Trade Bagley?
- Thread starter Sac4cwebb
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Thats god awfull basketball and very bad basketball IQ. Thats one reason why a) we are one of the worst defending teams in history and b) why Bagley still isnt a net positive player. I've seen the same argument for three years in a row now that "it keeps getting better, hes making strides, hes showing flashes" ect. This type of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg but still its just horrible. Effort and athletisism doesnt fix basketball iq.
The track record of horrible defense combined with the worst assist% of all the players with +20% usage or one of the worst ast% in the whole league all in all is just not a recipe for a very valuable player. I dont know how long he will keep getting a pass with this "hes looking better" when in reality its probably time to call it what it is.
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Man, those plays. And they just kind of happen all throughout each game. The truth is, a large part of the reason his defense seems so improved is because Doug and Mark rave about it hard for the two plays he manages to be in the right spot.
I want to squint my eyes and see it at this point. I want it to work. I still want the team to keep playing him as much as possible out of pure stubbornness of him being the #2 pick in a loaded class and eventually living up to it.,, but man.
I want to squint my eyes and see it at this point. I want it to work. I still want the team to keep playing him as much as possible out of pure stubbornness of him being the #2 pick in a loaded class and eventually living up to it.,, but man.
To be fair, in that second play Bagley was set up to fail. He had to both guard the roll man going down the lane to prevent a layup AND stop the drive man who busted right around Barnes. Once Barrett blew by Barnes there was no way to stop it without giving a foul. Barnes could have given a grab foul, but by the time Bagley has actually stopped the pass, he's in the restricted area and can't step up for a charge. At that point you concede the layup rather than an and-1. If he recognizes that Barnes won't give the grab foul immediately on being burned, as Barnes should have, maybe Bagley can step up and foul Barrett before the pass to the now-open roll man. Maybe.
Can you share a resource for this? Been trying to look for advanced stat splits but have come up empty.
As for Bagley's defense, his mistakes will always be magnified, but it needs to be acknowledged that the entire team has had awful, head scratching, low IQ, unacceptable plays over the last two weeks. Bagley certainly hasn't been the worst defender on the team for at least the last month.
As for Bagley's defense, his mistakes will always be magnified, but it needs to be acknowledged that the entire team has had awful, head scratching, low IQ, unacceptable plays over the last two weeks. Bagley certainly hasn't been the worst defender on the team for at least the last month.
Here you go
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/
If you click on advanced filter then you can filter out which team, player or game.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/
If you click on advanced filter then you can filter out which team, player or game.
Its not even only about those two specific plays (that are absolutely horrible no matter how one would want to spin it). Its about why he has been a net negative per every (advanced) metric three years in a row. Those plays just demonstrate that fact. At some point we have to call spade a spade. His trade value is bad because he has been a bad player ever since he entered the league three years ago. Horrible defensive IQ, horrible AST% that demonstrates his lack of bbiq offensively too. His value wont be coming up very much unless you count on some gm being very stupid after a few 20/10 games by him.
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I would consider trading him because of his defensive lack of ability and his softness. He glides around the floor like he is playing for fun. I rarely see an intensity from him. He gets off the floor easily and often. It is a physical gift, but he is the easiest guy to get in the air on defense in the league. I call him "Hoppy."
The way this team plays defense, you can pick out a couple of defensive lapses from every single player every game. Fox, Cojo, Bjelica, Holmes....they all have them. Hyper focus on any player and the mistakes will stand out.
Bagley didn't have a particularly good defensive game, but he didn't give up 140pts by himself to the Knicks.
Bagley didn't have a particularly good defensive game, but he didn't give up 140pts by himself to the Knicks.
And as usual, when the whole situation stinks it's going to default back to the person calling the shots on the sideline. Bagley is a young big but the potential as a switch defender who can use his length effectively is there but it has to be used correctly. The type of defense the Kings run doesn't really rely on athletic ability, it's relies on length and help. That's why running 3 PG lineups or 4 G lineups is crazy. If you want players to help inside and rely on run outs they have to be able to cover vertical and lateral space. I think that type of help D is stupid in todays game regardless but my goodness, it's incompetent with the lineups they put out there if they are truly not trying to suck on defense.
And still Bagley is the player that have been a major net negative throghout his three years in the league. Its not about couple of clips, its about the whole body of work and those clips are only there to demonstrate a horrible BBIQ that is shown on tape, on advanced metrics and on stats like ast%.
