Is Giles really a future center?

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#2
Post moved to its own thread since it's pretty much the textbook definition of "derail". ;)
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#5
No, he is a PF and just so happens Bagley plays the same position so one of them will eventually move to center and the Kings will be playing small ball 5, if Giles develops as the Kings hope he will. Otherwise, he can be used as a backup PF moving forward if he never pans out for whatever reason.
 
#7
Harry Giles:
Height: 6′ 10″
Wingspan: 7′ 3″
Weight: 240 lbs

Marvin Bagley:
Height: 6′ 10.5″
Wingspan: 7′ 0.5″
Weight: 235 lbs

Both will get stronger, and both will get better on both sides of the ball. But it remains to be seen which one will be more effective at center, and, when playing together, which one will be virtually ungardable in the low post (without doubling) and which one will be better at speading the floor with outside shooting. If they both develop equally on all fronts, that can't be a bad thing - except for those of us who insist on giving players a single position title.
 
#8
Harry Giles:
Height: 6′ 10″
Wingspan: 7′ 3″
Weight: 240 lbs

Marvin Bagley:
Height: 6′ 10.5″
Wingspan: 7′ 0.5″
Weight: 235 lbs

Both will get stronger, and both will get better on both sides of the ball. But it remains to be seen which one will be more effective at center, and, when playing together, which one will be virtually ungardable in the low post (without doubling) and which one will be better at speading the floor with outside shooting. If they both develop equally on all fronts, that can't be a bad thing - except for those of us who insist on giving players a single position title.
From the old eyeball test, Bagley looks much bigger than Giles IMHO.

They are both more natural 4s than 5s, so someone will need to move over to the 5, if they both prove to be starters. My guess would be that Giles would be the one that moves over to Center, because he seems to be the more physical of the 2 on defense.

The most important thing for both Giles and Bagley, besides getting stronger, is that one or both of them needs to develop a reliable (36-40%) 3 point shot. If that happens, they will be nearly unguardable for most 4s or 5s in the league.

Eventually, I think both Giles and Bagley will both swing between the 4 and 5.
 
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#9
Ok both I know are rookies and yes I was pretty impressed. Another year together and hopefully they both put some muscle on. We still need a good center to match up with some of the monsters some teams have.

I can see vlade bringing in a center with the idea of making Giles the back up center for at least this next season.
 
#12
Yeah i have to agree. Giles should add size and weight, his game will benefit from it and he is a more natural fit at C for me.

Its the modern NBA and both Giles and Bagley have skills that transfer to each position. I am not one for funneling players into positions but specialization and a concerted focus on what you need to do and how you fit into a system is warranted, based on that premise:

- Bagley needs to add range to play the 4 effectively for us - the ability of our forwards to hit the 3 is a core foundational piece of our system, as important as pace

- Giles needs to bulk up to play the 5, getting to the point where he isn't physically abused will enable him to fully utilize his skills which he has showcased well to date

Both strong developmental points linked to their positions and fit with our franchise
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#13
There's no way Giles is a center on the defensive end. Doesn't have the build for it, no matter how much he strengthens his body. He just can't go against the physical centers in this league. Giles has got to be a 4.
 
#14
As a starter, the Kings would need Giles to be able to play the 5 in order to free up Bagley to slide between 2 or 3 positions during a game. When I think of Bagley and the positions he can play, it's never about the physical abilities. It's just time and experience learning how to play defense. When I think of Giles, it is usually the physical aspects I worry about. That being said, Giles is an ideal backup or small ball 4/5 big man. But he isn't a starting 5 in the league.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#15
Look at the majority of the teams you have to get through to mean anything. You better hope he's a center. The PF position is dead unless you are an elite athlete and can shoot. The truth is unless they start reverting back to old school physicality rules wise both Bagley and Giles are going to have to play plenty of center in their career.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#17
Yeah i have to agree. Giles should add size and weight, his game will benefit from it and he is a more natural fit at C for me.

