball handler. The reason they went with Monk and Fox is it adds that secondary ball handler. Carter right now is effecting the game as a role/glue player, but he's also showing the ability to handle the ball when pressure comes. Not to mention productivity. Carter isn't just doing things that don't show up in the stat sheets, he's getting boards, he's drawing and kicking quite effectively, he's clamping down and yes, able to switch on a Giddey or a THT. Keon looks more like a true 3 and D role player, Carter is something else. That something else is why he was at one point considered a top 8 pick. They need to see Carter and Fox more because the more reps he can get on catch and shoot the more certain you can be about his fit with Fox and vice versa. Keon might end up being a better fit because of his shooting, who knows. If Carter's catch and shoot abilities from college translate, I don't see this even being a contest. Remember when people would say "man, if you could just combine these two guys they'd be perfect!". Well, here you go.

I haven't seen a combos of Carter and Keon on the court at the same time yet. I guess with both on the court, someone had to be benched...either Monk or DeRozan and Christie doesn't want that. But if one of these players struggle so bad, I hope to see both Carter and Keon on the court at the same time to see what they're like on the court. EVEN if that's not the case, I still wish to see both of them on the court for defensive purpose when A STOP is needed to win game? Like for example in the game tonight....there was a time out and I think 12 seconds left in the game w/ Bulls possession. Couldn't the Kings sub either Monk or DeRozan out for defensive purpose? Or is it within the rule that the lineups had to be same after time out?

 

[Telemachus]

Yeah, Lu Dort is legitimately shorter than Keon Ellis

The one listing I can find of Lu Dort without shoes is 6'2.75 with a 6'8 wingspan. Devin Carter is 6'2.25 with a 6'9 wingspan. Dort does have about 25+ lbs on him.

 

[twslam07]

I don't know about this early, long term yes. He's by far the most complete player outside of the Kings stars. Carter I think is already ahead of where many thought he would be as a primary ball handler. The reason they went with Monk and Fox is it adds that secondary ball handler. Carter right now is effecting the game as a role/glue player, but he's also showing the ability to handle the ball when pressure comes. Not to mention productivity. Carter isn't just doing things that don't show up in the stat sheets, he's getting boards, he's drawing and kicking quite effectively, he's clamping down and yes, able to switch on a Giddey or a THT. Keon looks more like a true 3 and D role player, Carter is something else. That something else is why he was at one point considered a top 8 pick. They need to see Carter and Fox more because the more reps he can get on catch and shoot the more certain you can be about his fit with Fox and vice versa. Keon might end up being a better fit because of his shooting, who knows. If Carter's catch and shoot abilities from college translate, I don't see this even being a contest. Remember when people would say "man, if you could just combine these two guys they'd be perfect!". Well, here you go.

I see the same thing with Carter.

When you watch him, you can just see the flashes and potential he has as a ball handler, scorer, passer, etc. It’s not that Ellis is bad offensively. He’s not. But with Carter, you can see a path for him to become a 15-18 PPG secondary scorer/playmaker in this league (vs. those 10-12 PPG 3&D role players like Ellis).

Now I don’t think I’d bet on Carter being a better shooter than Ellis. I mean…how many players in this league shoot the 3 at a 41.6% clip on 6.0 3PA per 36 min for their career? But I do think he’ll at least be a good shooter (~37%).

Essentially, if he lives up to his potential, you’re probably looking at someone with these attributes…

• 15-18 PPG scorer
• 4-5 APG
• 5-7 RPG
• 1-1.5 SPG
• 0.7-1.0 BPG
• 37% 3PT shooter on good volume
• Elite POA defender
• Strong enough to not get bullied on defense by strong 2s & 3s

That’s a heck of a player and he’s be a terrific fit at SG next to Fox long term. And as I type this, I sort of see him as having the potential to become someone like Jalen Suggs. A defensive monster who can still score a bit, space the floor, and handle some playmaking duties.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

and most of them are guard sized. Even Jalen Williams is not your typical 6’8 wing defender, he is 6’5.

They have Chet a DPOY candidate in his rookie season we don’t neither does 29 other teams they also don’t have any bad defenders no matter the size

 

[Double-K]

Fox actually looks decent defensively when another good defender is with him in the backcourt. I agree in principle that the Fox/Monk backcourt is probably not the move. I'm going to zig where a lot of people here seem to be zagging and say that Monk is much more replaceable than Fox, and it might be a good idea to sell high on him.

