Kings first round of coaching candidate interviews comes out

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I don't know if you answered this, but outside of benching Barnes (which I agree with, or at least keeping his minutes very very low), and playing Queta in a consistent 15+MPG role, what would you have done differently to "tank harder"? We were pretty much busting teams with our end of benchers already (Lyles, Jones, Metu, Jackson), saw our rookie who struggled for a good portion of the year just take over the team the last 12 games and DDV return to his pre-injury form. Holiday played, but he was pretty clearly the biggest tank commander of everyone and was really really bad to close out the year.
Sit out Barnes completely. Start the end of the bench guys, play Queta and other GLeague guys that I possibly can for 30-40+mins per game, even more if I had to. There were a lot of things we could've done to tank harder, we could've played our six worst guys for 40min and no one else. Basically what OKC did for example. But if the starting point is playing Barnes for almost 40min a game then we are very far from doing what we can to ensure the best possible draft position.

Also I would've started the tank a lot earlier but that has been out of the question for so long but thats also another thing we could've done to be smarter and give ourselves better chance in the future
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
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I don't know if you answered this, but outside of benching Barnes (which I agree with, or at least keeping his minutes very very low), and playing Queta in a consistent 15+MPG role, what would you have done differently to "tank harder"? We were pretty much busting teams with our end of benchers already (Lyles, Jones, Metu, Jackson), saw our rookie who struggled for a good portion of the year just take over the team the last 12 games and DDV return to his pre-injury form. Holiday played, but he was pretty clearly the biggest tank commander of everyone and was really really bad to close out the year.
That's kind of my thought as well. And I WAS upset that Queta wasn't getting more minutes, both from a tank perspective and a player development perspective. But if we had benched Barnes for Harkless and played Josh Jackson (for example) do we really think the Kings would have failed to win a single game down the stretch? As I said, if they went 1-9 instead of 5-5 they still couldn't have caught the Pacers.


I dont bother to analyse drafts too closely if Kings arent drafting at the very top so hard to say yet. Either way better position gives you better odds, historically its a statistical fact. You also dont have to choose a player 6 teams passed on plus it gives you opportunities to trade down if you really evaluate the draft in a way that it doesnt matter if you draft 2nd or 7th. However I would never be happy with thinking "well we draft seventh because other teams managed to tank the rest of the season and we didnt but thats cool because in this draft the 7th best prospect is almost as good as the top 2-4".

To me us being 7th pre lottery was a choice, and a bad choice by us. The end of the season was literally meaningless. Draft position isnt meaningless. One could easily argue we should've started the tank way earlier to be in the race for a top 4 position. Of cource we didnt do that but at the very least there is no reason why Indiana and Portland should've got better position than us. It was a bad choice we made, hopefully we get very lucky in the lottery but its just a one example where our way of operating is queationable at best
As I just mentioned above, winning just a single game at the end would have kept the Kings from catching the Pacers.

But I do analyze college basketball/draft classes. And this one is weak. Not just at the top, but I think it lacks depth as well. If you combined last year's draft class with this one, I don't think any of the kids at the top of this draft crack the top 3. Maybe not the top 4. And I think someone like Ivey is about a 50/50 proposition of being a bust even though he's the consensus #4 prospect right now.

IMO, the only top prospect with star potential is Banchero, and while I don't think he has bust potential, I think he's as likely to be a guy who puts up numbers on a bad team but doesn't impact winning as he is to be a bonafide star. He's also (IMO) not a great fit with Sabonis. Tanking is only really a viable strategy if you can get a franchise changing player. And that was part of my point. I don't think you can in this draft. I also think there's a stronger than normal chance that someone taken in the mid to late lottery is the 2nd best player in five years time. We'll see.
 
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funkykingston

Super Moderator
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I think Chet could be close. If he answers the weight questions (Big if), he's as talented a basketball player that we've seen in a long time.
I think the thing with Chet is that he's never going to be your go-to scorer. If he reaches all of his potential he's a top level rim protector who also does a little of everything else, including stretching the floor. But I don't think you can ever dump the ball into him and have him get a tough bucket. I think he tops out as a high level role player, which isn't a bad thing. It's just not a star.

