Fire Walton

[chief bromden]

The intent is questionable, because what if they had not lost 9 in a row twice? What if by chance, they had won....lets say 3-4 of those games? What if by chance, they get "hot" again for a few games the rest of the season?

The whole operation is again, extremely short sighted

Most definitely, but the fact is that they have lost 9 in a row... so how can we say with certainty it's not their goal to tank? I'm just finding it odd to get upset at McNair (and this isn't necessarily directed at you) after these losses because he didn't go all in on the tank... when they are tanking perfectly after the trade deadline as of right now.

 

[chief bromden]

I probably wasnt clear but I wasn't directly talking to you with that 2nd round stuff. To you I was responding to that general strategy stuff like wether we should play Fox&Barnes +40min a game. 2nd round stuff was more in general and a little in response to:


But as I said having multiple additional present and future 2nds is only a positive thing. If you are worried about roster spots and don't feel like any worthwhile prospects are left you can very often trade your pick to a future 2nd and that way your asset chest will be the almost the same regardles. If you feel like there is a great prospect left at 32, you can use one additional 2nd to go and get him. You can maybe use multiple to get back in to the late first round ect. If you just want to take multiple bites of the apple you can draft multiple guys and your odds of getting even one 2nd contract player/trade asset will increase.

Having extra 2nds to spare is always a good thing near the trade deadline if you want to either trade for a vet (when you are ready to compete) or dump some salary. Basically the point is that its always a positive when you have them and they shouldnt be thought as close to zero value (i'm not saying you think that way but thats how I think about them: they are not close to zero in value). I'm not saying a single 2nd round pick is some high value asset. I'm saying there is a lot you can do with them and having more is much better than having less so they should be treated as such

Thanks for the response. I'm pretty much aligned with you that 2nd rounders have value. Maybe I just differ in that trading a 2nd for Delon Wright and a 2nd for Terence Davis seem like pretty sound trades regardless of tanking or competing. In other words, those trades make a lot of sense to me and they aren't something that I would hold against McNair. I'm not a huge huge fan of Delon Wright, but I think he is tradeable in the offseason, and those middle tier deals like his can be very valuable in matching up salaries in a trade.

 

[chief bromden]

No kidding!

 

[The_Jamal]

I probably wasnt clear but I wasn't directly talking to you with that 2nd round stuff. To you I was responding to that general strategy stuff like wether we should play Fox&Barnes +40min a game. 2nd round stuff was more in general and a little in response to:


But as I said having multiple additional present and future 2nds is only a positive thing. If you are worried about roster spots and don't feel like any worthwhile prospects are left you can very often trade your pick to a future 2nd and that way your asset chest will be the almost the same regardles. If you feel like there is a great prospect left at 32, you can use one additional 2nd to go and get him. You can maybe use multiple to get back in to the late first round ect. If you just want to take multiple bites of the apple you can draft multiple guys and your odds of getting even one 2nd contract player/trade asset will increase.

Having extra 2nds to spare is always a good thing near the trade deadline if you want to either trade for a vet (when you are ready to compete) or dump some salary. Basically the point is that its always a positive when you have them and they shouldnt be thought as close to zero value (i'm not saying you think that way but thats how I think about them: they are not close to zero in value). I'm not saying a single 2nd round pick is some high value asset. I'm saying there is a lot you can do with them and having more is much better than having less so they should be treated as such

Would you have been fine with the Denver package for Barnes? (Hampton, Harris long-term salary, 2025 1st) or the Miami Heat cap dump for Buddy? I think it's fair to say those deals were the barometer for what we were being offered for them as similarly talented players.

 

[joemama]

Walton is doing just fine rn.

We are losing, whether intentional or not, it's working.

Maybe, just maybe the guys brought in are "in on it" whether intentional or not.

 

[Gguod]

Would you have been fine with the Denver package for Barnes? (Hampton, Harris long-term salary, 2025 1st) or the Miami Heat cap dump for Buddy? I think it's fair to say those deals were the barometer for what we were being offered for them as similarly talented players.

If I got 1st and and a young prospect for Barnes then probably yes. Harris is a negative salary so maybe it would've been nice to get something extra for taking him. My biggest issue is trying to force wins that are counter productive for us at this stage. I would've been ok if we went full tank mode after deadline and didnt spend two 2nd rounders for Delon.

