Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

[Woot!]

Is Brogdon a "star"? He's a very good player, but a star?

Cuz if he and the #14 are too little for Philly, I don't know why any team would want to offer more for a guy who's very talented but can't/won't shoot in the playoffs. His free throw percentage has declined w/every one of his six career playoff series. Can you think of another "star" player with as big a cluster of flaws as Simmons', or one more easily exploited come playoff time?

Unless your own all-star is deeply flawed (or disgruntled/old), I don't know why you'd give one up - and possibly then some - for Ben Simmons UNLESS you felt confident you could *fix* his playoff performance. Far as I can tell, most people on this board wouldn't give up Fox for Simmons straight-up (I'm one who wouldn't), and Fox has only one all-star-caliber season to his name.

 

[midtowner]

Is Brogdon a "star"? He's a very good player, but a star?

Cuz if he and the #14 are too little for Philly, I don't know why any team would want to offer more for a guy who's very talented but can't/won't shoot in the playoffs. His free throw percentage has declined w/every one of his six career playoff series. Can you think of another "star" player with as big a cluster of flaws as Simmons', or one more easily exploited come playoff time?

Unless your own all-star is deeply flawed (or old), I don't know why you'd give one up - and possibly then some - for Ben Simmons UNLESS you felt confident you could *fix* his playoff performance. Far as I can tell, most people on this board wouldn't give up Fox for Simmons straight-up, and Fox has only one all-star-caliber season to his name.

Prime Dwight Howard might be the best Simmons comp.

 

[kb02]

Is Brogdon a "star"? He's a very good player, but a star?

Cuz if he and the #14 are too little for Philly, I don't know why any team would want to offer more for a guy who's very talented but can't/won't shoot in the playoffs. His free throw percentage has declined w/every one of his six career playoff series. Can you think of another "star" player with as big a cluster of flaws as Simmons', or one more easily exploited come playoff time?

Unless your own all-star is deeply flawed (or old), I don't know why you'd give one up - and possibly then some - for Ben Simmons UNLESS you felt confident you could *fix* his playoff performance. Far as I can tell, most people on this board wouldn't give up Fox for Simmons straight-up, and Fox has only one all-star-caliber season to his name.

In terms of just his on the court play, would rank him near Fox. A lil better or worse depending on your flavor. On this metric alone, he’d be 1b to Fox’s 1a. Borderline all star, very good player in the East.

Factor in age, and he has less value.than Fox and Hali.

 

[ESP47]

They can't make it out of the second round despite tanking for multiple seasons and securing multiple picks in the top 3. They're in the EAST ffs.

Meanwhile Phoenix is in the Finals. Utah and Denver did things honestly and are no better or worse despite being in a competitive conference. ATL tore down and made the ECF during the process.

Just because the Kings suck doesn't mean Philly unlocked the secret recipe. They disgraced the league with a multi season tank and are about to have one player to show for it.

Our team has the longest playoff drought in the league. We are in no position to be critiquing the Sixers. They are leaps and bounds better than us. Even in their current situation.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Our team has the longest playoff drought in the league. We are in no position to be critiquing the Sixers. They are leaps and bounds better than us. Even in their current situation.

Apples to oranges. Their measuring stick isn't the Sacramento Kings. It's rings. You don't even attempt to compete for 4 seasons while people pay for season tickets? You better deliver something better than what you had when you started the process. Judge them against every team that rebuilt on the fly and is doing as good or better than Philly today.

 

[SLAB]

Apples to oranges. Their measuring stick isn't the Sacramento Kings. It's rings. You don't even attempt to compete for 4 seasons while people pay for season tickets? You better deliver something better than what you had when you started the process. Judge them against every team that rebuilt on the fly and is doing as good or better than Philly today.

I’d much rather actively tank for four years then make the playoffs than try not to tank and stillbe awful 15 years later.

 

[steelevt]

I’d much rather actively tank for four years then make the playoffs than try not to tank and stillbe awful 15 years later.

Why can’t you rather option C? Try not to tank and make the playoffs

 

[SLAB]

Why can’t you rather option C? Try not to tank and make the playoffs

Because I don’t think Sacramento is capable of it without extreme measures. Lmao

 

[Telemachus]

I’d much rather actively tank for four years then make the playoffs than try not to tank and stillbe awful 15 years later.

