[Game] Kings vs. Suns, 11/08/21 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

[kb02]

Technically talking crap about another player on another team on a kings fan site isn’t trolling. It’ll probably easier to stop crapping on a kings player or at least doing it less vs trying to find arguments or shifting blame on others.

Trolling = making statements, implied or otherwise, to incite disagreement. That is what that Simmons comment is meant to do.

Making comments about a player's play is what a game thread is for. Saying Fox is shooting bricks, has been playing horrible is fair game in a game thread. If I was posting new topics, over and over again, in the various sub threads here--that would be trolling.

And for the record, I'm okay with the Walton sucks comments. Is it too much? Yea, but its fair game in a game thread. However, if talking about Fox's play in the game thread is trolling than those Walton comments would qualify as trolling as well.

 

[kb02]

It's not about how he's paid - not to me. Regardless of salary, we know he can do MUCH better. His shots simply not falling - that's frustrating enough for everybody, no doubt. But when his shot's not falling AND his effort sometimes appears to be lacking - yeah, that's hard to take, especially when every one of the six losses to date has been winnable (losses by 9, 12, 6, 6, 3, 5). Consistently strong effort from De'Aaron might have led to an extra win here or there. The 7-4 record the Kings could otherwise have would feel much better than the 5-6 record they do have.

The good news, IMO, is that - contra to what some of you are saying - I don't see anything *wrong* with him physically. He's getting to his spots and missing wide-open 10 and 12-footers at a clip we didn't see last year - but he's getting the looks. On the defensive end, he just hasn't consistently followed thru on his offseason pledge to lock in.

Let's hope he can manage to do better.

So I don't have an issue with most of what you're saying. My only point of disagreement is whether there is something physically off. I think there is. His bulk has lead to him losing some burst. And he's never zig, zagged, and contorted like other players (Harden, Donovan Mitchell, Ginobelli). Fox is straight line. That loss of burst, I think is partially responsible for him shooting so horribly in the paint. He needs to vary his pace, add some craft, and play with better balance instead of trying to out fast everyone. Watching Donovan Mitchell film would help a ton.

 

[Letsgokings13]

I guess he could always just sit out from the games and team functions due to his mental health and get us 0% shooting from the 2, 3 and ft and a per of 0 while also being paid like an allstar. Grass ain’t always greener.

I'm fine with that

 

[Section 101]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1458114768141643780

 

[hrdboild]

I don’t know how Fox didn’t see him when it was designed. But then again, guess we see why Hali handles most of the decision making when they’re on the court together.

Sure, but the thing is players are paid not just for their current performance but also for their market value in the league and for how replaceable they are and for projected future performance and, especially in the case of young players coming off of rookie scale contracts, for past performance when they were probably making far less than fair market value. It is what it is. You can't expect anyone to suddenly be 5x the player they were just because their contract jumped up from rookie scale to max. The alternative is to let them leave, save money, and find a new starting PG who can get you 20 and 10. People would really be railing on McNair if he'd let that happen. Everyone can see that Fox has come out of the gate struggling this year and personally I think he just looks mentally disengaged which is worrying but who knows what all is happening off the court with him. He's always been a streaky shooter. It will start falling for him eventually.

I just think there's a difference between criticism and blame. And overall my main point is... the team is 5-6 with a positive point differential right now which bodes well for their chances of sneaking into the playoffs with a 7 or 8 seed. For those keeping track, the last time the Kings finished the season with a positive point differential was 2006 which was also the last year they made the playoffs. Looking at the roster we have and the schedule we've played, 5-6 is right about where we should be. Granted most of us would have expected more production from Fox over that stretch and less from Barnes but let's keep this all in context. They changed the ball this season. A lot of players are struggling with their shot. He's still getting to the FT line at an elite rate (15th in the league) and when his shooting splits return to his career averages the team will get even better. The season is 82 games. Maybe they'll flip the script and play better in the second half of the season for a change? In any case, I just think it's too early to say that Fox is the problem. He should play better than he has and I think he will. In the meantime, we could try to appreciate that the team is playing better than they have in a long time, especially on defense.

 

[Tetsujin]

Sure, but the thing is players are paid not just for their current performance but also for their market value in the league and for how replaceable they are and for projected future performance and, especially in the case of young players coming off of rookie scale contracts, for past performance when they were probably making far less than fair market value. It is what it is. You can't expect anyone to suddenly be 5x the player they were just because their contract jumped up from rookie scale to max. The alternative is to let them leave, save money, and find a new starting PG who can get you 20 and 10. People would really be railing on McNair if he'd let that happen. Everyone can see that Fox has come out of the gate struggling this year and personally I think he just looks mentally disengaged which is worrying but who knows what all is happening off the court with him. He's always been a streaky shooter. It will start falling for him eventually.