If we traded Barnes then I would've just basically dumped Hield also (hoping for even some draft capital back), one year rebuild next year and then starting to build a winner with this years high pick, next years top 4 pick and Fox and Hali ect

Thanks for the response. I'm pretty much aligned with you that 2nd rounders have value. Maybe I just differ in that trading a 2nd for Delon Wright and a 2nd for Terence Davis

I agree with you, Davis for a 2nd was worth it. Only part where we disagree is Delon since it was actually two 2nds for him. He is already on a mid level type of contract and I dont see what the point is in a 2nd half of the season when we should be consentrating on draft position. I'd rather cut CoJo and kept the two 2nds than having Delon but thats just my point of view.

 

[TaxMan]

They will be back on the bandwagon when we start winning again.

I can tell you this. I have been a die hard fan for 30+ years. As I have gotten older, I have started to look at “bandwagon” fans completely differently. I’ve got other things (and people) in my life that are more worthy of my 2 to 3 hours spent watching another kings loss. I’m completely ok with people voting with their eyeballs and not tuning in when times are tough (especially 15 years of it). Give me some semblance of competence and force the team to win us back.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I may have missed the party on 2nd round pick talk... but at some point they become problematic because you can't possibly give contracts to all of them. We were relatively excited about the 2 we made this season (widely acknowledged outside the forum as good picks) and they can't sniff the floor.

Allonzo Trier went undrafted impressed the Knicks as a 2-way player enough to get a guaranteed 2 year deal almost immediately but he's out of the league this year. The reality is an overwhelming majority of players drafted outside the first round don't stick beyond a year or two.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I may have missed the party on 2nd round pick talk... but at some point they become problematic because you can't possibly give contracts to all of them. We were relatively excited about the 2 we made this season (widely acknowledged outside the forum as good picks) and they can't sniff the floor.

Allonzo Trier went undrafted impressed the Knicks as a 2-way player enough to get a guaranteed 2 year deal almost immediately but he's out of the league this year. The reality is an overwhelming majority of players drafted outside the first round don't stick beyond a year or two.

I agree second rounders don’t normally make a difference but this year there are several bigs that will likely be available. With the way the game is going non all star type centers might be who to target at that point in the draft.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I agree second rounders don’t normally make a difference but this year there are several bigs that will likely be available. With the way the game is going non all star type centers might be who to target at that point in the draft.

We still have 2, don't we? It's all quite convoluted, but I think we keep ours when all is said and done (deal with Clips) and we get the least valuable from the Bulls or Pistons. And of course its proven quite easy to buy them on draft day if you want them.

 

[steelevt]

I can tell you this. I have been a die hard fan for 30+ years. As I have gotten older, I have started to look at “bandwagon” fans completely differently. I’ve got other things (and people) in my life that are more worthy of my 2 to 3 hours spent watching another kings loss. I’m completely ok with people voting with their eyeballs and not tuning in when times are tough (especially 15 years of it). Give me some semblance of competence and force the team to win us back.

I don’t mind being looked at differently on the kings bandwagon. What you don’t see is the sign on the other side of the bandwagon that says “insane asylum or bust”

 

[pdxKingsFan]

There's a difference between being a lapsed fan when the team sucks and bandwaggonning, which to me means only hitching yourself to a winning team with no loyalty.

 

[iowamcnabb]

We still have 2, don't we? It's all quite convoluted, but I think we keep ours when all is said and done (deal with Clips) and we get the least valuable from the Bulls or Pistons. And of course its proven quite easy to buy them on draft day if you want them.

I was under the impression we traded one for Davis, one for Wright this year and then one future second which would leave us with just our own second this year. If we come away with one of the bigs I’m eyeing I’d be ok with that

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I was under the impression we traded one for Davis, one for Wright this year and then one future second which would leave us with just our own second this year. If we come away with one of the bigs I’m eyeing I’d be ok with that

This is what I found:
https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Kings.htm

Which I can't make heads or tails of - but it appears that our 2nd rounder was conditionally attached to the Clippers deal, where they also sent us a heavily protected pick. So I am going to call that a wash and we keep ours.

Then it looks like we either get a pick from the Bulls or Pistons depending on which is later.

I also have no clue how reliable that site is.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

This is what I found:
https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Kings.htm

Which I can't make heads or tails of - but it appears that our 2nd rounder was conditionally attached to the Clippers deal, where they also sent us a heavily protected pick. So I am going to call that a wash and we keep ours.

Then it looks like we either get a pick from the Bulls or Pistons depending on which is later.