I don't think the Kings' drought has anything to not tanking. It hasa lot more to do bad choices over many years going back to the Maloofs. We can all point to many decisions ( whether draft picks, trades or something else) that could've changed the whole outlook of this team.

 

[Padrino]

I’d much rather actively tank for four years then make the playoffs than try not to tank and stillbe awful 15 years later.

Sure. Me too, honestly. But pdx's point still stands. Philadelphia isn't trying to satisfy a beleaguered fanbase that will lap up whatever modicum of success the team might experience. They're playing for rings.

I think people forget just how many first-rounders Sam Hinkie collected as Philly was undergoing the Process. After all of that tanking to set themselves up for a decade of competing for championships, the Sixers are backed into a corner, having ultimately topped out at a series of second-round exits. And if they do end up trading Ben Simmons, they'll only be left with a single asset from their stretch of historic futility. Granted, Joel Embiid is a hell of an asset. But in a league where dynamic guards and wings rule the day, an oft-injured superstar center represents an uphill battle and a tight title window, especially without a legitimate second star alongside him.

I'm sure Daryl Morey desperately wants to parlay Simmons into another star who fits much better next to Embiid, but I maintain that it's going to be difficult for him to thread that particular needle. There aren't really any disgruntled stars he can pry away from their current teams. He might have wet dreams of Damian Lillard in a Sixers uniform, but Lillard has yet to demand a trade, and I don't expect that he will, at least not before giving Chauncey Billups a shot as his new head coach. So the question is just how much less than a player like Lillard is Morey ultimately willing to accept in exchange for Simmons? And does he accept running it back once again with a duo of Embiid/Simmons if he can't find a deal that nets an all-star caliber talent?

Ultimately, I wouldn't characterize the Process as a "bust." Drafting Embiid has given the Sixers a realistic shot at reaching the promised land when Embiid has been healthy. That said, I would definitely call the whole thing a huge disappointment. Philly shanked far too many of their draft picks within that span, and the two selections that worked out, Embiid and Simmons, have been a terrible fit together. In my opinion, it's a tale of poor asset management and flimsy roster construction. And instead of selling high on Ben Simmons when it was clear that he and Embiid didn't mesh well, the franchise is now in the unenviable position of having to scrape some semblance of value from Simmons' desiccated reputation.

 

[ESP47]

Apples to oranges. Their measuring stick isn't the Sacramento Kings. It's rings. You don't even attempt to compete for 4 seasons while people pay for season tickets? You better deliver something better than what you had when you started the process. Judge them against every team that rebuilt on the fly and is doing as good or better than Philly today.

They did it better than us and they did better by their fans than the Kings have. Do you think season ticket holders are looking back fondly at all those less than competitive 28 win years with Cousins/Gay/Tyreke? You don't think that they'd trade those 28 win years for 18 win years to guarantee themselves 4 straight playoff runs with more than likely many more after that? You think Sixer fans would trade places with the Kings right now? Trust me, they don't envy us because we've tried to do it the "right" way. A handful of teams ahead of us in the draft right now are there because their franchises are smarter than ours is and it's why they get to pick from the better players year in and year out. It's not like season ticket holders are sitting at home happy right now that we smashed the Thunder at the end of the year.

I judge them against us because I'm a Kings fan and I'm tired of watching other teams out smart my team. If Philly should be in the finals right now because they tanked for 3 straight years then we should be the 60s Celtics for what the franchise has put us fans through.

 

[Tetsujin]

They did it better than us and they did better by their fans than the Kings have. Do you think season ticket holders are looking back fondly at all those less than competitive 28 win years with Cousins/Gay/Tyreke? You don't think that they'd trade those 28 win years for 18 win years to guarantee themselves 4 straight playoff runs with more than likely many more after that? You think Sixer fans would trade places with the Kings right now? Trust me, they don't envy us because we've tried to do it the "right" way. A handful of teams ahead of us in the draft right now are there because their franchises are smarter than ours is and it's why they get to pick from the better players year in and year out. It's not like season ticket holders are sitting at home happy right now that we smashed the Thunder at the end of the year.

I judge them against us because I'm a Kings fan and I'm tired of watching other teams out smart my team. If Philly should be in the finals right now because they tanked for 3 straight years then we should be the 60s Celtics for what the franchise has put us fans through.