I just think there's a difference between criticism and blame. And overall my main point is... the team is 5-6 with a positive point differential right now which bodes well for their chances of sneaking into the playoffs with a 7 or 8 seed. For those keeping track, the last time the Kings finished the season with a positive point differential was 2006 which was also the last year they made the playoffs. Looking at the roster we have and the schedule we've played, 5-6 is right about where we should be. Granted most of us would have expected more production from Fox over that stretch and less from Barnes but let's keep this all in context. They changed the ball this season. A lot of players are struggling with their shot. He's still getting to the FT line at an elite rate (15th in the league) and when his shooting splits return to his career averages the team will get even better. The season is 82 games. Maybe they'll flip the script and play better in the second half of the season for a change? In any case, I just think it's too early to say that Fox is the problem. He should play better than he has and I think he will. In the meantime, we could try to appreciate that the team is playing better than they have in a long time, especially on defense.

I find it fascinating that this fanbase seems more critical of the team now that it's been playing solid defense for a good ten game span than it was when, say, Dave Joerger torpedoed a potential playoff run because he was upset about the assistant GM and the Kings drafting Marvin Bagley. This team is displaying a level of competence on defense that it hasn't really shown since Mike Malone got fired or even dating back to the Ron Ron/Bonzi Kings. We're seeing the Kings stay in games they would have absolutely gotten pantsed in over most of the last ten years and, more importantly, we're seeing easily identifiable room for improvement. This isn't an "OH GOOD LORD! I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS TEAM LET'S PANIC AND DO SOMETHING KANGSY" situation anymore but rather a "Keep up the defensive intensity and try to fix the offense and defensive play calls and schematics to maximize the talent already on the roster" situation. One big trade or transaction might add to the problems rather than address them.

The one thing that really confuses me, given the offensive issues this team is having in general and criticisms of Fox's mental engagement, is this fixation on Ben Simmons as the answer to all of our problems. Last I checked, offensive issues and mentally checking out were the two things Ben Simmons is as elite at as playing defense.

I'm not even saying the Kings would be a worse team with Ben Simmons instead of Fox or whatever. Ben Simmons is a really good player, there's no denying that. But I think it's naïve to expect him to come in and randomly become a newer, more confident, better player the second he leaves Philadelphia. Meanwhile, Fox has shown himself to be the only King capable of generating his own offense on ball, even if the shots haven't been going in this season at the same rate they were last year. Couple that with a coach shifting him to a different role (more of his baskets are assisted than ever in his career) and generally tinkering with the scheme that made him a 25 point scorer last season and sure he's going to look off. This doesn't make him immune to criticism of course. He's taking far too many pull up mid-range shots on the year (partly a product of Walton having him take more secondary side drives than those from primary middle-out actions) and he still has occasional lapses on the defensive end (he also has games where he has three steals and three blocks like he did last night) and his shot in general appears to have left him. When he edges back towards his shooting averages from his career instead of the career lows he's having right now, things will look better.

When the only two guys who seem to be having above-average success in an entire offensive system are a ten-year vet seeing his highest usage numbers since he was the primary option on a bad Dallas team and a shooting guard who pretty much ignores whatever offensive principles the scheme dictates he follow to shoot at every opportunity he gets, the issue appears to be more on the scheme than it is with the personnel. But it's fixable by simply going back to some of what we were doing before.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

As much as we like to get frustrated with the referees at times, this is not the play to be griping about. That was about as pure of a charge as it comes. He established legal guarding position at about the time Barnes crossed half court. He was set..

The fact that someone can watch the same play and come away with the opposite POV proves exactly why the call is “subjective”. The call on the floor should have stood. It makes zero sense to change a subjective call on the floor with another subjective call via replay. That’s not how replay is supposed to work.

As for your assertion that he established legal guarding position, how do you explain him lifting and dragging his right leg backward to get even better position as HB changed direction with his euro step? Go re-watch. He was not set!

Furthermore IDK when backpedaling then stopping right in front of someone on a fast break became acceptable defense, but it’s beyond lame. That didn’t used to fly, along with the myriad of traveling moves everyone uses today.

Regardless, while the block/charge rules have always been open to subjective interpretation, what Booker did doesn’t pass the eye test. He wasn’t set for even close to a count and further re-established his right leg position a split second before HB contacted him. Hence he was moving and not set!

In real time I get seeing it either way. But in slow-mo you can clearly see him re-establish. And see that he wasn’t set long enough.