I also have no clue how reliable that site is.

That site is confusing. I can't make heads or tails of it either. I would recommend:

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

Which makes a lot more sense but doesn't list picks that *haven't* been traded. So, basically, assume you keep any future picks unless they're listed in the second "outgoing" column.

The basic answer right now is that we hold all our own first rounders (and nobody else's), we hold all of our second rounders except 2024, and we have incoming seconds in 2022 (worse of Detroit/Chicago), 2024 (Portland), and 2025 (Portland). There's a chance that we pick up a 55-60 2022 2nd, and that we lose our own "highly protected" (unspecified) 2022 2nd, but those are likely not changing hands.

 

[ESP47]

I feel there might be someone’s burner account here.

Durant is at it again.

 

[The_Jamal]

That site is confusing. I can't make heads or tails of it either. I would recommend:

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

Which makes a lot more sense but doesn't list picks that *haven't* been traded. So, basically, assume you keep any future picks unless they're listed in the second "outgoing" column.

The basic answer right now is that we hold all our own first rounders (and nobody else's), we hold all of our second rounders except 2024, and we have incoming seconds in 2022 (worse of Detroit/Chicago), 2024 (Portland), and 2025 (Portland). There's a chance that we pick up a 55-60 2022 2nd, and that we lose our own "highly protected" (unspecified) 2022 2nd, but those are likely not changing hands.

With a team already a ton of younger 2nd round picks/developmental guys (Guy, James, Woodard, Ramsey and I think you could throw Davis/Metu now on that list), it's a big reason why I didn't really care that we took some shots with our 2nd rounders to consolidate into Wright. Davis as a player is easily worth a 2nd too.

I think and underrated value of having Wright on for next year is he lets you shop Buddy Hield for whatever you want in the off-season and you don't have to go find a replacement for him. Fox/Hali/Wright as the 3 main guards and I'm confident enough that one of the younger guards can step up and fill the 4th guard role. It was a value pick-up and turning a negative asset (CoJo dead money) into a positive one.

 

[joemama]

Kings at 7!
Keep the tank rolling.

 

[SLAB]

We’d legitimately be sitting with the TWolves if DeAaron didn’t go nuts and carry the team for two stretches this season. Lol

 

[pdxKingsFan]

We’d legitimately be sitting with the TWolves if DeAaron didn’t go nuts and carry the team for two stretches this season. Lol

hopefully its another one of those years where the team that "played honest but still sucks" gets a top pick.

Doesn't have to be 1 or 2, I'd settle for 3 or 4.

 

[serbiangoat]

We’d legitimately be sitting with the TWolves if DeAaron didn’t go nuts and carry the team for two stretches this season. Lol

Would we? Last year the Kings were 11-10 when Fox was inactive and 5 of the losses were 2 points or less. You could argue the team was less talented last year (although I would not I think Bjelica/Bogi were better than anything we have now aside from Fox/Hali) but there is not that much difference between those two teams in terms of talent.

 

[sactowndog]

Bogi sitting at 29 in Real plus minus.....

It’s not just the coach who sucks, it takes broad organizational talent to be this bad when trying to win


http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

 

[The_Jamal]

Yes, a stat that ranks Chris Chiozza 14th, Mike Muscala 27th, and ranks Bogi ahead of:

Kawhi Leonard
Jrue Holiday
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine
Donovan Mitchell
Julius Randle
Joe Ingles
Bam Adebayo
Jayson Tatum
Brad Beal
Devin Booker
KAT
De'Aaron Fox
Zion Williamson
Brandon Ingram


Is a stat we should take very seriously with no questions to its validity.

And if we want to keep going, Bogi has a higher DRPM than:

Mattise Thybulle
Jrue Holliday
Mikal Bridges
Kawhi Leonard
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Marcus Smart
Jayson Tatum


So either Bogi is secretly a top 15 player whose is better than 10 of the best defenders in basketball, or the the ESPN RPM stats are really bad and don't mean anything.

 

[macadocious]

Or... he came back from injury during a coaching change and the team went on a run and it’s a small sample regardless.

 

[sactowndog]

Yes, a stat that ranks Chris Chiozza 14th, Mike Muscala 27th, and ranks Bogi ahead of:

Kawhi Leonard
Jrue Holiday
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine
Donovan Mitchell
Julius Randle
Joe Ingles
Bam Adebayo
Jayson Tatum
Brad Beal
Devin Booker
KAT
De'Aaron Fox
Zion Williamson
Brandon Ingram


Is a stat we should take very seriously with no questions to its validity.