As a reference, I think he'll be somewhat similar to Evan Mobley, but he lacks Mobley's lateral quickness and Mobley has the frame to add weight/strength which ultimately may be the biggest difference between them.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
A sobering note - I'm not sure of the last time we've gotten an extra pick or traded down in the first round and have ended up with anything of value from the pick:
2017: #10 from NOP, traded down for #15 (Justin Jackson) and #20 (Giles)
2016: Traded down from #8, got #13 (Papagiannis) and #28 (Labissiere) (Rights to Bogdan were also included, but that's not a pick)
2016: Acquired #22 from CHA (Malachi Richardson)
2011: Traded down from #7 to #10 (Jimmer)
2009: Acquired #23 (Casspi)

So that's the one. 2009 is the last time that we had an acquired 1st that we did anything useful with.
Tell me that Monte wouldn't have nailed that #10 pick, or 15 and 20. There was talent there!!!
 
Sit out Barnes completely. Start the end of the bench guys, play Queta and other GLeague guys that I possibly can for 30-40+mins per game, even more if I had to. There were a lot of things we could've done to tank harder, we could've played our six worst guys for 40min and no one else. Basically what OKC did for example. But if the starting point is playing Barnes for almost 40min a game then we are very far from doing what we can to ensure the best possible draft position.

Also I would've started the tank a lot earlier but that has been out of the question for so long but thats also another thing we could've done to be smarter and give ourselves better chance in the future
I agree with this. At the very least, cut Barnes' minutes if he's the type who doesn't think it's professional to sit out completely.

The point is that they never committed to the tank. If the Kings go out there on the backs of Davion and Queta and torch the Thunder....then oh well. We would have nothing to gripe about. Instead they played Barnes big minutes and then people justified it as the correct decision by whether Barnes played well or not. That was never the point. The point is you don't put yourself in a better position to win meaningless games that can only hurt your draft stock if there is absolutely no reason to. Whether they dropped or not in the lottery is irrelevant. It's just a poor decision that you can get away with sometimes and other times it'll bite you, so why risk it?
 
I'd love to be wrong about Chet but I don't think he has an NBA body and I also keep going back to one or two pictures where I started wondering if he was ever diagnosed with Marfan syndrome, so I've been very interested to hear when he takes his NBA physical if any irregularities are discovered with his heart.
I couldn’t really hit the like option here because I’d like to think Chet has no concerning condition. However the thought has also crossed my mind.
 
I'd love to be wrong about Chet but I don't think he has an NBA body and I also keep going back to one or two pictures where I started wondering if he was ever diagnosed with Marfan syndrome, so I've been very interested to hear when he takes his NBA physical if any irregularities are discovered with his heart.
I would think that's on the NBA radar since Isaiah Austin. He looks like Shawn Bradley physically to me.
 
And look, he might be a good coach, but... if you're willing to stake your last shot at going for it on someone who had all of 3 years of experience and hasn't coached since in like 8-9 years, well, good luck with that.
I’m already ready to hear about McNair getting fired down the road and reading ”Vivek was the one who actually picked Jackson that added onto the Kings losing season streak, fired after 1.5 seasons, and still has 2 years to be paid on his contract”
 
I’m already ready to hear about McNair getting fired down the road and reading ”Vivek was the one who actually picked Jackson that added onto the Kings losing season streak, fired after 1.5 seasons, and still has 2 years to be paid on his contract”
This is unfortunately my read as well atm and Jackson seems exactly that dude to shoot that angle. Still hoping to ride off into the sunset with Mike Brown but can’t ignore that scorpion still on our back.
 
I’m already ready to hear about McNair getting fired down the road and reading ”Vivek was the one who actually picked Jackson that added onto the Kings losing season streak, fired after 1.5 seasons, and still has 2 years to be paid on his contract”
This could always be a "friends" thing. Maybe Vivek is just being nice to an old pal?
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Early on in the pandemic, when it seemed like permanent remote work was inevitable, I had this crazy idea of moving to Sacramento and buying season tickets. Then I went to look at property and it was so unbelievably hot while I was there I immediately gave up the dream.