I'd call what the Sixers did less outsmarting the Kings than pretending they had invented the concept of tanking then promptly pooping their pants when it came time to cash in all those chips that losing got them.

 

[steelevt]

They did it better than us and they did better by their fans than the Kings have. Do you think season ticket holders are looking back fondly at all those less than competitive 28 win years with Cousins/Gay/Tyreke? You don't think that they'd trade those 28 win years for 18 win years to guarantee themselves 4 straight playoff runs with more than likely many more after that? You think Sixer fans would trade places with the Kings right now? Trust me, they don't envy us because we've tried to do it the "right" way. A handful of teams ahead of us in the draft right now are there because their franchises are smarter than ours is and it's why they get to pick from the better players year in and year out. It's not like season ticket holders are sitting at home happy right now that we smashed the Thunder at the end of the year.

I judge them against us because I'm a Kings fan and I'm tired of watching other teams out smart my team. If Philly should be in the finals right now because they tanked for 3 straight years then we should be the 60s Celtics for what the franchise has put us fans through.

The thing is we didn’t need to tank like them to become a playoff team. We just needed to not make bone headed decisions. Without tanking, we had the chance to draft, Luka or fox and Donovan Mitchell or 2 of John Collins, Jarrett Allen or og anunoby, or McCollum instead of Ben, dame instead of trob or draft kawhi instead of jimmer. Any of those could have propelled us to the playoffs or more WITHOUT having to tank four years.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The thing is we didn’t need to tank like them to become a playoff team. We just needed to not make bone headed decisions. Without tanking, we had the chance to draft, Luka or fox and Donovan Mitchell or 2 of John Collins, Jarrett Allen or og anunoby, or McCollum instead of Ben, dame instead of trob or draft kawhi instead of jimmer. Any of those could have propelled us to the playoffs or more WITHOUT having to tank four years.

Exactly. The Warriors drafted behind us to build their team. We passed on Lillard and Doncic among others, picked immediately after out busto picks. Our crappy management made bad pick after bad pick. We could have tanked and gotten higher picks and still bungled it.

Also, all those crappy GMs are gone.

 

[ESP47]

The thing is we didn’t need to tank like them to become a playoff team. We just needed to not make bone headed decisions. Without tanking, we had the chance to draft, Luka or fox and Donovan Mitchell or 2 of John Collins, Jarrett Allen or og anunoby, or McCollum instead of Ben, dame instead of trob or draft kawhi instead of jimmer. Any of those could have propelled us to the playoffs or more WITHOUT having to tank four years.

I'm not disagreeing with you there but tanking makes it more difficult to beat yourself with bad decisions. It would be like picking Bagley over Luka for 3 straight years. There was no consensus when it came to picking most of the other players you mentioned there so any one of us could have made the same mistakes. Picking in the top 5 is simply more idiot proof which is exactly what this franchise needs at this point. It's easy to look back in hindsight. Hell, we could probably make a championship team from picking 15th every year but that's unrealistic for a team to do. Why would you not want to give yourself the best pick possible when the team isn't any good anyway?

I'd call what the Sixers did less outsmarting the Kings than pretending they had invented the concept of tanking then promptly pooping their pants when it came time to cash in all those chips that losing got them.

In the end they out smarted the Kings because they've been in the playoffs for 4 straight years and we haven't for about 4x that amount of time. Could they have done more? Of course. The Fultz pick was a massive bust but lets not act like anyone here saw that coming. Almost everyone thought he was the consensus #1 pick.

The year where they picked Okafor was just plain bad luck. These are the players picked after Okafor in the top 10. Porzingis was considered a reach at the time so they were basically SOL if they picked anyone in the vicinity other than Porzingis.

Porzingis
Hezonja
WCS
Mudiay
Stanley Johnson
Kaminsky
Winslow

So while they didn't do it perfectly, they had some poor luck involved. Which is normal because there's no guarantees with the draft but I'd certainly rather be choosing from the players that the Sixers got to choose from rather than what the Kings were choosing from.

 

[ESP47]

Exactly. The Warriors drafted behind us to build their team. We passed on Lillard and Doncic among others, picked immediately after out busto picks. Our crappy management made bad pick after bad pick. We could have tanked and gotten higher picks and still bungled it.