It was a terrible overturn. The entire point of replay is that the call made live stands unless conclusive evidence shows otherwise. They are overturning far too many calls via subjective option, not conclusive evidence. Because he wasn’t conclusively set. No chance.

 

[captain bill]

Also question the wisdom of going for two when you’re down three with 7 Seconds left. Best case scenario, you’re down by one with like five seconds left.

Go for 3 when you’re down 2, go for 2 when you’re down 3. Basketball 3.0, baby!!

 

[Tetsujin]

Go for 3 when you’re down 2, go for 2 when you’re down 3. Basketball 3.0, baby!!

Keep the opponents on their toes!

Will the Kings go for two when down three with seven seconds left? Will they go for three? Will they hand the ball back to the other team just to **** with them? Who the hell knows?! They're caged animals!

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1458144459208773636

Everyone just needs to relax tbh. We've played the hardest schedule in the league by a decent margin with a positive Net Rating

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Are we really going to turn De'Aaron Fox into the team scapegoat this year? In all the time I've followed this team, one thing that has consistently been true is that Sacramento fans will find a reason to hate the highest paid player on the team no matter what. It's so predictable and nauseating. I understand he hasn't yet shown the super saiyen mode he discovered late last season but we're less than a dozen games into the season. Even with Barnes playing at an All-Star level we're still one significant player (Ben Simmons?) away from being a legitimate playoff team to where losing to top teams in the West should warrant finger pointing and blame.

You’re spot on. Every season it seems at least one player becomes the primary target of KINGSFANS wrath.

We should keep track which player receives the most hate over the course of the season.

MB3 was the preseason favorite. Now Swipa has quickly caught up to him.
But Buddy Hield is always a few keystrokes away from becoming the leader once again.

 

[sactowndog]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1458144459208773636

Everyone just needs to relax tbh. We've played the hardest schedule in the league by a decent margin with a positive Net Rating

Yes but some of that isn’t changing given the division we play in.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Keep the opponents on their toes!

Will the Kings go for two when down three with seven seconds left? Will they go for three? Will they hand the ball back to the other team just to **** with them? Who the hell knows?! They're caged animals!

Please explain why you’re so uptight about this.

If the pass to the wide open Metu had been executed correctly (it should have been), barely any time would have come off the clock.

As it were, only 2 seconds ran off the clock after the pass was super late then fumbled out of bounds. Even less time would have elapsed had Metu received the ball on time and quickly dunked it.

After an immediate foul on the subsequent inbound, the Suns would have been shooting 2 after just missing 2 the possession before. The KINGS still had a timeout to advance. Plenty of time would have remained.

We see teams employ the same tactic the KINGS used all the time. There was still decent amount of time on the clock to use it, along with the timeout.

I don’t see good reason to clown the decision. Now the execution is something else entirely. That should be mocked.

I suppose you’d rather have seen a rushed 31-foot shot with 5 seconds still on the clock like Haliburton put up the game before?

 

[The_Jamal]

Yes but some of that isn’t changing given the division we play in.

Generally, teams that have the hardest schedule for an extended period of games will have a much lower SOS the rest of the way. Next 4 games will give us a good barometer with all our probably being bottom 10-12 teams in the league

 

[Woot!]

I just think there's a difference between criticism and blame. And overall my main point is... the team is 5-6 with a positive point differential right now which bodes well for their chances of sneaking into the playoffs with a 7 or 8 seed. .

Yeahbit - all of that positive differential is due to the Kings being on the right side of one 30-pt win. I don't think a point that hinges entirely on the outcome of a single game is worth stressing.

 

[sactowndog]

Generally, teams that have the hardest schedule for an extended period of games will have a much lower SOS the rest of the way. Next 4 games will give us a good barometer with all our probably being bottom 10-12 teams in the league

Generally yes but playing 4 against our Division, and 4 against Utah, Denver, Dallas almost guarantees we will have the hardest schedule at the end of the year.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I find it fascinating that this fanbase seems more critical of the team now that it's been playing solid defense for a good ten game span than it was when, say, Dave Joerger torpedoed a potential playoff run because he was upset about the assistant GM and the Kings drafting Marvin Bagley. This team is displaying a level of competence on defense that it hasn't really shown since Mike Malone.

Totally agree with you here.

I’ve never understood why Joerger apologists sweep his actions under the proverbial table. I’m still more upset over that than anything Walton has done. And I’m not much of a Walton fan.

You’re also spot on regarding how improved the defense competence has been, even though there is still a ton of room for improvement.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Yeahbit - all of that positive differential is due to the Kings being on the right side of one 30-pt win. I don't think a point that hinges entirely on the outcome of a single game is worth stressing.