If there is a deal out there to get us a respectible wing, Cam Johnson for instance, that requires Monk as a piece. I'd give him up in a heartbeat.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

If there is a deal out there to get us a respectible wing, Cam Johnson for instance, that requires Monk as a piece. I'd give him up in a heartbeat.

Monk has one of the best contracts in the league no way I give him up for Cam rather give them two firsts then adding monk

 

[twslam07]

Not sure about derozan but monk seems like a team player. He just wants to win. He gets the other players involved so I bet the other players like playing with him. With brown the team wasn’t winning so I get why monk would be adamant about starting but pair him with a finisher on the bench I’d think he would be game for that role.

The point is that he’s been vocal about starting regardless of how the team was performing. Now that he’s been promoted to the starting lineup, it’s going to be difficult to put that genie back in the bottle unless the team goes through a rough patch (or a major trade occurs).

Also, my point is that I don’t know if I’d prefer him to close even if he doesn’t start. Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis is a lot of offense. Adding in Ellis/Carter and Murray between those 3 make a lot of sense. Have Ellis/Carter, Murray, and Fox (since he tends to dial it up more in these moments) lock up the opposing offense down the stretch and then let Fox and DeRozan cook off action with Sabonis to bring us home offensively.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The point is that he’s been vocal about starting regardless of how the team was performing. Now that he’s been promoted to the starting lineup, it’s going to be difficult to put that genie back in the bottle unless the team goes through a rough patch (or a major trade occurs).

Also, my point is that I don’t know if I’d prefer him to close even if he doesn’t start. Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis is a lot of offense. Adding in Ellis/Carter and Murray between those 3 make a lot of sense. Have Ellis/Carter, Murray, and Fox (since he tends to dial it up more in these moments) lock up the opposing offense down the stretch and then let Fox and DeRozan cook off action with Sabonis to bring us home offensively.

As a head coach, no matter how vocal a guy is, you have to do what you believe is best for the team. Monk wouldn't turn into a locker room cancer or anything, if he was moved back to 6th man.

If Christie is convinced that Monk is best as a starter right now, then fine, stick with it. But if he doesn't, then he needs to make the move for the betterment of the team going forward

 

[captain bill]

If there is a deal out there to get us a respectible wing, Cam Johnson for instance, that requires Monk as a piece. I'd give him up in a heartbeat.

Can’t discount Fox & Monk’s relationship. If we ship Monk out after he did us a huge solid by signing a friendly deal before FA opened that massively increases the odds of Fox walking

 

[NiNetNiNe]

Historically, we’ve been terrible at super early games. It was touch and go for a minute there, but the Kings turned it on at the end of the game. They clamped down their defense and got that win. We are never losing baby! 63-19 here we come!

 

[iowamcnabb]

Trading Monk would be really hard. I would think there is a decent chance one of Fox, Deebo or Monk is not on the team next year depending how things go

 

[sactowndog]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Keon should be in the starting lineup. That's been set in stone since the summer. Something Christie is going to have to come to terms with and get the buy-in from either DDR or Monk to go to the bench.

Starting isn’t the only issue …. It’s minutes for both Keon and Carter. There just aren’t enough minutes for all our guards.

we have 4 players total 6’8” or taller.
Keegan
Lyles
Sabonis
Len

Jones as a 2 way.

Hard to find many teams with so few players 6’8” or over.

 

[SacTownKid]

I see the same thing with Carter.

When you watch him, you can just see the flashes and potential he has as a ball handler, scorer, passer, etc. It’s not that Ellis is bad offensively. He’s not. But with Carter, you can see a path for him to become a 15-18 PPG secondary scorer/playmaker in this league (vs. those 10-12 PPG 3&D role players like Ellis).

Now I don’t think I’d bet on Carter being a better shooter than Ellis. I mean…how many players in this league shoot the 3 at a 41.6% clip on 6.0 3PA per 36 min for their career? But I do think he’ll at least be a good shooter (~37%).

