[SI] De'Aaron Fox and the Kings Are Building for the Future

steelevt · Jun 12, 2021

i havent watched a lot, but i dont think their success is because of trae. Trae is a good player but if you switched spots with Fox I dont think theres a big difference. Atl is playing in the east which we all know its easier to get to the playoffs in. Their coach is better and most of their starting 5 is better. Clint Capela is better than Holmes, Collins is better than Bagley, Huerter is NOT better than Barnes, Bogie is playing way better this year than he ever did with us (maybe it's coaching scheme, maybe its him not playing for the national team) so i'd say hes better than buddy this year. The only argument where i can see fox failing with that team is his poor/average 3 pt shooting because the middle might be clogged with capela and collins, but trae wasnt exactly steph curry out there shooting 34%. So knowing the hawks have a better (new) coach, better (new) roster and playing in the east, i dont think you have to watch all their games to know Trae isnt the main reason why theyre better this year.

Nba social media is really fickle. Last couple years, i would never see booker and trae as superstars. Allstars yes, but im seeing booker compared to or supposed to be the next Kobe??? Trae is the next curry??? Maybe make it deep or consistenly in the playoffs like mitchell, luka, or tatum before you are crowned the next generation of superstars. This isnt even counting those a little older like Embiid, Kawhi, Jokic etc. ESPN top 100 changes their players every year. Someone will be top 10 one year and in the 30s the next year and vice versa.

SacTownKid · Jun 12, 2021

krylia sovetov said:

It doesn't change the reality that PG defense is of utmost importance unless you have some unreal talent base of a superteam variety. That or luck is on your side in matchups or other teams injuries help you out. And I think Luka is a bit different than your average PG who usually struggles defensively partly because of a lack of size or switchability. And the playoffs are far from the promised land when the nightmare of that reality continuously smacks you in the face year after year. Go ask the Blazers about that one. The story for the most part remains the same, year after year. The names change though. At one point it goes by the name Kemba, somewhere down the line it's something else, but there's always a team somewhere that thinks they are the back to ride on. Some players do have a better argument than others as to it's legitimacy. Then at some point those teams usually figure out that reality themselves and scramble to salvage something out of it before it's too late. Or that player figures it's time to find calmer waters because the fans and pundits are catching onto that same reality and the bitterness is settling in.

Where Fox leads this team as an alpha? Well, who knows. I myself am a little uncertain about the near future because I don't think they have a guy on the sidelines that will do anything but diminish the returns Fox can give you. Heck, we watched Fox burn himself out carrying him on his back this year more than once. And carry him he did. Like a rare 2 way superstar at times. The bright spot is we've seen Walton have stretches of not getting in his own way, so he can pull it off, he just doesn't or chooses not to. Whatever good he can inspire as a coach he can also flush without batting an eyelash as he proclaims he has to look at the tape for 9 straight games on a rerun of a 9 game losing streak.

SacTownKid · Jun 12, 2021

steelevt said:

Yeah, great point, the NBA is hot and cold on players like never before because they bend to every single trend. Really since Magic/Bird they've designed the rules of the game to fit their superstars but they are really stretching things now because they have eliminated large aspects of the game to do it.

As for the Hawks, I agree with your point, but team makeup matters so changing Fox out for Trae is like completely turning that team into something else. Whether it's better or worse is all speculation. And yeah, the Hawks had the same team at the beginning of the season. Then something changed. It wasn't Trae. It wasn't anyone other than the fact that their new coach turned the chicken **** their GM served up for supper into chicken salad.

krylia sovetov · Jun 12, 2021

@SacTownKid

ok, what is your prediction on de'aaron? how good he will be?
my point is that his bball philosophy is completely wrong, the way that he plays, shots that he takes... that's not winning basketball.

ok, coach is a problem, squad is nothing special (besides hali), but if we add clones of clint capela and paul george to the team, and togheter with fox, what will be sacramento's best result? WC semifinals? WC finals?

blazers at least made it to WCF recently, yes i would like us to be like them, just for a season or two...

sactowndog · Jun 12, 2021

steelevt said:

so I have watched a lot of the Hawks this year and a lot of it is due to Trae. He is a master at moving and manipulating the defense. It is his ability to see the defense and make the right pass is elite. Sometimes he also falls into trying to get his and the team falls apart.

yes they are a better team but we are talking the 4th best team in the east. They would if healthy make the playoffs in the west. Hunter is very good and is probably their second best player. Capella and Bogi are probably tied and Collins is their 5th best starter.

sactowndog · Jun 12, 2021

SacTownKid said:

Yeah, great point, the NBA is hot and cold on players like never before because they bend to every single trend. Really since Magic/Bird they've designed the rules of the game to fit their superstars but they are really stretching things now because they have eliminated large aspects of the game to do it.