Also, all those crappy GMs are gone.

If I gave you two options and one was a 75% chance to draft an all star and the other was a 25% chance to draft an all star, would you opt for the 25% chance because there is still a chance you wouldn't net an all star with the 75% odds?

 

[Gguod]

Apples to oranges. Their measuring stick isn't the Sacramento Kings. It's rings. You don't even attempt to compete for 4 seasons while people pay for season tickets? You better deliver something better than what you had when you started the process. Judge them against every team that rebuilt on the fly and is doing as good or better than Philly today.

Hinkies process was cut short since he was fired and then pretty much botched by other GMs but they are still a good team that pretty much automatically makes the playoffs. The process gave them an extremely high ceiling and a very high floor. They ended up on that floor but because of the process, that floor is higher than the expected outcome of most teams.

When it comes to fans and season tickets, I think in hindsight majority of our fans would rather take 4 tanking years where we make smart decisions to add lot of additional draft assets and then be in a high ceiling high floor situation rather than sub .500 seasons 15 years in a row even if "tried to compete".

And its not apples to oranges. When discussing the process, its a discussion about strategy. Our strategy has been horrible. Its seriously limited our possibilities to build a great team and we missed on those limited possibilities. Sixers also missed a lot but since they had so many possibilities they are still a good team. Sure some teams hit on limited possibilities and become good but also some dont like us for example. The process allowed them to miss a lot and still be good. If a team with strategy like us miss a lot we're automatically bad

 

[Iced Espresso]

Apples to oranges. Their measuring stick isn't the Sacramento Kings. It's rings. You don't even attempt to compete for 4 seasons while people pay for season tickets? You better deliver something better than what you had when you started the process. Judge them against every team that rebuilt on the fly and is doing as good or better than Philly today.

Well they got rid of Hinkie during the process.

Would be like blaming McNair for not trading Bogi at last years deadline or drafting Jimmer.

 

[Dime Dropper]

It's about playing the odds, which Philly did. Anything else is just noise. The fact that Philly didn't execute everything else perfectly, or that other teams drafted well whilst not tanking, is not an indication that what Philly did was wrong. They maximised their odds. It's simply a question of probability.

Of course that doesn't take into account the human aspect of paying for tickets to watch aan intentionally bad product. But speaking for myself, I would rather support an intentionally bad product for a handful of seasons than an accidentally bad product for a decade and a half.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Our team has the longest playoff drought in the league. We are in no position to be critiquing the Sixers.

Um, yes, we are in great position to criticize.

Just like how every MLB team that didn't steal signs to win a championship are in great position to criticize the HOU Astericks. And how every player that didn't opt to take PED's can be critical of those that did. And how every NFL team that didn't sabotage communications or deflate footballs can criticize those that did.

When someone conducts business the right way and gives best effort to compete at all times -- even if it doesn't produce the desired results -- they always have the moral high ground.

Some of you fans are different, but I'll gladly accept owning the longest playoff drought vs. rooting for a franchise that purposely compromises integrity and/or cheats in order to win.

As a fan and a competitor, that's not a price I'm willing to pay to build a winner. Because, to me, that's not really winning. No matter how many games or championships are won.

As for the Sixers, they haven't even cheated the system well enough to steal a championship or even make a Finals appearance -- which makes it even more laughable. "The process" is getting the exact result it deserves. Failure.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I'd call what the Sixers did less outsmarting the Kings than pretending they had invented the concept of tanking then promptly pooping their pants when it came time to cash in all those chips that losing got them.

What the Sixers did was the equivalent of base dealing in poker. Or taking money or property from the bank in a game of Monopoly. Or using PED's in any sport.

They cheated the game. They cheated the system.

Just because there's no way to prove 'intent' and just because the NBA isn't smart enough to figure out how to properly de-incentivize cheating the system in this manner (if they are truly interested in preventing it at all) doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There's nothing smart or ingenious about cheating. Or taking shortcuts. Period. End of story. Next freaking topic.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I’d much rather actively tank for four years then make the playoffs than try not to tank and stillbe awful 15 years later.

This is a ridiculous attitude. It really is.

Would you bend the rules or outright cheat at cards or a some board game to avoid losing most every time simply because you're awful at it?

Seriously, where's your competitive spirit? Where's your honor and integrity?

