This is where we're just never going to agree. I know it will change the offense for the worse in some ways. It will also change the defense for the better and I'm okay with that trade-off. I want a shot blocker on the floor so that we don't get punked by guards driving to the basket, fouling out Sabonis, and beating us at the FT line. This has been the formula that other top playoff teams (Milwaukee, Memphis, Boston, Phoenix) have used to beat us this season. I just disagree with your premise that we should only be looking at floor spacers for the starting lineup. There will be shooters to work in and out of the rotation throughout the game (Monk, Lyles, Edwards?, Vezenkov?) -- where we're really lacking is in tough, physical defenders -- especially near the basket.
Who Should We Sign? (2023 Off-Season)
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
I think where we disagree is that you’re okay with the tradeoff and I’m saying why settle for a tradeoff of that magnitude? Why not go out and find someone who…
Now that’s easier said than done. These types of players are somewhat rare and highly coveted but if we’re serious about taking the next step and becoming a contending team, it’s the type of player we should be after.
Based off that list of players I posted earlier, I’d say these are the players that would fall into that category:
I think all of those guys would be excellent fits and help address your concerns (some more than others) while still allowing our offensive ceiling to remain high.
But let’s put it another way...the Nuggets are #1 in the West right now with a “big 3” of Murray-Porter-Jokic. Nobody would claim any of those 3 are good defenders yet they are 15th in the league in Def Rtg. They have a great defender at PF (Gordon), a great defensive coach (Malone), a great defensive rebounder (Jokic), and a team that has played together for awhile (developing defensive chemistry). If we can add our "great PF defender" to the current roster, I don't see why we can't become at least average defensively considering Brown is also a great defensive coach, Sabonis is a great defensive rebounder, and our chemistry seems to be coming along quite nicely. The only difference is that Gordon is also a threat outside 10ft (unlike Okongwu) and can hit the three which allows the Nuggets to maintain their elite offense and produce a very healthy net rating.
- Has good size & length at PF
- Is a good, versatile defender
- Can help protect the rim a bit
- Can space the floor
Now that’s easier said than done. These types of players are somewhat rare and highly coveted but if we’re serious about taking the next step and becoming a contending team, it’s the type of player we should be after.
Based off that list of players I posted earlier, I’d say these are the players that would fall into that category:
- Pascal Siakam
- Jerami Grant
- PJ Washington
- OG Anunoby
- Aleksej Pokusevski
- Jaden McDaniels
- Patrick Williams
I think all of those guys would be excellent fits and help address your concerns (some more than others) while still allowing our offensive ceiling to remain high.
But let’s put it another way...the Nuggets are #1 in the West right now with a “big 3” of Murray-Porter-Jokic. Nobody would claim any of those 3 are good defenders yet they are 15th in the league in Def Rtg. They have a great defender at PF (Gordon), a great defensive coach (Malone), a great defensive rebounder (Jokic), and a team that has played together for awhile (developing defensive chemistry). If we can add our "great PF defender" to the current roster, I don't see why we can't become at least average defensively considering Brown is also a great defensive coach, Sabonis is a great defensive rebounder, and our chemistry seems to be coming along quite nicely. The only difference is that Gordon is also a threat outside 10ft (unlike Okongwu) and can hit the three which allows the Nuggets to maintain their elite offense and produce a very healthy net rating.
It looks like that is possible. We could renegotiate the last year of his contract using the cap space we have and then extend him using that last year as the base of the contract extension.
Unless you're getting some sort of significant discount for Sabonis, I'm not sure I understand the logic though. This offseason (Sabonis makes $19.4 mil) and next offseason (Sabonis' cap hold is $29.1 mil) we have the ability to have ample cap space. If we utilize this year's cap space to renegotiate Sabonis, it eliminates our flexibility to make a move this offseason and if his extended contract is above $29.1 mil next offseason (he's eligible to make a max of $42.9 mil that year), we're cutting into our cap space/flexibility the following offseason.
In short, yeah you can likely extend him for an amount he'd agree to but you'd be limiting our flexibility and the ability to improve the roster the next two offseasons.
Unless you're getting some sort of significant discount for Sabonis, I'm not sure I understand the logic though. This offseason (Sabonis makes $19.4 mil) and next offseason (Sabonis' cap hold is $29.1 mil) we have the ability to have ample cap space. If we utilize this year's cap space to renegotiate Sabonis, it eliminates our flexibility to make a move this offseason and if his extended contract is above $29.1 mil next offseason (he's eligible to make a max of $42.9 mil that year), we're cutting into our cap space/flexibility the following offseason.
