[The Athletic] Dumars has no interest in being the long-term head of basketball operations, and will not be a candidate in the search.
- Thread starter KainLear
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He started with Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thaddeus Young, and Hawes. Turned it into Korkmaz, Grant, Noel, Saric, Covington, Embiid, and Simmons. I can’t think of a better trade GM he got 1st round picks in every trade, got rid of MCW after his ROY campaign when nobody else would’ve.
So ya he turned trash into gold he’s a genius
So ya he turned trash into gold he’s a genius
Kindly wondering, what Western division team rosters would you not exchange the whole of the Kings roster for right now?
Warriors will be back and Timberwolves have the 1st pick. Suns undefeated 8 and 0 in the reset.
Salary capped out with bad contracts, Buddy, Barnes, Joseph and Parker. Bogie to get 15mil with Fox -max and Bagley contracts looming.
Or are you going to use the 12th pick and 2 2nd rounders to beat out all the other teams in the west playoff hunt, or become a top 5 team?
30 year plus season ticket holder here. You just can't add incrementally here. It needs to be entirely off-loaded and rebuilt.
(btw The inside track on the thinking inside, there is real fear by ownership. It is twofold: 1. that if they truly do a total rebuild, they will be hit hard in their pocketbook for a while and 2. it's for the world to see, and the NBA...remember when the NBA stepped into the picture in Philly. )
Warriors will be back and Timberwolves have the 1st pick. Suns undefeated 8 and 0 in the reset.
Salary capped out with bad contracts, Buddy, Barnes, Joseph and Parker. Bogie to get 15mil with Fox -max and Bagley contracts looming.
Or are you going to use the 12th pick and 2 2nd rounders to beat out all the other teams in the west playoff hunt, or become a top 5 team?
30 year plus season ticket holder here. You just can't add incrementally here. It needs to be entirely off-loaded and rebuilt.
(btw The inside track on the thinking inside, there is real fear by ownership. It is twofold: 1. that if they truly do a total rebuild, they will be hit hard in their pocketbook for a while and 2. it's for the world to see, and the NBA...remember when the NBA stepped into the picture in Philly. )
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I don't think tearing it down is the right thing to do or even worth it right now, they just need to find some sense of what they have and that starts with a coach that fits the players. In terms of the roster they need to cut the fat from the rotation. Sorry, they wasted all their time to see if Bogdan and Buddy can work long term. They blew it and never gave them a decent chance so times up. Firstly, let the free agents go with the exception of maybe Baze on a short term deal, overpaid. Baze is an intangibles guy so he'll always have a role for one reason or another and never be the type that has no value in a worst case scenario. Bogdan isn't and neither is Giles. They are the types that will tank their deals if used wrong and yes, you can't cement your cap with those types since so many others on the cap sheet are on that path already. Bogdan being used as a traditional SG is basically just Buddy light so what's the point. I still think Giles' best bet is to travel overseas and see if he can develop both his body and his game in a league that will probably utilize his skills much more effectively than the NBA will right now. Hold your wallet in FA and see if you can get a coach that is able to make sense of the core pieces here, Fox, Buddy, and Bagley. At the very least build those players up more and more individually then see what you have by the deadline. If it appears to be souring they should have built some value after the near dismantling of individual value caused by the last two coaches. That's when I think you re-assess. The Kings have one thing working for them and that's that Vlade at least didn't sign any of the role player filler guys to eternal contracts only core pieces. The only really overpaid role guy that this point is Cory Joseph. There is a small window before Bagley gets extended to make a semi-rebuild work cap wise. But signing Bogdan back to what he'll be seeking will probably crush that possibility.
I understand what you are asking but the simple fact is if I wanted to root for a different group of players I could simply root for that team. But I root for this team and this group of players. I expect many of them to be gone before the team is relevant again but as they are swapped out, I want to be able to root for their replacements. If that makes any sort of sense.
You seem to be indicating that you feel that the team needs torn down lock, stock and barrel. But ownership (not sure if you mean Vivek or some of the minority owners or both) are afraid of suffering financially for a long time and that they are afraid the league will intervene if they attempt so. Are you reading tea leaves or information from the inside? Curious which one.
As far as financial losses, catch-22. Continue floundering and they will continue to bleed fans. If they embark on tear down and suffering losses, sorry, no sympathy. They made this mess.
As far as the league intervening, I would think that they should know how to ask/find out what the boundaries are. You can tear down and rebuild but not do it in so blatant a manner as to how Hinkie did it. Don't be unsportsmanlike about it.
You seem to be indicating that you feel that the team needs torn down lock, stock and barrel. But ownership (not sure if you mean Vivek or some of the minority owners or both) are afraid of suffering financially for a long time and that they are afraid the league will intervene if they attempt so. Are you reading tea leaves or information from the inside? Curious which one.
As far as financial losses, catch-22. Continue floundering and they will continue to bleed fans. If they embark on tear down and suffering losses, sorry, no sympathy. They made this mess.
As far as the league intervening, I would think that they should know how to ask/find out what the boundaries are. You can tear down and rebuild but not do it in so blatant a manner as to how Hinkie did it. Don't be unsportsmanlike about it.