Essentially, if he lives up to his potential, you’re probably looking at someone with these attributes…

• 15-18 PPG scorer
• 4-5 APG
• 5-7 RPG
• 1-1.5 SPG
• 0.7-1.0 BPG
• 37% 3PT shooter on good volume
• Elite POA defender
• Strong enough to not get bullied on defense by strong 2s & 3s

That’s a heck of a player and he’s be a terrific fit at SG next to Fox long term. And as I type this, I sort of see him as having the potential to become someone like Jalen Suggs. A defensive monster who can still score a bit, space the floor, and handle some playmaking duties.

And conversely, I think if they moved Fox, he's also in theory a great fit next to Monk that has the ability to fill in some of the void you would have without Fox. In particular in drawing contact which we're seeing flashes of here and there for sure. Per 36 he's already right behind the Kings big 3 in free throw attempts, with Isaac Jones getting an honorable mention above him. Orlando is 3rd but that's in limited stretches so you can't really rely on that. Complete players typically find a way.

 

[twslam07]

As a head coach, no matter how vocal a guy is, you have to do what you believe is best for the team. Monk wouldn't turn into a locker room cancer or anything, if he was moved back to 6th man.

If Christie is convinced that Monk is best as a starter right now, then fine, stick with it. But if he doesn't, then he needs to make the move for the betterment of the team going forward

But that’s sort of the rub, isn’t it?

It might be the right team if all of these guys are robots, but a decision that, on paper, is best for the team could have a negative impact on the team dependent on how the players receive that decision.

The coach has to think through the Xs and Os just as much as has to think through team dynamics & morale.

 

[upinsmoke]

If there is a deal out there to get us a respectible wing, Cam Johnson for instance, that requires Monk as a piece. I'd give him up in a heartbeat.

I certainly would not.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

But that’s sort of the rub, isn’t it?

It might be the right team if all of these guys are robots, but a decision that, on paper, is best for the team could have a negative impact on the team dependent on how the players receive that decision.

The coach has to think through the Xs and Os just as much as has to think through team dynamics & morale.

Sure, I just don't agree that whether a guy is loud or quiet should sway his decision for what he thinks the the best lineups are.

That said, Christie is pushing all the right buttons and I trust his instincts for the team

 

[sactowndog]

Trading Monk would be really hard. I would think there is a decent chance one of Fox, Deebo or Monk is not on the team next year depending how things go

I also think what you would get for Monk would be limited and he is on a really good contract. Monk’s value per dollar is really high.

 

[SacTownKid]

Trading Monk would be really hard. I would think there is a decent chance one of Fox, Deebo or Monk is not on the team next year depending how things go

Certainly it's not like DeRozan is someone that is likely even in the league in a few years. Maybe he is, he has the game to last but he's in the twilight of his big game days. As for Monk, for the time being success will be the guide. At some point teams will start to figure out the Kings and then Christie will know. Teams figured them out before. If Monk is a 37 mpg player then it will be proven out. He might be, but not next to Fox. He might be next to Fox, we'll see. Personally, I'm not sure about it because we already saw a glimpse of a team carried by a Fox/Monk combo in the playoffs and that streakyness was all or nothing then, and it would probably be the same now.

With teams like the Celtics, Thunder, Cavs, etc. balance does matter. You likely can't just throw out an all star combination of offense and expect rings. It's a different league than the Warriors off and on era of dominance. The year the Kings made the playoffs there were 5 teams playing at over 100 in pace, the Kings being highest at 103. Last year, not a single team was in the 100's. The highest was 96. All offense probably isn't going to fly anymore and this is mainly why Brown got himself fired. He didn't catch up with the times. Monte specifically mentioned Carter being the type of player you see on playoff teams. He's not wrong. If he pans out they can be the difference between rings or not.

 

[Caccia]

Yup. It’s why I think the Kings are probably more in the market for a backup big than they are a wing. Getting a good/great backup center like Jonas or Vuc or Time Lord allows the Kings to eat some of the forward minutes with Trey.

I like Nic Richards. Monk took him under his wing as a rookie, and they worked well together in the pick-and-roll. He is also a cheaper target by far than, say, Cameron Johnson.

 

[twslam07]

I also think what you would get for Monk would be limited and he is on a really good contract. Monk’s value per dollar is really high.