In short, yeah you can likely extend him for an amount he'd agree to but you'd be limiting our flexibility and the ability to improve the roster the next two offseasons.
Part of me still really wants to go after OG Anunoby this offseason.
He'd basically be the ideal fit at PF next to Sabonis and for this team:
If the trade was Holmes, Mitchell, & Picks for Anunoby. We'd have the ability to retain all of our FAs like Barnes, Lyles, Davis, & Metu if we wanted to. We also could use our exception on a FA backup C to strengthen the rotation further. We could technically go into next season with a team of:
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis / Dozier
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / Plumlee / Metu
That offense is still going to be top notch with the spacing from Huerter, Murray, and Anunoby surrounding Fox & Sabonis. Not to mention the bench is significantly improved. Monk & Barnes will likely both be competing for 6th man of the year while Davis & Lyles can give you a scoring punch as well. Plumlee gives you a backup C who can do the dirty work, protect the paint, clear the boards, and run a lot of the same offensive action that Sabonis does. And then you still have Edwards who's been very promising to end this season.
Let that team sit and marinade for a few years, let the young guys develop further, let the defensive schemes/rotations become 2nd nature, etc. and we may have something special on our hands.
He'd basically be the ideal fit at PF next to Sabonis and for this team:
- Great size/strength (232 lbs w/ only 6.8% body fat)
- Excellent length (7'2.25" wingspan and 8'11.5" standing reach)
- All-NBA caliber defender (currently leading the league in SPG too)
- Extremely versatile defender (guards any position)
- Can help protect the rim a bit (0.7 BLK per 36 min and .569 DefFG% on shots <6ft from the rim)
- Good floor spacer (.395 3P% on 5.5 3PA per 36 min and .465 Corner 3P% on 2.2 3PA per 36 min)
- Not just a stand in the corner offensive threat. His offensive game continues to grow (averages 17.1 PTS per 36 min on .593 TS%)
- Fits the core's timeline (25 years of age)
If the trade was Holmes, Mitchell, & Picks for Anunoby. We'd have the ability to retain all of our FAs like Barnes, Lyles, Davis, & Metu if we wanted to. We also could use our exception on a FA backup C to strengthen the rotation further. We could technically go into next season with a team of:
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis / Dozier
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / Plumlee / Metu
That offense is still going to be top notch with the spacing from Huerter, Murray, and Anunoby surrounding Fox & Sabonis. Not to mention the bench is significantly improved. Monk & Barnes will likely both be competing for 6th man of the year while Davis & Lyles can give you a scoring punch as well. Plumlee gives you a backup C who can do the dirty work, protect the paint, clear the boards, and run a lot of the same offensive action that Sabonis does. And then you still have Edwards who's been very promising to end this season.
Let that team sit and marinade for a few years, let the young guys develop further, let the defensive schemes/rotations become 2nd nature, etc. and we may have something special on our hands.
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I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think the Kings necessarily need to make a big splashy move to be title contenders next year.
If we re-sign Barnes and Lyles and bring in Sasha, all we really need is a quality back up center and for either/both Murray or Huerter to make a leap in production to a legit 2nd or 3rd scoring option (ie 18-20+ points per game). If the Kings can sign someone like Kevin Love as a back up center and Murray/Huerter makes the leap, I think the Kings will compete for a title for years to come.
I think team chemistry is way underrated. The golden era Kings weren’t title contenders just because of talent alone, but because they also had the best chemistry in the league, which is similar to what we are witnessing with this Kings team now.
If we re-sign Barnes and Lyles and bring in Sasha, all we really need is a quality back up center and for either/both Murray or Huerter to make a leap in production to a legit 2nd or 3rd scoring option (ie 18-20+ points per game). If the Kings can sign someone like Kevin Love as a back up center and Murray/Huerter makes the leap, I think the Kings will compete for a title for years to come.
I think team chemistry is way underrated. The golden era Kings weren’t title contenders just because of talent alone, but because they also had the best chemistry in the league, which is similar to what we are witnessing with this Kings team now.
Thinking through it more, I think Okogie is the answer for this off-season. Directly addresses our biggest need as a team and I think has developed into a truly elite defensive player. The defensive splits for PHX this year are pretty staggering and he's gotten "just" enough on offense where he isn't a total liability. Can plug him anywhere 2-4 and we get a massive upgrade defensively with a physical wing defender. Going to be 25 by next season too, so fits right in with the timeline of the rest of the core.
Also, has the Mike Brown connection through the Nigerian national team. We've seen that already play out where Monte/Brown are in sync with bringing in guys Brown is familiar with.