Yeah, they fell in his lap because that was the most likely scenario to happen.
If you wanna talk about lucky, look no further than Vlade moving up twice consecutively from the 8th lottery spot.
That doesnt happen, and we're Charlotte or the Knicks, and even then he screwed up so badly it's still not much better.
Sorry, I want no more of building the "right" way.
If you wanna talk about lucky, look no further than Vlade moving up twice consecutively from the 8th lottery spot.
That doesnt happen, and we're Charlotte or the Knicks, and even then he screwed up so badly it's still not much better.
Sorry, I want no more of building the "right" way.
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How many consensus Picks has Vlade missed out on though? It's really not a fair comparison
If we never give the Kings credit for drafting Fox at 5th because it's the "obvious" choice, then i don't really wanna hear anyone fawning all over Hinkie for making two of the most obvious choices in draft history. Hinkie didn't build the wrong way or right way IMO. They simply tanked like everyone else tanks, but were simply more open about it. Yay, i guess.
If we never give the Kings credit for drafting Fox at 5th because it's the "obvious" choice, then i don't really wanna hear anyone fawning all over Hinkie for making two of the most obvious choices in draft history. Hinkie didn't build the wrong way or right way IMO. They simply tanked like everyone else tanks, but were simply more open about it. Yay, i guess.
Hinkie simply just didn’t tank you’ll have a hard time naming any other franchise that had the draft picks that Hinkie left Philadelphia with.
Also Grant/Shamet/Holmes were players he drafted outside of the top 25 and he signed Christian Wood. So it’s not like he blind lucked into talent
Also Grant/Shamet/Holmes were players he drafted outside of the top 25 and he signed Christian Wood. So it’s not like he blind lucked into talent
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It's not really about making the consensus pick, he put them in a position to draft those players by tanking the way he did and acquiring the picks he did. It didn't even necessarily need to be Embiid and Simmons; they just needed to hit on 1-2 guys.
Vlade actively sabotaged his draft chances with pointless veteran contacts, and an abject refusal to take on picks for dead salary, yet got lucky in spite of it. Vlade was the anti-Hinkie, they took a staunch anti-tanking stance and now look like idiots.
Vlade actively sabotaged his draft chances with pointless veteran contacts, and an abject refusal to take on picks for dead salary, yet got lucky in spite of it. Vlade was the anti-Hinkie, they took a staunch anti-tanking stance and now look like idiots.
Maybe Hinkie overdo the tanking. But the mindset is suitable for small market like the Kings. Top talent won't come to sign here and they are not usually available in trades. Even if you want to trade one you need the assets. Thus in terms of talent or asset you have to acquire from the picks.
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I agree with this. I'll say this about Hinkie. Granted, the current 76ers squad has not been that successful. I don't really care about that because the asset accumulation in constructing that team was/is obvious. I do wholeheartedly believe in the law of averages and having more bullets/assets. Some draft picks just aren't going to work out, period. But if you have enough bullets you should end up in a better place than you would if you hadn't had those extra assets. The Hinkie style rebuild is intriguing to me because it's a full-boat rebuild, no BS patches. You try to accumulate as many draft assets as possible - then, when ready, you cash them in and see what happens. I think our current roster is no-mans land. Not good enough to be truly competitive, but just good enough to keep our management hopelessly chasing a 4-game sweep as an 8th seed. Is that really what we're after here?
I actually like the way this is expressed. The Kings have indeed failed to "reasonably tactically tank" I can agree with that. I would oppose a concerted multi-year megatank like Hinkie did, but I would not hate it if the Kings were more strategic and forward thinking during some of the lost seasons, or if they had maybe stocked up on future draft picks and bad contracts for like a season as a means to an end. I just do happen to think "Hinkie overdo the tanking" and it became like a dope fiend who solves his dope problem with more dope.
Maybe we can get somebody who falls somewhere in the middle.
Maybe we can get somebody who falls somewhere in the middle.
Just about anything is considered a flex when we're comparing it to the Kings.
It's just you'd think people were joking when they say that if the Kings had a choice between 4 analytic driven front office people from successful organizations and Scott Perry.....that they'd choose Scott Perry. It seems like people just cracking jokes but the sad thing is it's the most realistic decision in the Kangz world that we've all been accustomed to.
I mean they can't even find a GM without a bunch of weirdness going on. Dumars is the stand in GM and then all the sudden he's tasked in helping find a GM and then they hire a GM hiring firm and then they say they're going to keep Walton even though not letting the GM hire the coach completely back fired in their face in the past.
It makes you wonder how Vivek ever became a multimillionaire entrepreneur.
It's just you'd think people were joking when they say that if the Kings had a choice between 4 analytic driven front office people from successful organizations and Scott Perry.....that they'd choose Scott Perry. It seems like people just cracking jokes but the sad thing is it's the most realistic decision in the Kangz world that we've all been accustomed to.
I mean they can't even find a GM without a bunch of weirdness going on. Dumars is the stand in GM and then all the sudden he's tasked in helping find a GM and then they hire a GM hiring firm and then they say they're going to keep Walton even though not letting the GM hire the coach completely back fired in their face in the past.
