Yep, and you wanted Cousins gone too, early in his career. I don't disagree that Vlade and Joerger are giving Willie every opportunity to succeed, and that this is a make or break year for Willie. The difference between Vlade's expectations and yours is probably fairly large. I think Vlade would be happy if he knew he could get 15 and 8 out of Willie every night. I'm not sure what you think is a viable number to be the starting center on the Kings?
Joerger
- Thread starter Kingster
- Start date
Not a big fan of coach. Everyone is calling for him to modernize, but that typically requires an athletic small forward that can guard his spot, get buckets, and switch both bigger and smaller from time to time. The Kings don’t have any small forwards, let alone a very good one.
They’ve got a couple of shooting guards, two PF/C with upside that aren’t yet ready to play winning basketball. A point guard that doesn’t know how to lead an NBA offense and shoots inconsistently. And in terms of players that materially impact the ability to win games against decent teams, instead of putting up numbers or helping out some, there isn’t a ton else. It’s an odd and bad roster.
I don’t think they are well coached. I also think this is “We aren’t that bad. It must be the coach!” part 12
They’ve got a couple of shooting guards, two PF/C with upside that aren’t yet ready to play winning basketball. A point guard that doesn’t know how to lead an NBA offense and shoots inconsistently. And in terms of players that materially impact the ability to win games against decent teams, instead of putting up numbers or helping out some, there isn’t a ton else. It’s an odd and bad roster.
I don’t think they are well coached. I also think this is “We aren’t that bad. It must be the coach!” part 12
Really? Maybe you didn't watch the same game I did. Although I wouldn't have blamed you if you had turned it off after the first quarter. Yeah, there were times when Gobert got some uncontested baskets with Willie on the floor. Guess what, Willie got some uncontested baskets with Gobert on the floor as well. Maybe Gobert is running away from Willie? Aside from that, there were several times when Willie contested Gobert right at the basket, and Gobert won those contests. He just has too much length to allow him to get that close to the basket.
By the way, Giles said that Willie was one of the strongest players on the team, and the most difficult to go up against in practice. While I'll give you that Willie isn't Steven Adams, he's by no means weak. He's put on quite a bit of muscle since coming to the Kings.
By the way, Giles said that Willie was one of the strongest players on the team, and the most difficult to go up against in practice. While I'll give you that Willie isn't Steven Adams, he's by no means weak. He's put on quite a bit of muscle since coming to the Kings.
Yeah, and I think Joerger was referring mostly to the match up against the Jazz, who throw Gobert and Favors out there in their front line. Both guys are bigger and stronger than anyone we can throw out there. I think he was also referring to the fact that we don't have a legit SF on the team other than Jackson, and he's not currently impressing anyone. So we have a bunch of 6'5" guys out there trying to guard players that many times are 3 to 4 inches taller. I don't think Joerger was making excuses, he was just stating the obvious.
Stuff like that goes out the window when things are this broken, most people are calling for a system overhaul. That has nothing to do with who you have at any position unless nobody on your team can shoot. First, stop clogging the middle. Second, create more driving lanes for your guards. Third, start your offense with pick and roll not pointless side to side passing and long circular routes off the ball in a horn set. They'll still lose most likley no matter what they run, they're a young team, but geez, they might not all look like garbage for once.
I'm not a big Ben Howland fan. Most of his teams at UCLA underachieved, and worse still, most of his highly recruited players underachieved. The amount of players that came out of UCLA with the rep as underachievers that went on to be very good NBA players is mind boggling. I reached a point where I could't stand to watch his teams play. He was a very good recruiter though. Reminds me of Sean Miller who recruits top players and then goes out in the first round of the tournament year after year.
i like joerger and I think he is a good coach. I think if given some talented veterans around him he could easily take a team on a deep playoff run. I’ve sat in on practices and sat close enough to the Kings bench that I’ve heard him bark orders and draw up plays. He’s definitely got a high b-ball iq.
That being said it just seems to become more and more apparent that he may not be the right guy to coach through a rebuild. His offense schemes don’t seem at all designed around his players strengths (why fox isn’t running a pick and roll every play is mind boggling) and his defensive schemes seem to be designed with the thought that all of his players are phenomenal veteran one on one defenders. Instead of young players with growing pains on that end. There is little help defense, poor paint protection, and bad close outs. I know a lot of that is on the team, but I have to think there are other coaches out there that would recognize these problems and try and change things around to better suit his players, rather than just keep putting them in the same situations and hope that they get it.
We have the talent and the foundation, but right now it just doesn’t look like anything is building on it.
