Better franchise cornerstone: Fox, or Doncic? (Split from Doncic - performance thread)
- Thread starter rainmaker
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I don't care much for the Luka vs Bagley discussion. Luka is easily a tier above.
However the general premise around here has been that Bagley would fit better next to Fox than Luka. That suggests Fox is the cornerstone and either Bagley or Luka would need to fit around him.
So a fair question is, is Luka better than Fox and does he project to be better than Fox. One can make the argument he is and he will be.
If that were to be true, which it very well might be, then the Kings passed on a superior franchise cornerstone. And that's an entirely different scenario as their pick suggests they only considered Luka/Bagley in the light of support pieces around Fox.
However the general premise around here has been that Bagley would fit better next to Fox than Luka. That suggests Fox is the cornerstone and either Bagley or Luka would need to fit around him.
So a fair question is, is Luka better than Fox and does he project to be better than Fox. One can make the argument he is and he will be.
If that were to be true, which it very well might be, then the Kings passed on a superior franchise cornerstone. And that's an entirely different scenario as their pick suggests they only considered Luka/Bagley in the light of support pieces around Fox.
It's a question; I don't know that it's a fair question.
I mean, if we've spent so much time criticizing Divac for drafting Bagley over Doncic, that we've graduated to criticizing him for drafting Fox over Doncic, the year before... why stop there? Why not criticize him for drafting Papagiannis (via Marquese Chriss) over Doncic, in 2016? Hell, while we're at it, we might as well criticize him for drafting Cauley-Stein over Doncic, in 2015, too.
I mean, if we've spent so much time criticizing Divac for drafting Bagley over Doncic, that we've graduated to criticizing him for drafting Fox over Doncic, the year before... why stop there? Why not criticize him for drafting Papagiannis (via Marquese Chriss) over Doncic, in 2016? Hell, while we're at it, we might as well criticize him for drafting Cauley-Stein over Doncic, in 2015, too.
I honestly think it’s close. Luka looks more polished, Fox has the potential to be elite both ways. I’ve watched an obscene amount of playoff basketball over the past handful of years and it really sticks out to me how important it is that you can play D. Curry was, and to a lesser degree still is, attacked consistently in the playoffs. Enough so that it reduces his effectiveness and creates a gap between him and the KDs and Lebrons of the world.
If Luka is as bad as some have made him out to be defensively, that may play a part in their overall effectiveness.
All that being said.. it seems Luka is the safer choice at this point.
If Luka is as bad as some have made him out to be defensively, that may play a part in their overall effectiveness.
All that being said.. it seems Luka is the safer choice at this point.
The thing is, we didn't have to choose between them. The worst that might have happened is that Fox might have been slightly less effective, but I'm not even sure that is the case. We would have Doncic as our No. 1 and Fox as our No. 2, which I can more easily see as the core of a future contender than Fox as No. 1 and Bagley as No. 2.
I'm offering the scenario that the Kings' pick was based on fit around Fox. What if the player they thought would fit around Fox is or will be better than Fox?
In that scenario the Kings would have passed on a player better than any player on their roster because they viewed him as a 2nd option and support player.
That has nothing to do with drafting Fox over Luka. It suggests a situation where Luka would have been 1A and Fox 1B.
Given I rate Fox quite highly I think that pairing would have incredible upside.
But all this goes back to the bigger picture issue that if you have a Luka type talent on the table and you're picking at #2, it's dangerous picking for fit over BPA. The Kings very well might have chosen fit over a player better than any on their roster.
In that scenario the Kings would have passed on a player better than any player on their roster because they viewed him as a 2nd option and support player.
That has nothing to do with drafting Fox over Luka. It suggests a situation where Luka would have been 1A and Fox 1B.
Given I rate Fox quite highly I think that pairing would have incredible upside.
But all this goes back to the bigger picture issue that if you have a Luka type talent on the table and you're picking at #2, it's dangerous picking for fit over BPA. The Kings very well might have chosen fit over a player better than any on their roster.