BUT…I’d like to think the multi-verse version of me that bit the bullet is canceling season tickets at the though of Jackson.
It's remarkable that you managed to cram a full three-act story structure into such a short post. Such an achievement warrants recognition I think! Bravo!
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
...

Passing on Luka for Bagley was an obvious all time mistake right when it happened but that was just one thing. Wasting cap space for guys like Rondo, Bellinelli, Afflalo, Zbo, GHill, VC ect instead of getting additional draft capital and better draft positioning was always a big mistake because the team wasnt ever those overpaid vets away from actually competing. To me it was awfull then, on par with why we are in a position we have been so long and now with the benefit of the hindsight we can safely say we would've been much better off by just focusing on the future.

To me its very clear that too early win now moves has been a huge part of why this franchise has been the worst of the league for the past 10+ years. I'm getting pretty tired to go through the same stuff every year with the same result and still the same actions by ownership and the same conversations by fans. Yeah Monte is much better than Vlade who was one of the worst GM's in the history but if we are handcuffed by a win now mandate from ownership, I hope Adam Silver could do something about it. Not gonna happen but would be nice if the moves we make started to be a little bit more towards a timeline where we could actually be succesful
With the exception of Afflalo, I don't think these guys qualify as wasted cap space.

Rondo was good while he was here. He had instant chemistry with DeMarcus, steadied the offense, and helped to coordinate defensive switches (even if his individual defense was not what it was before the injuries).

Belinelli was mostly terrible for his one season in Sacramento but the move made sense on paper. He'd been a reliable outside shooting threat up to that point in his career (and was again after he left).

ZBo was obviously brought in to give Dave Joerger a veteran supporting voice in the locker room. He signed a 2-year deal and mostly moved to a cheerleading role in that second year, so he was hardly franchise crippling.

George Hill was a career role-player just entering his 30s. But he was groomed by Popovich, was a knockdown shooter, and the only other PGs on the roster that year were both rookies. Let me say that again -- we had a PG rotation of DeAaron Fox (rookie), Frank Mason III (rookie, 2nd round pick) and George Hill. Most importantly he had played in the playoffs in 8 out of his 9 years in the league so he seemed like an ideal veteran to show Fox and Mason what it means to be a professional. We needed him way more than he needed us. The only mistake there was paying him like he was a star although, even at 3yr/$57 million he was traded after only half a season to a playoff team. The idea was sound but he just wasn't a guy who wanted the leadership role as much as he wanted the big paycheck (and really, who can blame him for taking it?). Shumpert came in the following season to fill that leadership void and while his pedigree is less impressive, he was surprisingly good at it because he was vocal.

Vince Carter is a living legend, was well-liked by everyone, and signed a 1 year contract on a team which had 12 players who were on rookie contracts. It seems remarkably petty to even mention his name on this list. He did us a favor by agreeing to come here.

You also left out Caron Butler (whose Sacramento tenure is easy to forget since he apparently never got out of George Karl's dog house). He played for Pat Riley in Miami then alongside D Wade, he played next to Kobe on the Lakers, he was an All-Star in Washington, he was part of Dirk's championship winning squad in Dallas under Rick Carlisle, he was a starter on that lob city Clippers team with Blake and CP3, and he was a supporting player on the OKC team that made it to the Finals before Harden was traded. And he's been heavily involved in the player's association. In terms of veteran credibility, I don't think you could draw up a more impressive resume.

It's funny that I'm somehow the Vlade apologist now, but something else he did well was convince veterans to come here who never would have looked twice at Sacramento in the past. None of these veterans was the reason the team couldn't get out of the western conference basement. They all signed short deals and they all were brought in to play alongside top draft picks because Vlade understood the lifecycle of the NBA is predicated on players learning from other players not just their coaches. Obviously by the time all of these guys signed here they were past their prime but they weren't here to lead championship squads, they were here to groom the young players whom Vlade thought would eventually do that.

The next time a hall of fame player in their prime leaves their team to sign a max contract to play for Sacramento will be the first. It may never happen. Cap space isn't the instant "get out of jail free" card for us that it is for large market teams. And we've seen what happens when a GM stockpiles so many first and second round picks that they can't fit them all on the roster. Vlade did that in the 2017-2020 seasons (the infamous "super team, just young" phase). Bogdan and Buddy Hield fought each other for playing time and both earned themselves huge contracts. Most of the wings and big guys didn't pan out. Fox was the only rookie to emerge from that morass and he's been painted with the "empty stats" stigma.

