Is Giles really a future center?

bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#31
#31
kingsboi said:
No, he is a PF and just so happens Bagley plays the same position so one of them will eventually move to center and the Kings will be playing small ball 5, if Giles develops as the Kings hope he will. Otherwise, he can be used as a backup PF moving forward if he never pans out for whatever reason.
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I tend to agree with you that both Bagley and Giles look more like PF's than centers, but I thought this was interesting.

Jarrett Allen: 6'10.25" in shoes - 7'5.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 233 Lbs.
Harry Giles: 6'10.5" in shoes - 7'3.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 232 Lbs.

I thought it was a bit ironic because most all people think of Allen as a legit center, and he is currently a starting center in the NBA. But for some reason people, myself included don't think of Giles as a center. Obviously there are other pluses and minuses that enter in to it, but size alone isn't the determining factor.
 
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bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#32
#32
jcassio said:
Harry Giles:
Height: 6′ 10″
Wingspan: 7′ 3″
Weight: 240 lbs

Marvin Bagley:
Height: 6′ 10.5″
Wingspan: 7′ 0.5″
Weight: 235 lbs

Both will get stronger, and both will get better on both sides of the ball. But it remains to be seen which one will be more effective at center, and, when playing together, which one will be virtually ungardable in the low post (without doubling) and which one will be better at speading the floor with outside shooting. If they both develop equally on all fronts, that can't be a bad thing - except for those of us who insist on giving players a single position title.
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You measurement of Giles is close and I'm not going to argue over a half an inch, but the only listed measurement of Bagley, which you've posted, was taken at one of the highschool all star games when he was 16 or 17 years old. He didn't get measured at the combine, so it's highly likely that he has grown a bit since that measurement. However, we've seen him play and I think we have a pretty good idea of where he can play.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#33
#33
Ozymandias said:
I would love to know who was the big guy in lastyears draft Vlade was hoping fell to them in the 2nd rd, then when he was picked that triggered the trade/sale to Portland..... I'd bet it was in fact Mitchell Robinson... Vlade has demonstrated a high degree of competency, and i think thats the most likely name. (*I'm very good at Guess Who?, i beat my neices in like 3 turns everytime). He coulda been hoping for Robert Williams who the Celtics scooped up at the very end of the 1st..... Both of these players fit a shotblocking archetype that seems to be a match here with the 3rd C spot on depth chart.


For you draft watchers out there if the above is true, they had eyes on Robinson or Williams --- a name to watch this years draft is Arkansas Daniel Gafford, who's 6"11 long armed and super athletic, has some touch around the rim too. Projected around our range or just a wee bit ahead, and there's been these types of players falling down boards for many years now, so it's not too unrealisitc..

If you believe Harry is a C, you might think a player like this is redundant, but I think he could be potentially a nice compliment. Harry would play the 4 next to Gafford.. We have our skilled bigs already in place, it's time for some brute force, Gafford is a runner like Willie and he's not gonna back down. could be nice long-term investment.


He runs like the wind too. definitely a match for the high pace.
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I could certainly buy into Vlade hoping Robinson falling to us, but not Williams. I wasn't very high on Williams and I'm still not. Sorry Robert! I like the idea of Gafford, but my gut tells me that some team at the bottom of the 1st rd is going to nab him.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#35
#35
bajaden said:
I tend to agree with you that both Bagley and Giles look more like PF's than centers, but I thought this was interesting.

Jarrett Allen: 6'10.25" in shoes - 7'5.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 233 Lbs.
Harry Giles: 6'10.5" in shoes - 7'3.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 232 Lbs.

I thought is was a bit ironic because most all people think of Allen as a legit center, and he is currently a starting center in the NBA. But for some reason people, myself included don't think of Giles as a center. Obviously there are other pluses and minuses that enter in to it, but size alone isn't the determining factor.
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According to basketball-reference, Allen is 6'11 and 237 lbs. -----> https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenja01.html

I think Allen is being labeled more of a center because he had 120 blocks for the season, where as Harry had 22 according to ---> https://stats.nba.com/player/1628385/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Totals

Not saying blocks are the main factor in determining whether a player is a center or not but traditionally when you think of a center, you think of a player that can hold his ground and Giles wasn't able to do so, at least not yet until he fills out.
 
jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#36
#36
bajaden said:
You measurement of Giles is close and I'm not going to argue over a half an inch, but the only listed measurement of Bagley, which you've posted, was taken at one of the highschool all star games when he was 16 or 17 years old. He didn't get measured at the combine, so it's highly likely that he has grown a bit since that measurement. However, we've seen him play and I think we have a pretty good idea of where he can play.
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Right. I wasn't pretending to be perfect with the measurements. Sorry if that's the impression I gave.
I wanted to show how close they are in their measurements, which also fits the eye test for me.
If you ever have the chance to see them standing next to each other (and you're at the same level), the thing I notice is that Bags' shoulders are 1-2" higher than Giles, which sort of cancels out Giles' greater wingspan. Then Harry has the bigger hands, but Bags has the quickest jump...
 
macadocious

macadocious

Starter
#37
#37
bajaden said:
I tend to agree with you that both Bagley and Giles look more like PF's than centers, but I thought this was interesting.

Jarrett Allen: 6'10.25" in shoes - 7'5.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 233 Lbs.
Harry Giles: 6'10.5" in shoes - 7'3.25" wingspan - 9'1.5" standing reach - 232 Lbs.

I thought is was a bit ironic because most all people think of Allen as a legit center, and he is currently a starting center in the NBA. But for some reason people, myself included don't think of Giles as a center. Obviously there are other pluses and minuses that enter in to it, but size alone isn't the determining factor.
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Its the Fro
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#38
#38
Having watched both, Allen is noticeable bigger than Giles. He's also much stronger than him. big reasons. Giles got constantly bullied last year... to the point where he was unplayable bad. Think of all the early season fouling... eeek.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#39
#39
kingsboi said:
According to basketball-reference, Allen is 6'11 and 237 lbs. -----> https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenja01.html

I think Allen is being labeled more of a center because he had 120 blocks for the season, where as Harry had 22 according to ---> https://stats.nba.com/player/1628385/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Totals

Not saying blocks are the main factor in determining whether a player is a center or not but traditionally when you think of a center, you think of a player that can hold his ground and Giles wasn't able to do so, at least not yet until he fills out.
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As I said, there are other factors involved in being a center. My measurements came from the recent combine.
https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/#!?sort=WINGSPAN&dir=1
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#41
#41
206Fan said:
Having watched both, Allen is noticeable bigger than Giles. He's also much stronger than him. big reasons. Giles got constantly bullied last year... to the point where he was unplayable bad. Think of all the early season fouling... eeek.
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I know in my mind, he seems bigger, but the measurements I listed are the official measurements from the NBA combine. So in fact, he's not bigger. He just plays bigger.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#43
#43
bajaden said:
I know in my mind, he seems bigger, but the measurements I listed are the official measurements from the NBA combine. So in fact, he's not bigger. He just plays bigger.
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But is Giles still that size? I wouldn't be surprised if Giles played this year in the 220-225 range considering his knees. I would suspect this summer they'll look to add bulk to his frame which is another test for him.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#44
#44
SacTownKid said:
Whether or not someone is a center has a lot to do with mindset. Example: Willie Cauley-Stein.
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This is simply not true. for example I'm 6'1 and I have a neice who's 5 years old. Nomatter what her mindset is, she can't grab rebounds over me, even if my mindset isn't like a formula 1 racer, trying to win every cm.

i'm too big and fast and i track the ball way above where she could possibly reach and thats how it is in the NBA too, just obviously not nearly as big of a size discrepancy.


earlier in this decade the tallest player in the league was only listed at 7'2, and that was Gobert I think, and he's not even really 7'2, the "true giants" 7'2" and above are increasing rapidly since then.... and that figures to go on into the 2020's and frankly --- forever....

It stands to reason also with the PF position shrinking and becoming more mobile, that you want a massive space eater at the 5... This is why Victor Wembanyana 2004-born French Phenom, has a legitimate claim as the best amatuer prospect, up there with Emoni Bates..