If his contract is a good value, than that holds value in a trade, right?

The drop off in impact between Fox and Monk is significant, and if we trade Fox, I don’t really see who’s available at the wing/forward spot that will replace that impact.

Posting these again for reference…

Overall
EPM: Fox = +2.7 / Monk = +0.4
DARKO: Fox = +3.5 / Monk = -0.4
LEBRON: Fox = +1.7 / Monk = +0.9
RAPM: Fox = +2.1 / Monk = -1.6
VPM: Fox = +2.3 / Monk = +0.4

Offense
O-EPM: Fox = +2.6 / Monk = +1.3
O-DARKO: Fox = +3.5 / Monk = +0.7
O-LEBRON: Fox = +2.1 / Monk = +0.9
O-RAPM: Fox = +2.4 / Monk = +0.4
O-VPM: Fox = +2.4 / Monk = +0.9

Defense
D-EPM: Fox = +0.1 / Monk = -0.9
D-DARKO: Fox = +0.0 / Monk = -1.1
D-LEBRON: Fox = -0.3 / Monk = -0.1
D-RAPM: Fox = -0.3 / Monk = -2.0
D-VPM: Fox = -0.1 / Monk = -0.5

 

[The_Jamal]

I see the same thing with Carter.

When you watch him, you can just see the flashes and potential he has as a ball handler, scorer, passer, etc. It’s not that Ellis is bad offensively. He’s not. But with Carter, you can see a path for him to become a 15-18 PPG secondary scorer/playmaker in this league (vs. those 10-12 PPG 3&D role players like Ellis).

Now I don’t think I’d bet on Carter being a better shooter than Ellis. I mean…how many players in this league shoot the 3 at a 41.6% clip on 6.0 3PA per 36 min for their career? But I do think he’ll at least be a good shooter (~37%).

Essentially, if he lives up to his potential, you’re probably looking at someone with these attributes…

• 15-18 PPG scorer
• 4-5 APG
• 5-7 RPG
• 1-1.5 SPG
• 0.7-1.0 BPG
• 37% 3PT shooter on good volume
• Elite POA defender
• Strong enough to not get bullied on defense by strong 2s & 3s

That’s a heck of a player and he’s be a terrific fit at SG next to Fox long term. And as I type this, I sort of see him as having the potential to become someone like Jalen Suggs. A defensive monster who can still score a bit, space the floor, and handle some playmaking duties.

Suggs is a great ceiling comp. Another guy who's never the "best" player on a team, but would immediately start and make every single team in the league better (don't fact check me on the start for every team).

 

[captain bill]

Starting isn’t the only issue …. It’s minutes for both Keon and Carter. There just aren’t enough minutes for all our guards.

we have 4 players total 6’8” or taller.
Keegan
Lyles
Sabonis
Len

Jones as a 2 way.

Hard to find many teams with so few players 6’8” or over.

The knock on Domas when we first traded for him was that he can’t play next to other bigs, so it’s worth asking if there’s some strategy in the FO not loading up on 7 footers. And when Domas is gobbling up 20+ boards there may be something to giving him more of the post to patrol on his own

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Fox isn’t getting traded jesus


We have a chance to go 3-0 Tuesday on a trip we all thought 1-2 was best, Milwaukee is coming off a loss, has a longer travel then we do and there defense won’t be able to contain monk/fox. Another game where being small really won’t hurt outside of Giannis going nuclear

 

[twslam07]

Starting isn’t the only issue …. It’s minutes for both Keon and Carter. There just aren’t enough minutes for all our guards

Well we fundamentally disagree that Carter can flex up to play SF for stretches (particularly against backup SFs) so I’m sure we’ll disagree with my minutes rotation. Below is what I’d go with assuming we trade Huerter for a backup C or something…

PG - Fox (34) / Monk (14)
SG - Ellis (28) / Monk (14) / Carter (6)
SF - DeRozan (30) / Murray (4) / Carter (14)
PF - Murray (26) / Lyles (22)
C - Sabonis (34) / Len or New C (14)

Fox = 34 min
Sabonis = 34 min
DeRozan = 30 min
Murray = 30 min
Monk = 28 min
Ellis = 28 min
Lyles = 22 min
Carter = 20 min
Len or New C = 14 min