That being said it just seems to become more and more apparent that he may not be the right guy to coach through a rebuild. His offense schemes don’t seem at all designed around his players strengths (why fox isn’t running a pick and roll every play is mind boggling) and his defensive schemes seem to be designed with the thought that all of his players are phenomenal veteran one on one defenders. Instead of young players with growing pains on that end. There is little help defense, poor paint protection, and bad close outs. I know a lot of that is on the team, but I have to think there are other coaches out there that would recognize these problems and try and change things around to better suit his players, rather than just keep putting them in the same situations and hope that they get it.
We have the talent and the foundation, but right now it just doesn’t look like anything is building on it.
Maybe not. I watched the Utah game. Saw WCS run away from Gobert - TWICE! Another poster confirmed the same thing.
And wasn't it Durant that said he really likes Stein? Too bad he isn't the Warriors GM. Maybe the Kings could make a WCS for Jordan Bell trade. Wouldn't that be wunderbar. For the Kings. There's nothing more stupid to me than equating good players with good talent evaluators. It's ridiculous. If that were the case M. Jordan wouldn't be wallowing in the mire for years with the Hornets.
If any GM would watch Stein over many games over the last two seasons he would see the same theme - he runs away from legit centers, just like a deer, and then he puts up very good stats against bench guys. Which proves what? That he is in fact a sub! He's proven it - repeatedly! That's who he is. That's how he was made. That's his nature.
The Kings need to fully acknowledge the truth of the matter. WCS is not a starting center in this league. He is a sub. Make a nice 8th or 9th seat on the bench for him. I actually think that he'd be happier there in the longer run. He could be what he is, instead of pretending to be what people want him to be and say a lot of transparent pretend words over the off-season that make him look ridiculous. Moreover, the Kings should acknowledge that they aren't fooling one single GM in the league into believing that WCS is a starting center by, ugh, starting him. Everybody knows what he is. Stop the make-believe pretend show and get on with reality. The truth will set you free!
With a little poetic license of Sinnerman:
Oh, Willie, where you gonna run to?
Willie where you gonna run to?
Where you gonna run to?
All on that day
We got to run to the rock
Please hide me, I run to the rock
Please hide me, run to the rock
Please hide here
All on that day
But the rock cried out
I can't hide you, the rock cried out
I can't hide you, the rock cried out
I ain't gonna hide you there
All on that day
I said rock
What's the matter with you rock?
Don't you see I need you, rock?
Good Lord, Lord
All on that day
So I run to the river
It was bleedin', I run to the sea
It was bleedin', I run to the sea
It was bleedin', all on that day
So I run to the river
It was boilin', I run to the sea
It was boilin', I run to the sea
It was boilin', all on that day
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinnerman+lyrics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
And wasn't it Durant that said he really likes Stein? Too bad he isn't the Warriors GM. Maybe the Kings could make a WCS for Jordan Bell trade. Wouldn't that be wunderbar. For the Kings. There's nothing more stupid to me than equating good players with good talent evaluators. It's ridiculous. If that were the case M. Jordan wouldn't be wallowing in the mire for years with the Hornets.
If any GM would watch Stein over many games over the last two seasons he would see the same theme - he runs away from legit centers, just like a deer, and then he puts up very good stats against bench guys. Which proves what? That he is in fact a sub! He's proven it - repeatedly! That's who he is. That's how he was made. That's his nature.
The Kings need to fully acknowledge the truth of the matter. WCS is not a starting center in this league. He is a sub. Make a nice 8th or 9th seat on the bench for him. I actually think that he'd be happier there in the longer run. He could be what he is, instead of pretending to be what people want him to be and say a lot of transparent pretend words over the off-season that make him look ridiculous. Moreover, the Kings should acknowledge that they aren't fooling one single GM in the league into believing that WCS is a starting center by, ugh, starting him. Everybody knows what he is. Stop the make-believe pretend show and get on with reality. The truth will set you free!
With a little poetic license of Sinnerman:
Oh, Willie, where you gonna run to?
Willie where you gonna run to?
Where you gonna run to?
All on that day
We got to run to the rock
Please hide me, I run to the rock
Please hide me, run to the rock
Please hide here
All on that day
But the rock cried out
I can't hide you, the rock cried out
I can't hide you, the rock cried out
I ain't gonna hide you there
All on that day
I said rock
What's the matter with you rock?
Don't you see I need you, rock?