It makes you wonder how Vivek ever became a multimillionaire entrepreneur.
It's not just that he tanked, but he made solid moves along the way too.
-Trading MCW for a first round pick
-Traded Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and a first round pick (Noel was a decent prospect at the time)
-Traded Elfrid Payton for Dario Saric and a 2nd rounder
-Traded Thaddeus Young for Luc Mbah A Moute and a first
-The Stauskas trade
Drafting record certainly not the best, but he recognized that the 76ers were a perennial 8th - 10th seed, 40 max win team, that struggled to sign top free agents. Now what team does that sound like? So he wheeled and dealed, and yes definitely tanked, to try and eventually acquire as many impact players as he could to make the team a more sustainable playoff team long term. Whether or not he would've accomplished that is unknown. The team now is more of a reflection of current management. But his logic was very sound whether anyone wants to admit. To win you need stars. To get stars you need to be in Los Angeles, or get them in the draft. He tried to increase his odds of having the latter happen by employing this aggresive strategy. After years of us failing to put anything meaningful together by the "Approved" method, I certainly wouldn't mind us trying this strategy out.
-Trading MCW for a first round pick
-Traded Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and a first round pick (Noel was a decent prospect at the time)
-Traded Elfrid Payton for Dario Saric and a 2nd rounder
-Traded Thaddeus Young for Luc Mbah A Moute and a first
-The Stauskas trade
Drafting record certainly not the best, but he recognized that the 76ers were a perennial 8th - 10th seed, 40 max win team, that struggled to sign top free agents. Now what team does that sound like? So he wheeled and dealed, and yes definitely tanked, to try and eventually acquire as many impact players as he could to make the team a more sustainable playoff team long term. Whether or not he would've accomplished that is unknown. The team now is more of a reflection of current management. But his logic was very sound whether anyone wants to admit. To win you need stars. To get stars you need to be in Los Angeles, or get them in the draft. He tried to increase his odds of having the latter happen by employing this aggresive strategy. After years of us failing to put anything meaningful together by the "Approved" method, I certainly wouldn't mind us trying this strategy out.
I haven't read the thread to know. But I think what Hinkie did made sense given the 76ers situation. The team wasn't drawing fans. No superstars ever considering them as a viable free agency destination. They hadn't realistically competed in the playoffs in over 10 years. The team was just sort of treading water and weren't making the season over season improvements necessary to become really good. So Hinkie decided to try and speed up the timeline and employed this strategy. Controversial as it was/is, saying Hinkie didn't do anything but tank doesn't give him enough credit. The rate and success that he acquired draft picks should be at least partially commended. Again, I think it's only because I see a lot of parallels between where we are at now and where those 76ers teams were that makes me intrigued by that strategy. Hinkie personally is not my first choice, but he's someone I'd support fully if that is the route Vivek and team wanted to go.
The Kings biggest problem is the failure to apparently comprehend the players they've tanked for or drafted. We've seen so much misuse of personnel under the last 2 coaches it would be enough to drive anyone with a shred of basketball sense within the organization mad. Keep cleaning Vivek. He needs to purge his scouting department, his media department has been better lately but check in there too, empty that coaches chair, keep shaking up the front office and start fresh. This franchise has been been haunted by Viveks wrongly timed and half ***ed moves. Quite wasting your time and ours Vivek. Get this moving along in some direction all at one time.
Seriously.
It doesn't even have to be Hinkie, or do something as extreme as Hinkie. But is it so much to try to do a conventional rebuild with one of those other options? Just no "right" way to rebuild, which was a completely manufactured narrative.
Scott Perry is more of the Vlade MO. Those pointless veteran contracts were his idea, and his time in NY backs that up. Have they themselves done any smart rebuilding moves like maximizing draft and young talent capital? The Knicks just seem to sign leftover veterans after the FA pool runs out, being content to pick in the 8th or 9th spot every year and run on the treadmill.
It doesn't even have to be Hinkie, or do something as extreme as Hinkie. But is it so much to try to do a conventional rebuild with one of those other options? Just no "right" way to rebuild, which was a completely manufactured narrative.
Scott Perry is more of the Vlade MO. Those pointless veteran contracts were his idea, and his time in NY backs that up. Have they themselves done any smart rebuilding moves like maximizing draft and young talent capital? The Knicks just seem to sign leftover veterans after the FA pool runs out, being content to pick in the 8th or 9th spot every year and run on the treadmill.
If Vivek had sided with Malone over Pete, or if he had sided with Joerger over Vlade... we would be infinitely better off. I think it is an out-dated ethos that the GM has to be the head coaches boss. eff that. It is ironic that Vivek started out with a bang putting Mike Malone in charge. If only he had let that ride... smh
One of the unspoken things about head scratching signings is sometimes the signings are done as a goodwill builder. Sign a vet under an agent, who needs to find a home for that vet. So later, that agent can repay you with one of his more desirable clients. Or, in Vlade’s case, sign Dujan Dukan to help out a kid and his dad, who is your homie.
As we’ve seen, more often than not, those signings result in net negative value to the team.
As we’ve seen, more often than not, those signings result in net negative value to the team.