Its the modern NBA and both Giles and Bagley have skills that transfer to each position. I am not one for funneling players into positions but specialization and a concerted focus on what you need to do and how you fit into a system is warranted, based on that premise:

- Bagley needs to add range to play the 4 effectively for us - the ability of our forwards to hit the 3 is a core foundational piece of our system, as important as pace

- Giles needs to bulk up to play the 5, getting to the point where he isn't physically abused will enable him to fully utilize his skills which he has showcased well to date

Both strong developmental points linked to their positions and fit with our franchise
After the all-star break, Marvin was shooting 39% from three on two attempts per game. He's already got the range, I'd just argue that Joerger's system discouraged him (or any other of our bigs for that matter) from doing it.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#18
There's no way Giles is a center on the defensive end. Doesn't have the build for it, no matter how much he strengthens his body. He just can't go against the physical centers in this league. Giles has got to be a 4.
The thing is that there aren't that many physical centers in the league and the ones that are left are either getting older or have injury concerns or are getting so exploited in mismatches that they aren't getting playing time anyways.

Embiid (physical monster with arthritic knees and a body that just seemingly wasn't meant for an 82 game season)
Boogie (sufferer of two freak absolutely devastating injuries in a row)
Nurk (sufferer of one of the most gruesome injuries ever seen in pro sports. As we've seen with Gordon Hayward, there is a good chance he doesn't come back the same)
Adams (really good role playing dirty work big. Got blasted in the playoffs. Offensively cannot really be more than a 4th or 5th option)
Drummond (rebounds and patrols the paint but is increasingly getting lapped by faster more agile dudes. Horrible shooter.)
are pretty much the last of the physical centers and 3/5 of them have serious medical concerns that could see them out of the league in a few years. I agree that Harry would have trouble guarding Embiid or Boogie but who in the league wouldn't?
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#19
The thing is that there aren't that many physical centers in the league and the ones that are left are either getting older or have injury concerns or are getting so exploited in mismatches that they aren't getting playing time anyways.

Embiid (physical monster with arthritic knees and a body that just seemingly wasn't meant for an 82 game season)
Boogie (sufferer of two freak absolutely devastating injuries in a row)
Nurk (sufferer of one of the most gruesome injuries ever seen in pro sports. As we've seen with Gordon Hayward, there is a good chance he doesn't come back the same)
Adams (really good role playing dirty work big. Got blasted in the playoffs. Offensively cannot really be more than a 4th or 5th option)
Drummond (rebounds and patrols the paint but is increasingly getting lapped by faster more agile dudes. Horrible shooter.)
are pretty much the last of the physical centers and 3/5 of them have serious medical concerns that could see them out of the league in a few years. I agree that Harry would have trouble guarding Embiid or Boogie but who in the league wouldn't?
I wouldn't put him up against guys like Horford or Baines or Ayton or Harrell or M. Gasol or Aldridge or the Joker, or the guys you named, to name just a few. He's built more like a slim pf or even a sf, not a center. I thought he got outphysicalled at the position in several games he played, and for the most part he didn't play against starters. Giles is still finding himself as a player. He needs to expand his shooting range, get better at FT percentage, driving to the basket, making passes off the dribble, and continue to improve as a defender and rebounder. I'm hoping he makes the jump next season to a quality starter, and I don't think that's at the center position.
 
#20
After the all-star break, Marvin was shooting 39% from three on two attempts per game. He's already got the range, I'd just argue that Joerger's system discouraged him (or any other of our bigs for that matter) from doing it.
I think he can hit at the same rate from 40 plus feet and id like to see him develop that ;)

I agree though, just want him to continue to work on it to solidify its consistency
 
#21
Backup C, sure.

Starting C, he'd need several years, it's completely unrealistic to thing he'd be able to start soon. We've seen aboslutely nothing to indicate he wouldnt pick up TONS of fouls, if you're being objective..

doesn't he get a foul every 10 mins or so? part of that is due to his strength limitations.

Vs the titan c's on the league like Whiteside, and Gobert, both Harry and Marvin are small-fry's... It's important we get a 3rd C this offseason who's a bruiser.