Seriously, look at these rosters: (2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2019-2020) and tell me Vlade didn't invest enough in young players. The guy threw as many darts at the board as the CBA would allow him and most of them missed the board completely. So I stand by my assertion that the big problem with Vlade was who he drafted not how many players he drafted. He sadly doesn't know the difference between a franchise talent and a guy who has no business even playing in the NBA. Vlade has many virtues as a leader and manager but he was out of his depth as a judge of talent and unfortunately for him that's really the principle requirement of the job.
 
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These are our finialist this team is a joke man I don’t know how much more I can take we traded Hali for Sabonis who will walk when he can. No way he’s staying here when these clown coaches suck and we keep
Losing with them
 
This article about how he developed the Nigerian national team last year despite gross incompetency from his higher ups is probably more relevant to this discussion than him coaching the Cavs to the finals a decade ago with one of the worst rosters in NBA history (sans Lebron).
there’s no way some of y’all are talking yourself into mike brown
 
With the exception of Afflalo, I don't think these guys qualify as wasted cap space.
It depends on what you try to accomplish with that cap space. To me paying a big chunk of your cap to veteran players while not being even close to actually competitive team is wasting that cap space.

Cap space could've been used to gain future assets, to help us become actually competitive when we have the talent and assets needed to do that. Either draft assets to keep adding cost&team controlled young players and increasing your odds to add (all) star players. Or you could build a war chest to use for trading for a great player in addition to your own talent. Also not signing expensive vets most likely leads to your own pick being higher, thus giving yourself a better opportunity to add top level talent.

We used our cap to play ourselves out from top picks and didnt add future assets by doing those salary dump trades for example. To me especially considering that with those vets we were still far from competitive, it was a waste. We could've been far from competitive those years but added extra assets plus better draft position pre lottery.


Vlade understood the lifecycle of the NBA is predicated on players learning from other players not just their coaches. Obviously by the time all of these guys signed here they were past their prime but they weren't here to lead championship squads, they were here to groom the young players whom Vlade thought would eventually do that.
That learning from other players might be true but I'm quite sure you dont need to use 40million dollars of your cap space in one year to achieve that. This was the exact excuse I heard a lot at the time these signings happened. Zbo was supposed to make WCS and Skal much better players. Fox and other young guys would learn winning habits ect. The end result from these "mentor" signings look very bad. Fox as a defender still doesnt give full effort, Buddy didnt seem to learn anything, WCS, Skal, JJ, Mason are basically out of the league. I'm pretty sure that in the long term using most of that 40mil to gain additional draft capital would've been more beneficial to us compared to how we used it.

My point simply is that if you are not a good team yet, its hard to become one if year after year you fill your team with average NBA vets and hope that you hit a homerun with the 10th pick of the draft. In my point of view if you spend the 2-3 years when you are not going to be good anyway by gathering extra draft capital, drafting higher with more picks in the first round, you are probably in a much better position after that 3 year period. Especially as a team that isnt a free agent destination, I would 100% recommend being patient and forward looking for those 2-3 years. It also doesnt have to be 100% either or but with this franchise it has been pretty much full on win now for quite some time and clearly with the benefit of hindsight we can say that it has been the wrong approach
 
Really interesting article written shortly after Mark’s firing. Lacob had a vision far ahead of most everyone.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...priorities-of-golden-state-warriors-ownership
Interesting article that contradicts the narrative we have on Jackson today. It pretty much states that Jackson turned the team around and made them into who they are. But at the end of the day Lacob is the owner and can do what he wants.

Ultimately everything worked out, but the article by no means indicates Lacob had a vision. Quite the opposite. The underlying theme was that Lacob was petty, unjust a liar and tone def. But, he's a rich guy playing with his shiny toy and in the end no matter what happens, he will still be a rich owner of the team. He can't be held accountable for his actions.

The team became contenders despite Lacob is what the article comes down to.
 
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