To fight this would actually be to fight a prevailing trend that will continue literally for 100's of years... As the game spreads to bigger populated nations, it stands to reason the league getting taller is a natural course.. It's a population theory type of deal..
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#45
#45
206Fan said:
Having watched both, Allen is noticeable bigger than Giles. He's also much stronger than him. big reasons. Giles got constantly bullied last year... to the point where he was unplayable bad. Think of all the early season fouling... eeek.
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Maybe I'm just looking through fanboy glasses but I was actually pretty impressed with Giles' defense last year after his initial "welcome to the NBA" first couple of months he had. I never expected him to be able to body up on the large centers so that was of no real surprise to me. He started showing great instincts and elite hands at times later in the year that really caught my attention. Like to the point where I started thinking he could potentially play almost Draymond like defense at some point in his career. I know a lot of people that thought Bagley was a better defender than Giles this year but the advanced stats say Giles was quite a bit better than Bags.

The flashes he showed kind of reminded me in a round about way of Cousins' first year in the league. His efficiency was atrocious but you saw glimpses in there of him being able to do things that no other big man in the game could do. Fast forward 5 years and he was routinely doing those things on a minute by minute basis. I think if we're patient we might end up seeing the same types of things from Giles. Not from a strictly scoring standpoint but just from an all around game standpoint. If he can cut the fouling down and steadily improve, he could easily be the anchor of the defense in a couple years.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#46
#46
Ozymandias said:
This is simply not true. for example I'm 6'1 and I have a neice who's 5 years old. Nomatter what her mindset is, she can't grab rebounds over me, even if my mindset isn't like a formula 1 racer, trying to win every cm.

i'm too big and fast and i track the ball way above where she could possibly reach and thats how it is in the NBA too, just obviously not nearly as big of a size discrepancy.


earlier in this decade the tallest player in the league was only listed at 7'2, and that was Gobert I think, and he's not even really 7'2, the "true giants" 7'2" and above are increasing rapidly since then.... and that figures to go on into the 2020's and frankly --- forever....

It stands to reason also with the PF position shrinking and becoming more mobile, that you want a massive space eater at the 5... This is why Victor Wembanyana 2004-born French Phenom, has a legitimate claim as the best amatuer prospect, up there with Emoni Bates..


To fight this would actually be to fight a prevailing trend that will continue literally for 100's of years... As the game spreads to bigger populated nations, it stands to reason the league getting taller is a natural course.. It's a population theory type of deal..
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Well, then the Kings better draft Tacko Fall I guess. lol.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#47
#47
ESP47 said:
Maybe I'm just looking through fanboy glasses but I was actually pretty impressed with Giles' defense last year after his initial "welcome to the NBA" first couple of months he had. I never expected him to be able to body up on the large centers so that was of no real surprise to me. He started showing great instincts and elite hands at times later in the year that really caught my attention. Like to the point where I started thinking he could potentially play almost Draymond like defense at some point in his career. I know a lot of people that thought Bagley was a better defender than Giles this year but the advanced stats say Giles was quite a bit better than Bags.

The flashes he showed kind of reminded me in a round about way of Cousins' first year in the league. His efficiency was atrocious but you saw glimpses in there of him being able to do things that no other big man in the game could do. Fast forward 5 years and he was routinely doing those things on a minute by minute basis. I think if we're patient we might end up seeing the same types of things from Giles. Not from a strictly scoring standpoint but just from an all around game standpoint. If he can cut the fouling down and steadily improve, he could easily be the anchor of the defense in a couple years.
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I think we saw 2 different Giles.. he was very frustrating for me to watch on that end.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#49
#49
ESP47 said:
What's your take on Bagley on that end?
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He was also another frustrating big man on that end.. He's stronger than he looks, I would say he got less bullied than Giles with big men, but Giles had more matchups. Bagley has the lateral quickness to defend out in the perimeter. However, his defensive IQ was very bad which was probably the main reason why he was bad. I do think Bagley has a lot of defensive potential, and he did flash it. It's a wait and see game.

I know these are very negative takes on our young players for defense, but it's just what I saw through the season. I was also very hyper critical of Fox's defense in his rookie year, but I can say that Fox tremendously improved that end to be a borderline good defender this season (I say borderline because of inconsistency).
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#51
#51
206Fan said:
He was also another frustrating big man on that end.. He's stronger than he looks, I would say he got less bullied than Giles with big men, but Giles had more matchups. Bagley has the lateral quickness to defend out in the perimeter. However, his defensive IQ was very bad which was probably the main reason why he was bad. I do think Bagley has a lot of defensive potential, and he did flash it. It's a wait and see game.