As for the Hawks, I agree with your point, but team makeup matters so changing Fox out for Trae is like completely turning that team into something else. Whether it's better or worse is all speculation. And yeah, the Hawks had the same team at the beginning of the season. Then something changed. It wasn't Trae. It wasn't anyone other than the fact that their new coach turned the chicken **** their GM served up for supper into chicken salad.

Well to be fair he got a healthy Bogi at the same time. Bogi had Covid the was out injured.

mac · Jun 12, 2021

steelevt said:

I don't know if there would be a big difference, but there would be a difference for sure. Now sure, you could argue that on a better team Fox would pass or Fox would do XYZ, but that would just be hypothetical. In terms of how they have actually played, Fox is a much worse PG than Trae in terms of facilitating and setting guys up, and is also a much worse free throw and outside shooter. He has the (potential) upper hand on defense, but clearly not enough to move the needle. We don't watch Kings games and come away thinking wow DeAaron is such a lock down defender.

Admittedly I don't follow a lot of NBA social media, but I'm also curious who on earth is saying Booker is the next Kobe because I've never heard anyone say that. Trae-Curry possibly, but I think that has more to do with just lumping "guys who can pullup from anywhere", including Lillard.

steelevt · Jun 12, 2021

mac said:

I came across this earlier and was like wtf?!?

midtowner · Jun 12, 2021

Saw that and barfed while brushing my teeth.

mac · Jun 12, 2021

steelevt said:

Yeah "second coming" is ridiculous, at least for Booker and Mitchell. "Turnover the future" is fine to me because they are the next generation of stars/superstars, though I my issue with that then is that Wade and Kobe would have already "turned it over" to guys like Dame, Steph, Giannis etc long ago.

krylia sovetov · Jun 13, 2021

KingsFanSince85 said:

go ahead destroy my opinion. IMHO everybody is open for criticism, players, FO executives, ownership members and that includes fox.
maybe i was too harsh, but i beg to differ.

to conclude this take, i gladly eat crow/vulture/rattlesnake/polar bear/whatever if he proves me wrong, and i would really like him to prove me wrong.

but i don't believe in him. plain and simple.

KingsFanSince85 · Jun 13, 2021

steelevt said:

What’s more ridiculous is mentioning 2 players not in the league anymore, and that haven’t been for some time.

Not only are the 3 names of the players turning over the future highly questionable, but the choice of the 3 heir apparent’s are suspect too.

TaxMan · Jun 13, 2021

krylia sovetov said:

Yeah, I would thing labeling fox as “dumb” is probably a bit harsh.

dude12 · Jun 13, 2021

Burner account activated

KingsFanSince85 · Jun 13, 2021

TaxMan said:

Not a “bit harsh”, but completely unfounded and untrue. Period, end of story. Next freaking topic.

SacTownKid · Jun 13, 2021

krylia sovetov said:

Who knows because we've seen how much injuries and a bad coach can drag down a team on their own, and that's exactly the range the others mentioned are getting their teams. I think this team had no excuses not to make the playoffs this last year based on their team build, talent, and depth. Even if the team turns it around in miraculous fashion under Walton next year I think it's inexcusable for a coach to have that many long extended losing streaks in a single season and make it out on the other side when the bar was so low to begin with. I mean, 10th seed? Really? 35% win percentage in the first 2/3's of the season 2 seasons in a row and he's still back? C'mon man, that's ridiculous. The dude cleans it up on the back end of season, it's what he does. And that's around .500 at best.

I do think Fox has more in common with the types of players you see as game changers in the playoffs since he's more of a 2 way player and has rare physical gifts, size, and length for the position he plays, but like any non-universal talent the right team needs to be around him for it to shake out to it's highest potential. They need to build a draw and kick system around him. Walton still wants to put Fox off the ball and run pin downs, dribble hand offs, and motion bs that doesn't involve him. Walton wasn't as bad last year as the year before but he's still misusing a lot of his talent and overemphasizing fringe role guys like Maurice Harkless. That's also his MO. I will say, I do agree to a point with you, Fox has to continue to be a little more both ends, less iso based, and less selfish but last year he was far more giving than a true ball hog type. A lot of times he did what he did because he was the only one that could do it and he brought this team most of it's success on his own and carried them competitively when there were no other options because if he wasn't doing that it usually meant shots were going the Metus' and Harkless' of the world.