And if we want to keep going, Bogi has a higher DRPM than:

Mattise Thybulle
Jrue Holliday
Mikal Bridges
Kawhi Leonard
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Marcus Smart
Jayson Tatum


So either Bogi is secretly a top 15 player whose is better than 10 of the best defenders in basketball, or the the ESPN RPM stats are really bad and don't mean anything.

Relax dude. I didn’t say he was a top 50 player but you don’t get that high on Real plus minus without being a solid starter. Chris Chiozza has 10 minutes a game so nice try cherry picking your examples.

Any valid evaluation of the numbers factors out low minutes and games players.

 

[SLAB]

Yes, a stat that ranks Chris Chiozza 14th, Mike Muscala 27th, and ranks Bogi ahead of:

Kawhi Leonard
Jrue Holiday
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine
Donovan Mitchell
Julius Randle
Joe Ingles
Bam Adebayo
Jayson Tatum
Brad Beal
Devin Booker
KAT
De'Aaron Fox
Zion Williamson
Brandon Ingram


Is a stat we should take very seriously with no questions to its validity.

And if we want to keep going, Bogi has a higher DRPM than:

Mattise Thybulle
Jrue Holliday
Mikal Bridges
Kawhi Leonard
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Marcus Smart
Jayson Tatum


So either Bogi is secretly a top 15 player whose is better than 10 of the best defenders in basketball, or the the ESPN RPM stats are really bad and don't mean anything.

I don’t get too far into advanced stats. Okay, I lied, I barely even look at them / bother to understand them. But it always seems to me you can cherry pick certain advanced stats to fit your argument for or against any situation about nearly any player in the league.

 

[serbiangoat]

Yes, a stat that ranks Chris Chiozza 14th, Mike Muscala 27th, and ranks Bogi ahead of:

Kawhi Leonard
Jrue Holiday
Ben Simmons
Zach Lavine
Donovan Mitchell
Julius Randle
Joe Ingles
Bam Adebayo
Jayson Tatum
Brad Beal
Devin Booker
KAT
De'Aaron Fox
Zion Williamson
Brandon Ingram


Is a stat we should take very seriously with no questions to its validity.

And if we want to keep going, Bogi has a higher DRPM than:

Mattise Thybulle
Jrue Holliday
Mikal Bridges
Kawhi Leonard
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Marcus Smart
Jayson Tatum


So either Bogi is secretly a top 15 player whose is better than 10 of the best defenders in basketball, or the the ESPN RPM stats are really bad and don't mean anything.

Bogi when he can get his body on people is actually a pretty good defender cause he's very strong and has a massive wingspan, obviously not better than those guys but not bad at all unless there's ample space between him and the player with the ball or if he has to close out (which is where team defense comes in).

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don’t get too far into advanced stats. Okay, I lied, I barely even look at them / bother to understand them. But it always seems to me you can cherry pick certain advanced stats to fit your argument for or against any situation about nearly any player in the league.

I don't understand them myself. I'm sure used properly they are great. I also know that all the advanced stat nerds said we'd go crazy winning once Bagley got hurt because he sucks so bad per the advanced stats and that hasn't panned out. So many stats are designed to show a players worth in a vacuum and even during the pandemic we have yet to resort to playing games in a vacuum.

 

[ESP47]

I don't understand them myself. I'm sure used properly they are great. I also know that all the advanced stat nerds said we'd go crazy winning once Bagley got hurt because he sucks so bad per the advanced stats and that hasn't panned out. So many stats are designed to show a players worth in a vacuum and even during the pandemic we have yet to resort to playing games in a vacuum.

I don't recall anyone saying that. Especially since they don't have anyone backing him up that has good advanced metrics anyway.

There's no perfect stat but as faulty as RPM can be, take a look at the first page of it and you'll see most of the game's best players. I use stats like stock market indicators, the more you use in conjunction, the better chance you're going to have of getting an accurate read.

 

[sactowndog]

I don’t get too far into advanced stats. Okay, I lied, I barely even look at them / bother to understand them. But it always seems to me you can cherry pick certain advanced stats to fit your argument for or against any situation about nearly any player in the league.

That would be true of any stat. But at this point the only people not thinking letting Bogi go for nothing was not a mistake are on this board.