You’re right, but the reverse has often been true in other seasons. The fact that it’s in the positive right now, no matter the small sample size, is noteworthy IMO.

 

[sactowndog]

I find it fascinating that this fanbase seems more critical of the team now that it's been playing solid defense for a good ten game span than it was when, say, Dave Joerger torpedoed a potential playoff run because he was upset about the assistant GM and the Kings drafting Marvin Bagley. This team is displaying a level of competence on defense that it hasn't really shown since Mike Malone got fired or even dating back to the Ron Ron/Bonzi Kings. We're seeing the Kings stay in games they would have absolutely gotten pantsed in over most of the last ten years and, more importantly, we're seeing easily identifiable room for improvement. This isn't an "OH GOOD LORD! I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS TEAM LET'S PANIC AND DO SOMETHING KANGSY" situation anymore but rather a "Keep up the defensive intensity and try to fix the offense and defensive play calls and schematics to maximize the talent already on the roster" situation. One big trade or transaction might add to the problems rather than address them.

The one thing that really confuses me, given the offensive issues this team is having in general and criticisms of Fox's mental engagement, is this fixation on Ben Simmons as the answer to all of our problems. Last I checked, offensive issues and mentally checking out were the two things Ben Simmons is as elite at as playing defense.

I'm not even saying the Kings would be a worse team with Ben Simmons instead of Fox or whatever. Ben Simmons is a really good player, there's no denying that. But I think it's naïve to expect him to come in and randomly become a newer, more confident, better player the second he leaves Philadelphia. Meanwhile, Fox has shown himself to be the only King capable of generating his own offense on ball, even if the shots haven't been going in this season at the same rate they were last year. Couple that with a coach shifting him to a different role (more of his baskets are assisted than ever in his career) and generally tinkering with the scheme that made him a 25 point scorer last season and sure he's going to look off. This doesn't make him immune to criticism of course. He's taking far too many pull up mid-range shots on the year (partly a product of Walton having him take more secondary side drives than those from primary middle-out actions) and he still has occasional lapses on the defensive end (he also has games where he has three steals and three blocks like he did last night) and his shot in general appears to have left him. When he edges back towards his shooting averages from his career instead of the career lows he's having right now, things will look better.

When the only two guys who seem to be having above-average success in an entire offensive system are a ten-year vet seeing his highest usage numbers since he was the primary option on a bad Dallas team and a shooting guard who pretty much ignores whatever offensive principles the scheme dictates he follow to shoot at every opportunity he gets, the issue appears to be more on the scheme than it is with the personnel. But it's fixable by simply going back to some of what we were doing before.

I think the point you are missing is what is the better line-up:

Mitchell, Haliburton, Simmons, Barnes, Holmes

Bench: Buddy, Davis, Harkless, Thompson

Fox, Haliburton, Barnes, Harkless, Holmes

Bench: Buddy, Mitchell, Thompson

No granted I would like to see what King and Metu can do some more. And I’m not sure we can still get Simmons for Fox straight up.

 

[kb02]

Sure, but the thing is players are paid not just for their current performance but also for their market value in the league and for how replaceable they are and for projected future performance and, especially in the case of young players coming off of rookie scale contracts, for past performance when they were probably making far less than fair market value. It is what it is. You can't expect anyone to suddenly be 5x the player they were just because their contract jumped up from rookie scale to max. The alternative is to let them leave, save money, and find a new starting PG who can get you 20 and 10. People would really be railing on McNair if he'd let that happen. Everyone can see that Fox has come out of the gate struggling this year and personally I think he just looks mentally disengaged which is worrying but who knows what all is happening off the court with him. He's always been a streaky shooter. It will start falling for him eventually.

I just think there's a difference between criticism and blame. And overall my main point is... the team is 5-6 with a positive point differential right now which bodes well for their chances of sneaking into the playoffs with a 7 or 8 seed. For those keeping track, the last time the Kings finished the season with a positive point differential was 2006 which was also the last year they made the playoffs. Looking at the roster we have and the schedule we've played, 5-6 is right about where we should be. Granted most of us would have expected more production from Fox over that stretch and less from Barnes but let's keep this all in context. They changed the ball this season. A lot of players are struggling with their shot. He's still getting to the FT line at an elite rate (15th in the league) and when his shooting splits return to his career averages the team will get even better. The season is 82 games. Maybe they'll flip the script and play better in the second half of the season for a change? In any case, I just think it's too early to say that Fox is the problem. He should play better than he has and I think he will. In the meantime, we could try to appreciate that the team is playing better than they have in a long time, especially on defense.