Clint Capela is a good player but as the game moves forward bigs like him have less impact. You can't have total offense or total defense bigs anymore unless that big can switch. Capela is somewhere in between and not a total loss but his impact will vary. PG13 is interesting. Depending on what happens with the Clipps it might be conceivable that he's a target for the Kings this summer. I however am not a fan. He doesn't have the motor of a Fox and he tends to float a bit and rely on his talent, which I think has been getting exposed lately. Fox can get to the rim like most players rarely can and you can build an offense off of that if you are smart. George was another one of those 1st/2nd round at best guys. Then their gimmicky Zone pick and roll defense with Hibbert worked them into a conference finals. Then that's when the NBA did away with any basic pick and roll defense and Hibbert went from hero to zero in a flash, haha. Look at Jokic now, he's backing off pick and rolls so far he's on an island and their success totally hinges on teams not hitting wide open 3's. As a sidenote, that's why Jokic needs to find his inner Shaq and pounds team while controlling the clock. Just like the Kings needed to do with Cuz. A freaking tank is not going to beat a race car in a race but it can run that race car over and pound it into dust. Fox however, luckily for the Kings, is a race car and if the Kings are smart, they'll realize that's a very valuable asset in the modern game but he needs shooters and a spread floor around him to make it work to the levels they expect.

krylia sovetov · Jun 14, 2021

burner account, yeah, whatever you say...

@SacTownKid

now, this is a true discussion, if i'm wrong, prove me wrong. i like the wide picture you presented here, and agree with most of it.

couple of side notes:

SacTownKid said:

now this is a main problem. i'm afraid fox is one of those guys who sees only rim and nothing else, when he goes on the drive. not that he doesn't want to pass, but simply don't see anything except the rim. hope i'm wrong. and that takes us to a another problem - being predictable. when he takes the ball opponents knows what will happen. and IMHO being predictable is worse then being slow, weak, undersized or bad shooter is this sport.

SacTownKid said:

he added floater this season, well some glimpses of it, hoping it will improve and becoming a true threat. but why he waited till his 4th season? he should develop it in second season. so he needed 3 seasons to realize that his bag of tricks is not that rich.
giannis has similar problem with constantly trying to reach the rim, some baby hook/semi hook shot from 7-8 foot away from the basket will make him true menace in the paint.

i picked capela and george as very good players on their respective positions (SF & C), not the best ones, but also players without playmaking abilities, to see what the outcome will be. 8th seed at best, 7th maybe. but also, breakdown is very likely.

when your point guard is not a true playmaker, you're in trouble. but let's us see hali's sophomore season.

SacTownKid · Jun 14, 2021

krylia sovetov said:

I don't think he's nearly that much of a tunnel vision player. He does a lot but at times you could argue he stays away from the action. Either way, even though it's a different era and there were special circumstances and people involved in making it happen even AI got to a finals as one of the most tunnel vision players ever. If you are are elite at getting to the rim you can raise a team beyond where it would otherwise normally be if you spread the floor and find spot shots off of one pass or a pass and a swing pass.

As far as his development, I'd place blame with the franchise that's practically proven incapable of developing almost anyone. We're lucky even he made it. As soon as he walked through the door they couldn't wait to put a George Hill in his path. Last year Walton was still trying to run another PG with him playing off the ball so Cojo could run the show. Just stupid.

cwebb2002 · Jun 14, 2021

I find it hilarious that people are here trying to blame fox and saying he doesn't play winning ball or. His approach is wrong and if we had trey we would be so much better off. Lets go back and remember that Fox has given trae young the business pretty much every time they played this year.
20-21 season
Game 1: 32/7/6 to youngs 28/9/1 (atl win)
Game 2: 37/3/2 to youngs 29/9/3 (sac win)

Lets also remember that the supporting cast outside the 5 sac starters and Hali contained not even an average NBA level player (with Bjelica and Joseph being the best players and both are sub par at their positions). Put Fox on ATL and I bet they will be in a similar position as they are today. There are many issues on this team, but Fox, Hali, and I'll even include Barnes (except the big contract) are not among them. The other NBA Talent are TD, Wright, Holmes Bagley and Buddy and most of these guys are not starter level (except maybe Holmes on specific teams) . Everyone else would not make the court on most teams. And the problem is outside of Fox and probably TD their isnt a bulldog among them. The Kings badly need better supporting talent and some toughness/grit. While harkless has next to no skill, that was one thing he brought, toughness. That is why last season when they got rid of shumpert, a tough nose defender with swagger, the team regressed. A Marcus Smart type player would make a huge difference for this team and stay away from and get rid of players who have tons of demands and zero heart or effort (bagley and sometimes Buddy). Go get players who have tons of effort and heart or high basketball iq. They dont all have to be killer offensive players. A Matissen Thybull, Marcus Smart, or clint capella type would do wonders for this team.

midtowner · Jun 15, 2021

I love D Fox. And I am ride or die with him.

But he needs to set the defensive tone and get serious about his free throw shooting. Leadership is hard and he’s got to figure it out (he’s said as much). This team needs an Alpha.

Josh Hart is someone I think could bring some toughness to the team and might be get-able.