At the time of the draft I didn't think Fox showed me enough in his rookie year for the Kings to crown him as our franchise player and start building around him. I didn't believe that we should consider the fit with Fox at all. I thought Fox showed potential to be our franchise PG, but not franchise player. However, the Kings obviously view him differently than I did.
We screwed up by considering roster fit. I still hold my stance that we should've drafted Doncic no matter what.
Fast forward mid-way through his 2nd year and I still don't see enough from Fox for me to be convinced that he's our franchise player.
Everyone in the NBA knows that Doncic is already a franchise player 50 games into his rookie year..big difference between the two.
In regarding to franchise cornerstone, I think the only people who would pick Fox over Doncic are completely bias Kings fans.
We screwed up by considering roster fit. I still hold my stance that we should've drafted Doncic no matter what.
Fast forward mid-way through his 2nd year and I still don't see enough from Fox for me to be convinced that he's our franchise player.
Everyone in the NBA knows that Doncic is already a franchise player 50 games into his rookie year..big difference between the two.
In regarding to franchise cornerstone, I think the only people who would pick Fox over Doncic are completely bias Kings fans.
It depends on which Fox you are talking about. The Fox from a couple months ago is right up there with Doncic and probably better because of the defense.
De'Aaron Fox from the last month or so isn't even in Doncic's league.
People talked about Doncic hitting a wall yet he actually seems to be picking up steam of late. Fox on the other hand seems to be the guy hitting the wall. The big question is....... who is the real De'Aaron Fox?
As far as Bagley vs. Doncic that shouldn't even be a question anymore. Bagley will be a nice #2 type player and can do a lot of things to help you win, but franchise #1 he is not. Luka is a franchise #1 and anybody still arguing that he isn't is delusional. 19 year olds don't get 30/8/8 and then follow it up the next game with 35/12/10 and unless they are a truly special talent.
De'Aaron Fox from the last month or so isn't even in Doncic's league.
People talked about Doncic hitting a wall yet he actually seems to be picking up steam of late. Fox on the other hand seems to be the guy hitting the wall. The big question is....... who is the real De'Aaron Fox?
As far as Bagley vs. Doncic that shouldn't even be a question anymore. Bagley will be a nice #2 type player and can do a lot of things to help you win, but franchise #1 he is not. Luka is a franchise #1 and anybody still arguing that he isn't is delusional. 19 year olds don't get 30/8/8 and then follow it up the next game with 35/12/10 and unless they are a truly special talent.
I thought we should have picked Doncic and traded Fox. But Fox is a lot better this year and probably wouldn't have shined had we picked Luka. That trade, no matter when it was done, would lose us talent.
Its like Hrdboild said in the other thread. 3 point shooting is all that matters. Fox cant as of now. If he can, then keeping him was the right choice.
Its like Hrdboild said in the other thread. 3 point shooting is all that matters. Fox cant as of now. If he can, then keeping him was the right choice.
Where does this "fit" thing come from?
You don't think Fox is good enough to fit next to a player like Luka?
You think Lebron/Kyrie, Westbrook/Durant, Harden/CP3, Steph/Klay/Durant, Lebron/Wade, Run TMC, etc, etc, wing combos don't work?
It amazes me how folks here don't think a Luka/Fox duo would have been badass.
It's as if Kings fans don't think Fox is that good while also suggesting he's so good the team shouldn't have drafted Luka.
You don't think Fox is good enough to fit next to a player like Luka?
You think Lebron/Kyrie, Westbrook/Durant, Harden/CP3, Steph/Klay/Durant, Lebron/Wade, Run TMC, etc, etc, wing combos don't work?
It amazes me how folks here don't think a Luka/Fox duo would have been badass.
It's as if Kings fans don't think Fox is that good while also suggesting he's so good the team shouldn't have drafted Luka.
Luka does everything for the Mavs like Lebron and D-Wade did for their teams for years. Pass, rebound, and score. Rinse and repeat. Luka is a great player and was my number one choice, followed by Bagley, so I am not as sour as some of the Luka fanboys around here. The main reason we didn't pick Luka is because of Divac. He wanted to build a team that relied on each other, not on a single player. Teams with a single player are much easier to game plan against, just focus on their key guy. A team with a bunch of key guys is tougher to stop.