Also, has the Mike Brown connection through the Nigerian national team. We've seen that already play out where Monte/Brown are in sync with bringing in guys Brown is familiar with.
I think he's what we hope Kessler Edwards eventually develops into. Awesome physical 2-4 wing defender that knows his role and is out there to get garbage points and take/shoot C&S threes. His analytics are extremely good this season and that really does match the eye test with how he hard and effective he plays out on the court.
I kind of think of it like us going and finding our own GPII, Otto Porter, Kevon Looney type defensive role players that we desperately lack. I think Okogie is already there in that vein and Kessler can develop into that sort of rotation player as well.
I kind of think of it like us going and finding our own GPII, Otto Porter, Kevon Looney type defensive role players that we desperately lack. I think Okogie is already there in that vein and Kessler can develop into that sort of rotation player as well.
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I think we could go with either a SF or PF. I think for PF a PJ Washington or Jermai Grant would be nice. If we put Murray at PF then someone like Cam Johnson or maybe Kyle Kuzma who can play both SF and PF. Picking up someone like Naz Reid could be good as well. I don't know how viable any of these people are but of the free agents, I think those people would fit best.
I like OG but I just can't endorse trading Davion Mitchell. He's not much of a scorer right now but he's also only 2 years into his NBA career and he's a phenomenally hard worker and now has a great head coach to help guide him in his development. Mitchell has his limitations on defense because of his size but when it comes to the end of close games where a couple stops mean the difference between winning and losing, we need multiple defensive weapons that we can throw on the floor too. Also OG has an opt-out clause. He might only be a rental if next season doesn't go well. I'd rather wait and get him in free agency.
He will undoubtedly opt out (barring a significant injury) so he's essentially an expiring. You only give significant value for him if you have an indication that he'd sign an extension with us.
If we wait to go after Anunoby when he's a FA (2024 offseason), you're going to have to say goodbye to some key pieces/depth (vs. if we trade for him now and go over the cap to keep a lot of those pieces). I think we'd need at least ~$30 mil in cap space to have a chance at signing him (with the cap potentially rising to $171 mil for the 2025-26 season, we're likely to see some big money thrown around during the 2023 offseason and 2024 offseason). If that's the type of cap space we'd need to reserve, we could get there in a few ways:
Scenario #1
PG - Fox / Monk or Mitchell
SG - Huerter
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Anunoby
C - Sabonis
Picks - 2023 SAC 1st / 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Scenario #2
PG - Fox
SG - Huerter
SF - Murray / Barnes
PF - Anunoby
C - Sabonis
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Now compare those rosters to the rosters we'd have after trading multiple 1sts for Anunoby (Scenario #3) or trading Mitchell and multiple 1sts for Anunoby (Scenario #4) during the 2023 offseason:
Scenario #3
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Davis
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / MLE FA C
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Scenario #4
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / MLE FA C
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Obviously the rosters in scenario #3 and scenario #4 are much stronger considering it allows us to go over the cap to retain a lot of our current talent (vs. making cap space down the road to sign Anunoby). The one limitation of Scenario #3 and Scenario #4 is that our future assets would be tied up making it difficult to be in play for a future star (e.g., Mitchell, 2023 SAC 1st, & 2026 SAC 1st for Anunoby or 2023 SAC 1st, 2026 SAC 1st, & 2028 SAC 1st for Anunoby).
But let's say we did go with Scenario #1 (and we choose to retain Mitchell over Monk). Our 2024 1st will likely convey to ATL meaning that our 1sts are free'd up again immediately after the 2024 draft/before 2024 FA. Not only would we have Fox, Mitchell, Huerter, Murray, Edwards, Anunoby, Sabonis, & 2023 1st under contract as assets but we'd also be able to trade our 2025 1st, 2027 1st, 2029 1st, and 2031 1st to further upgrade the roster.