Good Lord, Lord
All on that day
So I run to the river
It was bleedin', I run to the sea
It was bleedin', I run to the sea
It was bleedin', all on that day
So I run to the river
It was boilin', I run to the sea
It was boilin', I run to the sea
It was boilin', all on that day
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinnerman+lyrics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
They're going to be bad, I don't think there's any arguing that. It's just seeing them not be able to reach the full extent of their "badness" that is the problem. The Utah game would have been a blow out because they were missing easy shot after easy shot but it should have been a more normal 25 point blowout and not an eye opening 40 point blowout.
All people are asking of Joerger is to put them in position to do what they do best. If Willie can't defend, Buddy can't hit 3s, Fox can't drive and kick and Marvin can't rebound and get easy buckets then that's on the players. But if we're sitting here watching Willie pass all game, Buddy take very little 3s, Fox just prance around the perimeter without the ball in his hands and Marvin in ISO situations 13ft from the basket, then there is a problem with the coaches scheme. These guys don't want to shoot inefficient 17ft shots all game. They want to dunk the ball and splash in 3s but they can't do that in a scheme that has them coming off of picks that are 17ft away from the basket instead of at the 3 point line like the Warriors and Houston do.
All people are asking of Joerger is to put them in position to do what they do best. If Willie can't defend, Buddy can't hit 3s, Fox can't drive and kick and Marvin can't rebound and get easy buckets then that's on the players. But if we're sitting here watching Willie pass all game, Buddy take very little 3s, Fox just prance around the perimeter without the ball in his hands and Marvin in ISO situations 13ft from the basket, then there is a problem with the coaches scheme. These guys don't want to shoot inefficient 17ft shots all game. They want to dunk the ball and splash in 3s but they can't do that in a scheme that has them coming off of picks that are 17ft away from the basket instead of at the 3 point line like the Warriors and Houston do.
Watch an all-star game 30 years ago. The NBA was full of slim fast players. There has been a history of a few big strong guys able to dominate the game. Now everyone is big and strong. A lot of wing players are powerful , even some 2 guards.
I disagree with your arguement. Players today need a lot of lower body and core strength to bang down low. They need hand and lower arm strength to grab rebounds. Adding 15-20 pounds is not going to slow down big men. Some of the most dominant big men in history like Wilt and Shaq were over 300 pounds.
I disagree with your arguement. Players today need a lot of lower body and core strength to bang down low. They need hand and lower arm strength to grab rebounds. Adding 15-20 pounds is not going to slow down big men. Some of the most dominant big men in history like Wilt and Shaq were over 300 pounds.
I've heard Joerger say something like he's only implemented 17% of the plays in the playbook or something like that. I just don't buy it. Even Carmichael Dave was on the radio saying that the players are just young and dumb but I don't buy that either. There are a lot of well spoken, smart players on this team and I simply cannot buy into the idea that they're all just a bunch of dummies that can't understand basketball plays outside of high post sets and midrange Js.
Giles has shown better passing chops at a younger age than any big we've ever had (since we acquired Webber/Vlade later in their careers). My issue with it is you need to be elite elite elite at it as a big man. For instance in preaseason, Giles has a 1.6 to 1 ast/to ratio. Fox has a 2.6 to 1 ast/to ratio. Everyone is talking about how good a passer Giles is and there have been a lot of gripes about how Fox isn't a good facilitator. But when you look at their ratios, Fox is still much better than Giles at this point.
Now obviously Giles has a ton of room to improve and so does Fox. That's not my point here. My point is basically in the future if you have guards that are just average at passing, yet they're still better passers than even your best passing big man, it's not smart to take the ball out of their hands to put the offense in a less efficient set by having your big guy try and pick the defense apart at the top of the key. Once in a while as a change of pace and it's fine because it puts some pressure on the defense but it's not an efficient way to play basketball if it's a large percentage of your plays because it's basically equivalent to getting JJ 8 three pointers a game when you could just run the exact same plays for Hield and put more points on the board because you're using your personnel to it's greatest efficiency.
Giles has shown better passing chops at a younger age than any big we've ever had (since we acquired Webber/Vlade later in their careers). My issue with it is you need to be elite elite elite at it as a big man. For instance in preaseason, Giles has a 1.6 to 1 ast/to ratio. Fox has a 2.6 to 1 ast/to ratio. Everyone is talking about how good a passer Giles is and there have been a lot of gripes about how Fox isn't a good facilitator. But when you look at their ratios, Fox is still much better than Giles at this point.
Now obviously Giles has a ton of room to improve and so does Fox. That's not my point here. My point is basically in the future if you have guards that are just average at passing, yet they're still better passers than even your best passing big man, it's not smart to take the ball out of their hands to put the offense in a less efficient set by having your big guy try and pick the defense apart at the top of the key. Once in a while as a change of pace and it's fine because it puts some pressure on the defense but it's not an efficient way to play basketball if it's a large percentage of your plays because it's basically equivalent to getting JJ 8 three pointers a game when you could just run the exact same plays for Hield and put more points on the board because you're using your personnel to it's greatest efficiency.