Fox vs Luka. An interesting question to say the least, but not quite fair. One is asked to do everything (and his offensive stats show it) while one is asked to be a floor general. If Fox had the ball as much as Luka does, his stats would look better than what they are now, but someone is clearly telling Fox to focus on the team. Fox gives up lanes he could drive into on the regular so it must be the team's game plan to focus on passing the ball and getting the easy shot. Whether that's the right decision is another matter...
Offensively, Luka is already a savant. He can shoot, pass and read the defense well, and he's a natural born leader that other players gravitate towards. He is, though, a liability on the defensive end and likely will never be a "plus" defender. However, the kid is simply incredible and is having a hell of a season already. Offensively, there is nothing he cannot do.
Fox is also a natural born leader with defensive instincts that just scream "one of the future best PG defenders in the league," if not the best. He can harass the **** out of other players and I love it. He's made incredible strides shooting the ball and is very good at running the offense. He's tenacious and very clearly hates to lose. I wish Joerger would give him more free reign.
I absolutely think Fox is a franchise talent, but he's not getting the same calls Luka is when it comes to the refs. Fox gets killed out there and more than half the time no calls. Luka has been getting the Harden treatment for a while now. Regardless, both are special in my eyes. Just in different ways. One is an offensive savant and the other is an elite 2 way player.
*** I tried really hard not to bring up how much it ****** me off that Joerger "rests" Fox so much in the 4th quarters. That continues to irk me to no end. WHY? Let the damn Fox loose you stubborn fool. He's 20, he could run back to Sacramento from LA if he wanted to. Joerger also has to get more creative with his sets and let Fox create some havoc. If I were Joerger, I would tell Fox every single time you see even an inch of space, you drive. There are moments in the game that Fox just has his defender to beat with no one even close to help on defense, and yet he passes the ball. DRIVE TO THE HOOP!!! /rant
Fox vs Luka. An interesting question to say the least, but not quite fair. One is asked to do everything (and his offensive stats show it) while one is asked to be a floor general. If Fox had the ball as much as Luka does, his stats would look better than what they are now, but someone is clearly telling Fox to focus on the team. Fox gives up lanes he could drive into on the regular so it must be the team's game plan to focus on passing the ball and getting the easy shot. Whether that's the right decision is another matter...
Offensively, Luka is already a savant. He can shoot, pass and read the defense well, and he's a natural born leader that other players gravitate towards. He is, though, a liability on the defensive end and likely will never be a "plus" defender. However, the kid is simply incredible and is having a hell of a season already. Offensively, there is nothing he cannot do.
Fox is also a natural born leader with defensive instincts that just scream "one of the future best PG defenders in the league," if not the best. He can harass the **** out of other players and I love it. He's made incredible strides shooting the ball and is very good at running the offense. He's tenacious and very clearly hates to lose. I wish Joerger would give him more free reign.
I absolutely think Fox is a franchise talent, but he's not getting the same calls Luka is when it comes to the refs. Fox gets killed out there and more than half the time no calls. Luka has been getting the Harden treatment for a while now. Regardless, both are special in my eyes. Just in different ways. One is an offensive savant and the other is an elite 2 way player.