Harry is a tweener, he's not a pure C tho thats for sure.


what the kings do is sacrifice strength for speed, so Harry is in line with that, but still in the league there lurks absolute nightmare matchups. Giles at C is real vs some matchups and others render it to a gimmick type of thing... We can't beat Denver with Harry guarding Jokic he will MAUL him... Nurkic will MAUL him.. Steven Adams... Rudy Gobert... Karl Towns... do you get the picture???
 
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#22
The thign that kinda stinks is Zach Collins who we traded for Harry is most certainly a C, and he (and rodney hood) saved Portland in that game 6 last night...

I'm a huge believer in Harry tho, where we got him in the draft was terrific value.
 
#23
I would love to know who was the big guy in lastyears draft Vlade was hoping fell to them in the 2nd rd, then when he was picked that triggered the trade/sale to Portland..... I'd bet it was in fact Mitchell Robinson... Vlade has demonstrated a high degree of competency, and i think thats the most likely name. (*I'm very good at Guess Who?, i beat my neices in like 3 turns everytime). He coulda been hoping for Robert Williams who the Celtics scooped up at the very end of the 1st..... Both of these players fit a shotblocking archetype that seems to be a match here with the 3rd C spot on depth chart.


For you draft watchers out there if the above is true, they had eyes on Robinson or Williams --- a name to watch this years draft is Arkansas Daniel Gafford, who's 6"11 long armed and super athletic, has some touch around the rim too. Projected around our range or just a wee bit ahead, and there's been these types of players falling down boards for many years now, so it's not too unrealisitc..

If you believe Harry is a C, you might think a player like this is redundant, but I think he could be potentially a nice compliment. Harry would play the 4 next to Gafford.. We have our skilled bigs already in place, it's time for some brute force, Gafford is a runner like Willie and he's not gonna back down. could be nice long-term investment.


He runs like the wind too. definitely a match for the high pace.
 
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#24
I've been watching the Trailblazers/Nuggets and started thinking about the trade the Kings made in 2017 Collins for Jackson/Giles. Collins has looked impressive defensively for the Blazers however his offense is less so. That seems to be the reverse of Giles. I wonder which one will have the better career. Giles offensive potential may be better, but who knows if it will materialize completely.
 
#25
"Several years" before Giles is ready to start at center? Nah, I don't think so. He's not ready to start today, I agree. But he's not "several years" away, either, unless he just doesn't progress in his sophmore season. I happen to think he's got everything he needs to progress rapidly this year, and I don't think it's "completely unrealistic" that he'll be starting next to Bags by the end of the season. Maybe even by the All Star break. But when he starts will also have to do with what Center is on our roster next season. If it's Dedmon, I could see Harry playing his whole sophmore season in a backup role. If it's Vucevic, maybe Harry spends the next two seasons coming off the bench. On the other hand, if its postseason Vucevic, maybe Harry becomes the starter when/if we get into the postseason. :p
 
#27
I think Giles and Bagley will be handle the 5 against a lot of teams. For some teams were are still going to need a big man that can play defense and rebound.
Yes I agree, it is about Match ups. it is all about who can you defend out on the floor? Watch GSW and see how the 4 and 5 spot is a liquid situation depending on who they match up with (plus injuries). Giles needs to get stronger and watch how Draymond Green defends the Centers. A team is never going to assemble another "Hampton Five" but there is no denying that lineup works. You just need 3 of the best shooters ever and 3 great defenders:) But some of the time you need a Big 5 to take and dish out the pounding we saw the Clippers and other teams bring at the Kings.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#29
Seems everyone (even in national media) thinks this kid is pretty good. So yes, probably. Assume it is not going to be this year, and I am happy with WCS starting. Love me some WCS.

Had anyone thought about getting a guy like Noel? He would almost immediately fix our rebounding woes.
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You might want to check the Personnel Moves forum. There's a lengthy discussion of PF/C potential acquisitions going on. ;)
 
#30
I think Giles will wind up being a lot better than Collins. Zach had some pretty impressive games in the playoffs but Giles is much better than Collins was during their rookie seasons. If he can get the fouling under control, he's going to be a really good defensive player. In the end Zach will probably be better at shot blocking and 3pt shooting but I think Giles will be better at every thing else.