The defense has been horrible for Bagley, offensively his AST% is one of the worst in the league. Thats bad basketball iq, thats why he is a net negative player and thats why his trade value is very low. Its his third year now and while we know that bbiq is rarely drastically developed after 3+ years in the league so I'm not sure what we are waiting for anymore
The defense has been horrible for Bagley, offensively his AST% is one of the worst in the league. Thats bad basketball iq, thats why he is a net negative player and thats why his trade value is very low. Its his third year now and while we know that bbiq is rarely drastically developed after 3+ years in the league so I'm not sure what we are waiting for anymore
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because
He is getting better so you would think his trade value would keep getting higher. I don't want him traded by the way but if you want to him traded, maybe the 2021 offseason is better.
Even though he is a third year player, he does not have many minutes. And most of his minutes was in a different system under a different coach. So it is tough to make judgement.
High basketball IQ players can produce in any system. Players like Bagley (not necessarily low IQ, I think he is ok btw), need a bit more structured and experience to produce. Case in point, his offense. He was horrible in the beginning of the year. Ever since he has a defined role in offense (corner 3, base-line cuts, offensive putbacks), he has been much better. And lately he has been very good as a roll man.
Those clips you watch don't really show horrible IQ. They are just 50/50 situations. For a team as bad defensively as this one, almost everything is a gamble. For a team as bad defensively as this one, it is not a single player's fault.
He is getting better so you would think his trade value would keep getting higher. I don't want him traded by the way but if you want to him traded, maybe the 2021 offseason is better.
Even though he is a third year player, he does not have many minutes. And most of his minutes was in a different system under a different coach. So it is tough to make judgement.
High basketball IQ players can produce in any system. Players like Bagley (not necessarily low IQ, I think he is ok btw), need a bit more structured and experience to produce. Case in point, his offense. He was horrible in the beginning of the year. Ever since he has a defined role in offense (corner 3, base-line cuts, offensive putbacks), he has been much better. And lately he has been very good as a roll man.
Those clips you watch don't really show horrible IQ. They are just 50/50 situations. For a team as bad defensively as this one, almost everything is a gamble. For a team as bad defensively as this one, it is not a single player's fault.
AST% would be a more appropriate measurement of success for a guard or a point forward. Bagley is in line with rim runners and big men who are not asked to initiate the offense. Essentially, this is criticizing Marvin for not doing something he has not ever been asked to do in his career.
This is like criticizing Buddy for not being a better shot blocker. Sure, there guards who have blocked a lot more shots than him, but that's not where the analysis of a 3 point shooting specialist should start.
This is like criticizing Buddy for not being a better shot blocker. Sure, there guards who have blocked a lot more shots than him, but that's not where the analysis of a 3 point shooting specialist should start.
Thats my point, I've heard the same thing for his entire career: "he is getting better". I wonder if it ever shows as him being a net positive player but my evaluation after his three years in the league is probably no.
Its not tough to make judgement. He has enough games on tape to evaluate stuff like basketball iq, possible ability to execute different things on the court like stretching the floor, creating for others, protecting the rim, defending the pick n roll ect. Plus this is his third year with being a full time athlete with acces to teams film room and trainers. Players dont often suddenly turn from being a clear net negative for three years in a row to a big net positive in their fourth year.
First of all the role you described is very limited and in that role its extremely hard to be a big net positive on offense since you are only a play finisher, dont create any offense for others and everything you do is created by some other player. This type of role is for defensive specialists or sharpshooters, those type of players create their value in other ways and thats their way of being a net positive. If thats the role you can only be asked to do and you are a very bad defender and not a sharpshooter, you probably wont be a net positive.
They are just clips and I dont really care about them because everyone has bad moments but the pick n roll defense was horrible, you can never defend that way and I have no idea what he was thinking. Big men are often in a situation where they have to guard the ball handler and the roll man in a pick n roll situations (thats the point of pick n roll game) and good defenders can do it at some level and bad ones not at all. But to me its irrelevant, they are just examples of the things that are clear to a lot of people: Bagley is a low bbiq player that has been a clear net negative for all his years in the league. Its very unfortunate that its the case but its still the case. Hopefully it gets better.
I'm not expecting guard level ast% but being nearly worst in the league certainly tells something since being able to pass the ball to a teammate in a position to score is at near the top of the list of things that are valuable in this sport. Also if yout USG is over 20% and out of those players your ast% is the worst, it also tells something and imo it matters and supports the point of view about Bagley and him not being a net positive player
Its not tough to make judgement. He has enough games on tape to evaluate stuff like basketball iq, possible ability to execute different things on the court like stretching the floor, creating for others, protecting the rim, defending the pick n roll ect. Plus this is his third year with being a full time athlete with acces to teams film room and trainers. Players dont often suddenly turn from being a clear net negative for three years in a row to a big net positive in their fourth year.