*** I tried really hard not to bring up how much it ****** me off that Joerger "rests" Fox so much in the 4th quarters. That continues to irk me to no end. WHY? Let the damn Fox loose you stubborn fool. He's 20, he could run back to Sacramento from LA if he wanted to. Joerger also has to get more creative with his sets and let Fox create some havoc. If I were Joerger, I would tell Fox every single time you see even an inch of space, you drive. There are moments in the game that Fox just has his defender to beat with no one even close to help on defense, and yet he passes the ball. DRIVE TO THE HOOP!!! /rant
Fox is our guy, we go as he goes. Going into the draft, I thought we'd be stupid to not pick Luka. His nickname was Wonder Boy for chrissakes. Then I understood the commitment to our players, (bogi, hield, Fox) and that Luka would've absolutely taken the attention (on AND off court) from these guys. We needed culture, and committing to a group of talented young guys who wanted to be here was crucial. We need players to trust us as a franchise just as much as we need good players right now, drafting Luka would've burnt bridges. Fox needed the opportunity to show what he could be, and he's shown a lot this season. Guy has some unbelievable potential and can take over the game in such an exciting way its so easy to root for. I saw a thread posted on Reddits NBA page few days ago that asked this same question (Fox v Luka), and Fox won in the majority of comments pretty clearly.... Tonight's line from Luka has definitely swayed some of the national sentiment on the issue....
I personally think they will both be extremely high level talents and would be more than excited if this renews a SAC/DAL/LAL battle atop the conference. I would still take Fox though, as he can drop 3 steals, a chasedown block, a tomahawk, and a buzzer beater in the 4th.
Luka v Marvin however.....oof...
I personally think they will both be extremely high level talents and would be more than excited if this renews a SAC/DAL/LAL battle atop the conference. I would still take Fox though, as he can drop 3 steals, a chasedown block, a tomahawk, and a buzzer beater in the 4th.
Luka v Marvin however.....oof...
You can’t compare Harden and Luka. One is a vet and the other a rookie and same goes for the guys at OKC. Luka is 23rd on that list so it’s not like hes far from the top 20, as a rookie no less. There’s a decent chance his usage continues to climb. He even leads guys like KAT in usage percentage.
This is all fine and dandy, but the whole point of my post is that Divac simply doesn’t want a team like that. If we drafted Doncic, we might be talking about Fox getting in the way of Doncic’s development or vice versa. Smith, Dallas’s golden rookie from last year, is already having problems with this very issue. The grass isn’t always greener.
We also had a fabulous rookie in Tyreke once. We were all convinced that he was going to be the next star but it never did click for him. A career isn’t made in one season. Teams will adjust to Doncic, I’m curious how he will adjust.
Edit: for comparisons sake I went to the 2003-2004 season. Lebron James’s usage his rookie year was 27.6 which is right in line with Doncic this year.
This is all fine and dandy, but the whole point of my post is that Divac simply doesn’t want a team like that. If we drafted Doncic, we might be talking about Fox getting in the way of Doncic’s development or vice versa. Smith, Dallas’s golden rookie from last year, is already having problems with this very issue. The grass isn’t always greener.
We also had a fabulous rookie in Tyreke once. We were all convinced that he was going to be the next star but it never did click for him. A career isn’t made in one season. Teams will adjust to Doncic, I’m curious how he will adjust.
Edit: for comparisons sake I went to the 2003-2004 season. Lebron James’s usage his rookie year was 27.6 which is right in line with Doncic this year.
The point is he’s not being force fed the ball he’s getting all star numbers with a good usage. A usage he’d have if he played here with fox.
To answer the question I’d take Luka over Fox 6’9 do it all wings are a rare bunch. And his defense is widely overstated on here.
And for the love of god if I see Tyrekes name mentioned with Luka again, damn
To answer the question I’d take Luka over Fox 6’9 do it all wings are a rare bunch. And his defense is widely overstated on here.
And for the love of god if I see Tyrekes name mentioned with Luka again, damn
Fox...the Luka stans just never quit. The Mavs will spend most of Luka’s prime hovering around the 5 seed, with a strapped cap as they overpay at 1,3, and 5 to compensate for Luka’s deficiencies. He’s a point 4 who cannot, and will never, play any defense. He’ll be very exciting, maybe win some more trophies for his national team since the rest of Europe sans Serbia seems to be in a talent trough, and not get past the second round until after his second contract, maybe.
We’re going to have a clean cap, barring injury, and a roster that fits together. I’m happy with our choices and with the young men that represent our city.
We’re going to have a clean cap, barring injury, and a roster that fits together. I’m happy with our choices and with the young men that represent our city.