I know these are very negative takes on our young players for defense, but it's just what I saw through the season. I was also very hyper critical of Fox's defense in his rookie year, but I can say that Fox tremendously improved that end to be a borderline good defender this season (I say borderline because of inconsistency).
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It's extremely rare for any young player to come into the NBA and be a defensive wiz. Defense isn't emphasized nearly as much in college as it is in the NBA. To add to Bagley's woes, Duke decided to play a zone defense a majority of the time, which didn't help his development. The NBA plays a lot of switching defenses that requires a lot of experience, and the ability to trust your teammates. It's no accident that our P&R defense improved when Barnes arrived. He made the right switches at the right time.

Walton was able to improve the defense of a very young Laker team, so that bodes well for the Kings next season. It's going to take time, but just improving your plus/minus 1 point can make the difference in winning another 3 or 4 games or more during a season. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the jury is still out when passing judgement on the Kings future defensive abilities. At the end of the day, it usually comes down to desire. Even the least athletic player on the team can become decent if he has the desire to do so.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#52
#52
206Fan said:
He was also another frustrating big man on that end.. He's stronger than he looks, I would say he got less bullied than Giles with big men, but Giles had more matchups. Bagley has the lateral quickness to defend out in the perimeter. However, his defensive IQ was very bad which was probably the main reason why he was bad. I do think Bagley has a lot of defensive potential, and he did flash it. It's a wait and see game.

I know these are very negative takes on our young players for defense, but it's just what I saw through the season. I was also very hyper critical of Fox's defense in his rookie year, but I can say that Fox tremendously improved that end to be a borderline good defender this season (I say borderline because of inconsistency).
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There usually aren't a whole lot of positive things to say about the defense of most rookies. That's why I look for flashes in their defense. Bagley showed really good lateral quickness on the perimeter. Not quite WCS like but well above average for a player his size. I thought he got bullied in the little amount he played center but his pick and roll IQ was god awful from what I saw. Obviously correctable but probably not something you want to test out a lot in a season with playoff hopes. I thought his defense at PF looked promising and his defense at C looked as bad as advertised coming out of college.

I just think Giles has just shown way more natural instincts on that side of the ball despite not having the same quickness and athleticism. Bagley would have blown most of these pick and roll plays that Giles stymied.

 
C

Cojc

Bench
#53
#53
This off season I see Giles getting stronger and he will have much more experience as the upcoming season starts.
Will he struggle against certain opponents? Yes he will but it’s the coaches job to help with the match ups.

One way or another we need a strong center to match up with some of the bruisers around the league so vlade has a choice to make. Let’s hope he chooses wisely.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#57
#57
ESP47 said:
I think Giles will wind up being a lot better than Collins. Zach had some pretty impressive games in the playoffs but Giles is much better than Collins was during their rookie seasons. If he can get the fouling under control, he's going to be a really good defensive player. In the end Zach will probably be better at shot blocking and 3pt shooting but I think Giles will be better at every thing else.
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Giles has to fix his shooting form and quit crossing his face as he brings the ball up to shoot. His touch his good but the crossways action affects his shooting.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#58
#58
sactowndog said:
Giles has to fix his shooting form and quit crossing his face as he brings the ball up to shoot. His touch his good but the crossways action affects his shooting.
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He shot 73% from 3 in the G League!

But seriously yeah he does need to tweak his form a bit. It's not like his shot is broken but you can see it's not as smooth or reliable as Bagley's.

He did improve his FT shooting a decent amount as the year went on though.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#59
#59
ESP47 said:
He shot 73% from 3 in the G League!

But seriously yeah he does need to tweak his form a bit. It's not like his shot is broken but you can see it's not as smooth or reliable as Bagley's.

He did improve his FT shooting a decent amount as the year went on though.
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Yes but some of that improvement was slowing down his overall stroke so the cross face action wasn’t a problem. That won’t work for non-free throw shooting.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#60
#60
For years we had G, F and C. Then we got 1-5 positions and a lot of pigeonholing of players.
The big dominant strong men of the NBA are mostly gone.
I think now what you need is guys that can play. The modern game rewards being able to run the floor from all 5 positions, shooting the 3 and defense. Giles and Bagley together can probably handle most situations. If the Kings had an Aaron Baynes type guy to call on they would be fine at the 5.
 
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