LPKingsFan · Jun 15, 2021

midtowner said:

Hart is an interesting suggestion. He played some of his best ball with Walton in LA, right?

mac · Jun 15, 2021

cwebb2002 said:

Ah one of those "Fox wins the head to head matchups" posts again. If you actually watched them play you'd see that what they do on the floor is miles apart. The kinds of looks that Trae creates for his team is totally different from the bulk of assists that Fox gets. I bet if you asked NBA GMs who they would rather pick most of them would choose Young over Fox, because Fox is a much worse shooter and at this point isn't a good defender despite having the potential to be.
Nobody's blaming Fox for anything other than pointing out that he's not good enough to singlehandedly carry us to the playoffs. Put Young on the Kings and I think we're a fringe playoff team at best. Put Fox on the Hawks and there's no way they get past the Knicks with his inconsistent outside shot and poor free throw shooting. Must be nice to be Fox and perpetually have excuses for the team not winning but still be considered by fans as better than other star guards actually accomplishing things.

Fox a bulldog? You're kidding right? Nobody thinks Fox is a tough player. He's literally the leader of one of the softest teams in the NBA.

I'm not bashing Fox by the way, I'm sticking to what he has proven. Very good scorer against regular season defense, not a natural playmaker, potential to be a good defender but not consistent, no significant individual or team accolades, getting paid a lot of money on a losing team with a pretty bad coach. His story is far from over, but it is getting written with each passing year. The narrative will change when he starts winning.

Tetsujin · Jun 15, 2021

midtowner said:

Ah yes, the "his defense is bad and he sucks at shooting" argument that magically doesn't apply to any other young star that is bad at defense and/or free throw shooting (Luka/Ja/Trae)

kb02 · Jun 15, 2021

mac said:

I would take Fox over Young all day, any day. Young is the better shooter and the more natural passer. Fox is the better two way player. It's not even close and the gap will be astronomical in two years. You question Fox's defense and say the Kings would be a fringe play off team with Young. Did you forget the biggest issue last year was the Kings defense? Young on the Kings last year and opposing teams would've been scoring even more.

You say Fox is overpaid, but I'd rather bet on a 22 year old, who has taken a leap each year in the league than a 29 year old, turnover machine, who should be a 6th man and has the ego of a star.

midtowner · Jun 15, 2021

I think the people who think I am bashing Fox are missing a couple things.

1 - he’s my favorite player
2 - I think he’s going to get a lot better
3 - I think he’s tough (just still pretty slight)
4 - The next step up for him is a huge step. It is really hard to go from fringe all star to a fringe All NBA player. And that’s what we are talking about if this team is going to make the playoffs next year (absent another star player joining the roster or emerging).

TaxMan · Jun 15, 2021

midtowner said:

Personally, I think Fox is the least of our worries. Based on his growth each year of his career, there's not reason to think he won't continue to work on his game and make improvements. Whether he ever becomes a "superstar" or not, he's still one of the only players on the team worth a long term investment.

kb02 · Jun 15, 2021

TaxMan said:

Personally, I think Fox is the least of our worries. Based on his growth each year of his career, there's not reason to think he won't continue to work on his game and make improvements. Whether he ever becomes a "superstar" or not, he's still one of the only players on the team worth a long term investment.

Agree.

steelevt · Jun 16, 2021

kb02 said:

To be honest, his “buddy love” was much more tolerable than his “fox bashing”. Maybe cuz I will tolerate loving a kings player too much more than hating a kings player. But recently, he’s been concentrating on less of the former and more on the latter.

mac · Jun 16, 2021

steelevt said:

How am I Fox bashing? Name one thing I've said about Fox that you can concretely refute. Please don't confuse me with the guys who come here saying Fox is trash, or Fox doesn't give Bogi the ball enough and that's why we suck, or saying Fox will never be great. I also didn't see you not tolerating hating Kings players when the very guy you quoted calls Buddy mentally retarded on a regular basis. Or does it only apply to guys you like, i.e. Fox?

Let me ask you - how do most fans think of KAT today, and do you think Wolves fans would want to trade him at year 4/5 if they could turn back time?

mac · Jun 16, 2021

kb02 said:

So we have a two way star and yet somehow our defense was worst in the league? Funny how all the guys who make the all defense team somehow are on teams that aren't historically bad defensively, except Fox who is already a great defender according to you.

Where did I say he was overpaid? Or that we should be placing our hope in Buddy Hield as our franchise player over Fox?

Learn to read, or stop putting words in my mouth. My "criticism" of Fox is far, far more objective and less personal than anything you've ever said about Hield.

What is it about Fox and Young that is "not even close"? Their stats? Their team success? Their individual accolades?

[SI] De'Aaron Fox and the Kings Are Building for the Future

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