I just fail to understand how anyone can feel good or proud about an accomplishment not achieved in a legitimate and competitive manner.

While the 2002 KINGS team didn't win a championship, I have a lot of love for that team and a lot of respect for how they represented the KINGS org and the City of Sacramento. Because that team was assembled the right way and played the game the right way.

And the org didn't have to subvert rules or compromise competitive integrity in order to build that team.

As @steelevt correctly pointed out, numerous opportunities to build a playoff contender have been presented all w/o having to resort to the childish nonsense. They just made the wrong decisions. And hired the wrong FO personnel to make those important decisions.

The real answer to the problem is to hire the right people to make correct decisions the majority of the time.

Tanking is the lazy persons answer. It's an unscrupulous shortcut.

Winning in that manner will never be 1/10th as rewarding as winning while doing things the right way.
In the world of sports and competition, if you're not always trying to be competitive and competing to win -- you aren't doing things the right way.

 

[MizzouKing]

An interesting discussion, but if the Kings made a trade that involved Fox OR Haliburton, fans would grab their pitchforks and run Monte & Vivek out of town.

 

[kb02]

This is a ridiculous attitude. It really is.

Would you bend the rules or outright cheat at cards or a some board game to avoid losing most every time simply because you're awful at it?

Seriously, where's your competitive spirit? Where's your honor and integrity?

I just fail to understand how anyone can feel good or proud about an accomplishment not achieved in a legitimate and competitive manner.

While the 2002 KINGS team didn't win a championship, I have a lot of love for that team and a lot of respect for how they represented the KINGS org and the City of Sacramento. Because that team was assembled the right way and played the game the right way.

And the org didn't have to subvert rules or compromise competitive integrity in order to build that team.

As @steelevt correctly pointed out, numerous opportunities to build a playoff contender have been presented all w/o having to resort to the childish nonsense. They just made the wrong decisions. And hired to wrong FO personnel to make those important decisions.

The real answer to the problem is to hire the right people to make correct decisions the majority of the time.

Tanking is the lazy persons answer. It's an unscrupulous shortcut.

Winning in that manner will never be 1/10th as rewarding as winning while doing things the right way.
In the world of sports and competition, if you're not always trying to be competitive and competing to win -- you aren't doing things the right way.

Hinkie took a long term view and implemented a strategy for long term gain. The NBA and the owners of the 76ers wanted shorter term results, so they unplugged the process.

The Kings have operated in a vicious cycle of desperate short term actions--from the Maloofs to Vivek to Walton's late season save my job coaching.

This is the first time where I have heard long term planning is worse than short term, desperate decision making.

 

[whozit]

It's about playing the odds, which Philly did. Anything else is just noise. The fact that Philly didn't execute everything else perfectly, or that other teams drafted well whilst not tanking, is not an indication that what Philly did was wrong. They maximised their odds. It's simply a question of probability.

Of course that doesn't take into account the human aspect of paying for tickets to watch aan intentionally bad product. But speaking for myself, I would rather support an intentionally bad product for a handful of seasons than an accidentally bad product for a decade and a half.

The Kings weren't an "accidentally" bad product for a decade and a half. "Accidentally bad" would only apply to Vivek's tenure. The game the Maloofs were playing was much worse than "The Process." The Process was upfront and for all to see, the other was all about shell games and deceit.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1415305517057052674

well duh

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The article from what I gather says 3 firsts at minimum, Hield and Bagley. I think Sixers win the deal but we have to do it. But not more than 3 picks.

 

[macadocious]

What the Sixers did was the equivalent of base dealing in poker. Or taking money or property from the bank in a game of Monopoly. Or using PED's in any sport.

They cheated the game. They cheated the system.

Just because there's no way to prove 'intent' and just because the NBA isn't smart enough to figure out how to properly de-incentivize cheating the system in this manner (if they are truly interested in preventing it at all) doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There's nothing smart or ingenious about cheating. Or taking shortcuts. Period. End of story. Next freaking topic.

Did you just compare tanking to cheating in baseball?

 

[mrlaze]

Tanking isn't cheating.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'd call it a serious integrity issue to plan multi-year tanks in advance. Throwing in the towel after your star player goes down or you are clearly out of the playoff race is much different than what Philly did.

And our fanbase would never accept it.