First of all the role you described is very limited and in that role its extremely hard to be a big net positive on offense since you are only a play finisher, dont create any offense for others and everything you do is created by some other player. This type of role is for defensive specialists or sharpshooters, those type of players create their value in other ways and thats their way of being a net positive. If thats the role you can only be asked to do and you are a very bad defender and not a sharpshooter, you probably wont be a net positive.
They are just clips and I dont really care about them because everyone has bad moments but the pick n roll defense was horrible, you can never defend that way and I have no idea what he was thinking. Big men are often in a situation where they have to guard the ball handler and the roll man in a pick n roll situations (thats the point of pick n roll game) and good defenders can do it at some level and bad ones not at all. But to me its irrelevant, they are just examples of the things that are clear to a lot of people: Bagley is a low bbiq player that has been a clear net negative for all his years in the league. Its very unfortunate that its the case but its still the case. Hopefully it gets better.
I'm not expecting guard level ast% but being nearly worst in the league certainly tells something since being able to pass the ball to a teammate in a position to score is at near the top of the list of things that are valuable in this sport. Also if yout USG is over 20% and out of those players your ast% is the worst, it also tells something and imo it matters and supports the point of view about Bagley and him not being a net positive player
Bagley isn't going to magically turn into a high IQ efficient player. How anybody with NBA experience could watch this guy in college and pick him over Luka Doncic, is beyond me. Probably the worst evaluation of talent, we've ever seen....which is really saying something, considering the history.
To answer the question. Yes, you trade him. Problem for them, is Ranadive will look like the fool that he is, with the return that comes back in the trade. Regardless, cut bait, get something, and move forward
To answer the question. Yes, you trade him. Problem for them, is Ranadive will look like the fool that he is, with the return that comes back in the trade. Regardless, cut bait, get something, and move forward
Agreed. When you're unable to exercise properly, let alone play basketball for a year, how in the world can that be counted as experience? The argument that he hasn't improved falls apart if you accept the fact that he had no opportunity to improve for a full year. So they must include that missed year to solidify their grievance. Next they're going to tell us Marvin should be more muscular because while he was rehabbing, he was watching other guys lift weights.
He is not. The same shortcomings are there that we saw on his college tape: He cant create any offense for others as his one of the lowest ast% proves, he is clearly a bad defender, he isnt a great floor spacer even if he might have improved some on that. Behind all that, all of the (advanced) metrics still indicate that hes still as much of a net negative as he has been since he entered the league.
Basketball IQ related stuff would've improved already if it was to improve drastically. Hes still bad as a help defender or as a pick n roll defender, offensively he doesnt seem to be able to do much else than just finish plays. That stuff would've developed by being a part of a professional organisation but since its even very rare that this type of stuff developes a lot its very tough to still hope for that after 3,4,5 being in the league.
His trade value is very low so its debatable wether its worth it to trade him now. For me I would just take the very late first if we were lucky, even couple of seconds and maybe a cost controlled player attached to that. Better to get something rather than nothing and imo we are only waiting for one gm overvaluing him because waiting on him becoming a net positive starting level player is not happening.
Arguing that being injured means you are not having an opportunity to develope is false imo. You can do a lot of stuff while rehabing, watching tape, improving your handle, learning the game ect especially if you want to improve some basketball iq related stuff. Its hard to improve and thats why you shouldnt bank on that either way but if a player is clearly a net negative in his third year with the same exact concerngs in his game, then expecting him to suddenly become a net positive is a lost cause imo. Especially considering what the concerns in his game are
Basketball IQ related stuff would've improved already if it was to improve drastically. Hes still bad as a help defender or as a pick n roll defender, offensively he doesnt seem to be able to do much else than just finish plays. That stuff would've developed by being a part of a professional organisation but since its even very rare that this type of stuff developes a lot its very tough to still hope for that after 3,4,5 being in the league.
His trade value is very low so its debatable wether its worth it to trade him now. For me I would just take the very late first if we were lucky, even couple of seconds and maybe a cost controlled player attached to that. Better to get something rather than nothing and imo we are only waiting for one gm overvaluing him because waiting on him becoming a net positive starting level player is not happening.
Arguing that being injured means you are not having an opportunity to develope is false imo. You can do a lot of stuff while rehabing, watching tape, improving your handle, learning the game ect especially if you want to improve some basketball iq related stuff. Its hard to improve and thats why you shouldnt bank on that either way but if a player is clearly a net negative in his third year with the same exact concerngs in his game, then expecting him to suddenly become a net positive is a lost cause imo. Especially considering what the concerns in his game are
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