If we wait to go after Anunoby when he's a FA (2024 offseason), you're going to have to say goodbye to some key pieces/depth (vs. if we trade for him now and go over the cap to keep a lot of those pieces). I think we'd need at least ~$30 mil in cap space to have a chance at signing him (with the cap potentially rising to $171 mil for the 2025-26 season, we're likely to see some big money thrown around during the 2023 offseason and 2024 offseason). If that's the type of cap space we'd need to reserve, we could get there in a few ways:
Scenario #1
- Do not extend Sabonis early but keep his cap hold for the 2024 offseason
- Let Barnes, Davis, Len, Lyles, Metu, Dellavedova, & Dozier walk during the 2023 offseason (or resign them to a 1 year deal or 1+1 deal)
- Don't sign any FAs during the 2023 offsesaon for 2 or more years (1 year deals or 1+1 deals)
- Trade Holmes for cap space
- Trade Mitchell for cap space or let Monk walk in the 2024 offseason
PG - Fox / Monk or Mitchell
SG - Huerter
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Anunoby
C - Sabonis
Picks - 2023 SAC 1st / 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Scenario #2
- Do not extend Sabonis early but keep his cap hold for the 2024 offseason
- Resign Barnes toa $60 mil/4 year deal during the 2023 offseason
- Let Davis, Len, Lyles, Metu, Dellavedova, & Dozier walk during the 2023 offseason (or resign them to a 1 year deal or 1+1 deal)
- Don't sign any FAs during the 2023 offsesaon for 2 or more years (1 year deals or 1+1 deals)
- Trade Holmes, Mitchell, and our 2023 SAC 1st for cap space
- Let Monk & Edwards walk in the 2024 offseason
PG - Fox
SG - Huerter
SF - Murray / Barnes
PF - Anunoby
C - Sabonis
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Now compare those rosters to the rosters we'd have after trading multiple 1sts for Anunoby (Scenario #3) or trading Mitchell and multiple 1sts for Anunoby (Scenario #4) during the 2023 offseason:
Scenario #3
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Davis
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / MLE FA C
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Scenario #4
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Anunoby / Lyles
C - Sabonis / MLE FA C
Picks - 2023 IND 2nd / 2023 SAC 2nd / 2024 DAL 2nd
Obviously the rosters in scenario #3 and scenario #4 are much stronger considering it allows us to go over the cap to retain a lot of our current talent (vs. making cap space down the road to sign Anunoby). The one limitation of Scenario #3 and Scenario #4 is that our future assets would be tied up making it difficult to be in play for a future star (e.g., Mitchell, 2023 SAC 1st, & 2026 SAC 1st for Anunoby or 2023 SAC 1st, 2026 SAC 1st, & 2028 SAC 1st for Anunoby).
But let's say we did go with Scenario #1 (and we choose to retain Mitchell over Monk). Our 2024 1st will likely convey to ATL meaning that our 1sts are free'd up again immediately after the 2024 draft/before 2024 FA. Not only would we have Fox, Mitchell, Huerter, Murray, Edwards, Anunoby, Sabonis, & 2023 1st under contract as assets but we'd also be able to trade our 2025 1st, 2027 1st, 2029 1st, and 2031 1st to further upgrade the roster.
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I used to make posts like this. Now I don't really have the time or the energy but you have my respect! A lot of the guys who are free agents this summer on our roster aren't really in the rotation anyway. Dozier, Len, and Dellavedova have played less than 400 minutes combined over the course of the season. Terance Davis has a big game once a month or so but hasn't been an every game player. We probably will need to lose one of Lyles or Metu if we want to bring over Sasha Vezenkov. So that leaves Barnes as the guy we either need to replace or re-sign. I suspect Barnes is going to be too expensive to keep as a bench player. If we just want another floor spacer in the lineup, why not give that PF spot to Vezenkov? I don't know that Barnes is a good enough defender/shooter to warrant paying him $60 million or more to come off the bench for us.
I see your point with regard to trading and then extending someone like OG Anunoby before the salary cap goes up. We may be at the point where we have to trade multiple picks to get our final piece but that 2024 pick we already traded to Atlanta gets in the way of that doesn't it? The next first round pick we can offer somebody won't convey until 2026. I was hoping we could go after Anunoby or Jaylen Brown in 2024 but now that I think about it, both are going to be too expensive. That's why I've pivoted to looking for younger players who are not yet stars but hopefully will be during their next contract.
I see your point with regard to trading and then extending someone like OG Anunoby before the salary cap goes up. We may be at the point where we have to trade multiple picks to get our final piece but that 2024 pick we already traded to Atlanta gets in the way of that doesn't it? The next first round pick we can offer somebody won't convey until 2026. I was hoping we could go after Anunoby or Jaylen Brown in 2024 but now that I think about it, both are going to be too expensive. That's why I've pivoted to looking for younger players who are not yet stars but hopefully will be during their next contract.