Whats stupid is we have really great personal to do exactly that. We're loaded with shooters, a bunch of a really athletic big men who can jump and a super athletic PG who basically everyone struggles to stay in front of when he gets going towards the rim. We have the personal to be a modern offense, just need to be schemed that way.
I like Joeger. BUT...
If we swaped coaches with Houston, would Joeger force the rockets to run this high post scheme thru capela? And how much better worse would the rockets look?
If we ran a de antoni scheme here, how much better worse would we be? After 2 years wpuld we only be 18% of the way into learning the playbook?
If we swaped coaches with Houston, would Joeger force the rockets to run this high post scheme thru capela? And how much better worse would the rockets look?
If we ran a de antoni scheme here, how much better worse would we be? After 2 years wpuld we only be 18% of the way into learning the playbook?
When we had Cousins, Joegers scheme made sense. After the Cuz trade, it was ok, no time to instal a while new offense.
Then last year we draft Fox and sogn Zbo....becomes clear in ahort amount of time Fox is best suited with ball in his hands running the pick n roll. Same with Bogs. BUT training wheels and all that. Somethjng to learn in the high post scheme for development. AND it helps the tank.
THEN this year comes around and preseason we are running the same scheme. Im moving quickly to the opinion othat it is stubbornness "i want to win MY way" type of thinking. Its funny, almost the exact opposite of the Karl situation.
Then last year we draft Fox and sogn Zbo....becomes clear in ahort amount of time Fox is best suited with ball in his hands running the pick n roll. Same with Bogs. BUT training wheels and all that. Somethjng to learn in the high post scheme for development. AND it helps the tank.
THEN this year comes around and preseason we are running the same scheme. Im moving quickly to the opinion othat it is stubbornness "i want to win MY way" type of thinking. Its funny, almost the exact opposite of the Karl situation.
I wish he was gone early. The Kings would have gotten more in trade, and the rebuild would have happened sooner. Stupid move to draft a head case to a franchise in a state of massive flux. Self-evidently dumb to draft a chaotic player to a chaotic franchise. If you have a franchise in a total rebuild, you build around stable individuals, not unstable one's. Common Sense 101. I'll give Divac credit for not doing that kind of mistake in his drafting.
As for WCS, he'll get good stats against backups, bad stats against starters. He's proven it. He's the quintessential stat producer on a bad team. Kings management should stop deluding themselves into believing he's a starter in this league. The guy can't even shoot consistently from the outside, and with no inside game other than dunks, and no physical presence, and no fighting spirit, what the heck is left?
As for WCS, he'll get good stats against backups, bad stats against starters. He's proven it. He's the quintessential stat producer on a bad team. Kings management should stop deluding themselves into believing he's a starter in this league. The guy can't even shoot consistently from the outside, and with no inside game other than dunks, and no physical presence, and no fighting spirit, what the heck is left?
I think his big money skill is being a drive and dish guard not too dissimilar to Westbrook but he has a solid mid-range shot and there have been decent pick and roll guards that couldn't shoot much. Pick and roll is used for many reasons but primarily to force the defense into an unwanted position which is something the Kings offense isn't doing now. Teams are eating Joegers kids for lunch. Andre Miller is a good example of a player that historically wasn't a great shooter but created plays for himself out of pick and roll in a variety of ways. I think in the end Fox should be a decent to good shooter and how Miller used pick and roll to get into that mid paint area which was his shooting range is perfect for Fox ATM. It's still impossible to figure him out yet because the way the system is being run. He has only one option most of the time with the ball late and that's shoot a long jumper or run into a crowded paint.
The Kings have one of the least energy efficient offenses in all of basketball. I watch Buddy off the ball sometimes, or Justin Jackson and it's pointless. They're working their tails off for nothing. Maybe 1 out of every 10 plays results in a decent look for them. Teams figured the offense out last year. They seemed to start to get away from it last year but again, it's reset button and back to the beginning. I just don't get it. If given the time they will get better at it but it still comes down to it not being the ideal system for the talent at it's very best.
Yes, it's a serious question. But you're skirting the issues. If we play the kids, we're going to sacrifice wins until they grow into their roles. If we play vets like Z-Bo and Koufos, we'll eke out more wins possibly at the expense of the growth of the kids. That's what I mean by saying rebuilding is not for the faint of heart.