The thing you're missing is Fox's play has regressed. It's one thing if he gets paid and his play has leveled off. It's another if he gets paid and his play has fallen off a cliff. 11 games is sufficient sample size to worry.

 

[The_Jamal]

The thing you're missing is Fox's play has regressed. It's one thing if he gets paid and his play has leveled off. It's another if he gets paid and his play has fallen off a cliff. 11 games is sufficient sample size to worry.

LOL.

Tell me you know nothing about math without telling me you know nothing about math

 

[kb02]

LOL.

Tell me you know nothing about math without telling me you know nothing about math

13% of the season is enough to worry.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think the point you are missing is what is the better line-up:

Mitchell, Haliburton, Simmons, Barnes, Holmes

Bench: Buddy, Davis, Harkless, Thompson

Fox, Haliburton, Barnes, Harkless, Holmes

Bench: Buddy, Mitchell, Thompson

No granted I would like to see what King and Metu can do some more. And I’m not sure we can still get Simmons for Fox straight up.

Who in that lineup is going to be capable of creating their own shot? How are we going to be generating solid offensive looks when teams just sag off of Simmons and help off of Holmes because they're totally non-factors offensively when outside of the paint. Are we moving Haliburton off-ball again after making all these grand gestures at making him the focal point of the offense? Fox at least attempts outside shots enough to keep defenses honest. Simmons pretty much refuses to shoot anything that isn't a direct drive to the hoop and that's only for the first three quarters, after which he apparently won't shoot at all. Barnes isos only work so much and work even less when people know they're coming. Defense be damned, how is that team going to be able to score anything when the game's on the line?

 

[kingwin]

Why are you yelling? lol

It's what Walton deserves. Why get cute when you have 7 seconds to tie the game and send it to OT? They'd wind up giving themselves 4 seconds to go the length of the court to have to hit a 3 anyway so just get a good shot in that scenario and be happy with it. Walton can't seem to think more than one step ahead. Even if the Suns miss a FT after Metu scores, all that did was give them a shot to win the game with an extremely low percentage shot instead of tying it with what would more than likely be an average percentage shot.

I literally jus said I dont care. They had a timeout.

 

[Tetsujin]

Please explain why you’re so uptight about this.

If the pass to the wide open Metu had been executed correctly (it should have been), barely any time would have come off the clock.

As it were, only 2 seconds ran off the clock after the pass was super late then fumbled out of bounds. Even less time would have elapsed had Metu received the ball on time and quickly dunked it.

After an immediate foul on the subsequent inbound, the Suns would have been shooting 2 after just missing 2 the possession before. The KINGS still had a timeout to advance. Plenty of time would have remained.

We see teams employ the same tactic the KINGS used all the time. There was still decent amount of time on the clock to use it, along with the timeout.

I don’t see good reason to clown the decision. Now the execution is something else entirely. That should be mocked.

I suppose you’d rather have seen a rushed 31-foot shot with 5 seconds still on the clock like Haliburton put up the game before?

Yeah but those teams usually wind up losing.

There is difference between drawing up a three pointer down three and randomly panicking and jacking up a thirty footer when you're down two with quite a bit of time left on the clock (Luke drew up a Barnes iso for two there that the Suns sniffed out btw).

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Making comments about a player's play is what a game thread is for. Saying Fox is shooting bricks, has been playing horrible is fair game in a game thread.

Perhaps you simply don't realize how single-focused your comments are in every game thread this year. I will admit, I don't have a great memory for this sort of thing, so if I notice (and I have) then you're probably way over the top. What was the count, 19 negative comments about Fox during the game itself, and then continuing on the next day? We get it, we really do. We know how you feel. Instead of repeating it again, maybe you should try telling us something we don't already know.

 

[Tetsujin]

Perhaps you simply don't realize how single-focused your comments are in every game thread this year. I will admit, I don't have a great memory for this sort of thing, so if I notice (and I have) then you're probably way over the top. What was the count, 19 negative comments about Fox during the game itself, and then continuing on the next day? We get it, we really do. We know how you feel. Instead of repeating it again, maybe you should try telling us something we don't already know.

There are also all the posts about how Richaun Holmes is too short to be a starter so he's not a one-hit wonder.

 

[Tetsujin]

I literally jus said I dont care. They had a timeout.

Do you really trust Luke Walton to draw up two good plays in a row?

 

[kingwin]

Do you really trust Luke Walton to draw up two good plays in a row?

omg. I dont care. did he draw up a play for a wide open lay-up? jus answer this first.

 

[Tetsujin]

omg. I dont care. did he draw up a play for a wide open lay-up? jus answer this first.

Booker read the play and was cheating into the passing lane so... kinda?