The pick due to ATL gets in the way somewhat. You’d technically have to word it “2 years after the pick is conveyed to ATL” and/or “4 years after the pick is conveyed to ATL”
So the trade would be…
So the trade would be…
- Richaun Holmes
- Davion Mitchell
- 2023 SAC 1st (draft day so Stepien rule doesn’t apply)
- Future SAC 1st (2 years after 1st conveys to ATL)
- Richaun Holmes
- 2023 SAC 1st (draft day so Stepien rule doesn’t apply)
- Future SAC 1st 2 years after 1st conveys to ATL (2026-2028 SAC 1st)
- Future SAC 1st 4 years after 1st conveys to ATL (2028-2030 SAC 1st)
I think Grant or Kuzma are too expensive for us. But PJ is the guy I'd be willing to dangle our FRP for if CHA is actually trying to reset. PJ is going to want to get paid and it really doesn't make sense for them to try and win games.
And with them resigning Nic Richard's and their investment in Mark Williams, they're all but shutting the door on PJ versatility to play the 5. Our FRP and the Indy 2nd is a pretty good offer imo.
Obviously huge Naz fan if we can snake him for the MLE.
And with them resigning Nic Richard's and their investment in Mark Williams, they're all but shutting the door on PJ versatility to play the 5. Our FRP and the Indy 2nd is a pretty good offer imo.
Obviously huge Naz fan if we can snake him for the MLE.
I mean yeah, that's the only reason you would. Dray had a ton of super positive comments about Brown and I'm assuming would be more than willing to come in here and get everyone up to speed on how Brown's defensive system is actually supposed to be played.
You could do a lot of fun things with him next to Domas and then running the back-up 5 with Fox in that 2nd unit grouping.
Temp check: If you could 100% sign Barnes or Draymond for 3/60, who you taking? All years guaranteed.
You could do a lot of fun things with him next to Domas and then running the back-up 5 with Fox in that 2nd unit grouping.
Temp check: If you could 100% sign Barnes or Draymond for 3/60, who you taking? All years guaranteed.
At 3 for 60 I probably have to take a risk on Green but losing Barnes would be tough, he’s easy to root for.
I do think he ends up opting in because he is at a championship or bust stage of his career. He has openly admitted he can barely get up for regular season games so I don’t think he will chase the bag. Sac does make some sense for him though if Golden state wants to hand over the 4 to Kuminga
I do think he ends up opting in because he is at a championship or bust stage of his career. He has openly admitted he can barely get up for regular season games so I don’t think he will chase the bag. Sac does make some sense for him though if Golden state wants to hand over the 4 to Kuminga
Draymond Green. No chance it happens though.
Any time you get a chance at getting a player that can be a quarterback at both ends of the floor, you have to take it and run. The improvement on defense, rebounding, playmaking and toughness would be significant enough to offset the loss of the 3-point threat and iso scoring that Barnes brings.
I think we could still space the floor like back in those days when we had Vlade/Miller and Webber. Bring over Sasha to shore up the 3 point shooting, stagger the minutes such that either Domas or Draymond is on the floor at all times and watch opponents wilt under the offensive barrage. Imagine running into the screen walls set by Domas/Draymond and trying to defend shooters like Kevin, Keegan, Monk and Sasha.
The downside is that Draymond might punch his teammate in practice.
Any time you get a chance at getting a player that can be a quarterback at both ends of the floor, you have to take it and run. The improvement on defense, rebounding, playmaking and toughness would be significant enough to offset the loss of the 3-point threat and iso scoring that Barnes brings.
I think we could still space the floor like back in those days when we had Vlade/Miller and Webber. Bring over Sasha to shore up the 3 point shooting, stagger the minutes such that either Domas or Draymond is on the floor at all times and watch opponents wilt under the offensive barrage. Imagine running into the screen walls set by Domas/Draymond and trying to defend shooters like Kevin, Keegan, Monk and Sasha.
The downside is that Draymond might punch his teammate in practice.
Having the threat of getting punched might do wonders for this teams defense though, haha. Draymond is a person I fully expect to see Vivek linked to but on paper, him replacing Barnes probably isn't the way. Now Murray? Or Murray coming off the bench could work. Or going full on different and replacing both front court spots. Draymond is essentially Domas and both Huerter and Murray are basically Klay. The Warriors never even tempted a two Klay set up. They've always been pretty clear on having a scoring wing next to Klay even going as far as to shock everyone and place what many thought was way too much value on Wiggins as a replacement for KD. It could work but as is, the team would definitely look different and that puts a ton of pressure on someone else to starting generating fouls.
I'm somewhat wary of Draymond just because we have associations with the Warriors already (Vivek, Barnes, Coach Brown). That franchise has had unquestioned reign over Northern California for the last 10 years and I don't want anyone associating our success somehow with them. But that's a rather silly way to think and I'm sure I'd get over it. Isn't he already past his prime though and a bit of an injury risk? He missed 36 games last season.