[Grades] Grades vs. Lakers (or We Won BUT...)
- Thread starter Capt. Factorial
- Start date
Lakers run an offense I call "Warriors Lite" Great taste, less defense
Kuzma is their kinda sorta Draymond. Better shooting, less defense.
To play that style it helps to have Durant, Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Iquodala, Livingston to switch on the D. Then guys like West and Zaza playing for little $$$.
Kuzma is their kinda sorta Draymond. Better shooting, less defense. To play that style it helps to have Durant, Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Iquodala, Livingston to switch on the D. Then guys like West and Zaza playing for little $$$.
I mean it's almost like all the griping this year hasn't been about wins and losses/lack of immediate results like you and others have been saying. I was personally satisfied with last night for reasons unrelated to winning on its own, but yeah... the occasional win doesn't change anything. Probably makes it worse actually, tanking and all that...
Yeah it's crazy. Last night was a team win and people are #####ing? We were picking up the lakers full court and forcing turnovers and late shot clock situations for them. They had no answer for WCS or zbo who played their behinds off. Fun times if you ask me. Quick side note I don't see the hype behind Ingram he looks pedestrian.
OMG. I cannot believe this.
WE BEAT THE FREAKING LAKERS. At least a couple of the keys to our future had great nights. And what happens? A small group of malcontents can't wait to get on here and dump on Dave Joerger and Z-Bo, who led us to the win.
Suck it up, buttercups. Why not just start one thread where you can vent your spleens without ruining it for everyone else? And yes, I'm already aware of the 3 or 4 posters who will get their panties in a bunch over this post ... and quite frankly I couldn't care less.
This is KINGSFANS. We're fans here. We're gonna celebrate wins and we're sure gonna celebrate wins over the effing Lakers. I think at least a couple of you don't want us to enjoy our small moments of celebration. You're only happy if we're all doom and gloom the whole time. Well, that's not gonna happen.
It was a GREAT game last night...on national TV. Doris Burke is an incredible talent and to hear her talk positively about our team and our future was a breath of fresh air. And NO, she did not "elude" to Dave Joerger giving in (unless that's what you wanted to hear her say).
There are legitimate criticisms (A LOT OF THEM) to be made about the Kings. We're LEARNING. What's not legitimate is the constant and never-ending criticism to the point of blind hatred of Dave Joerger. There were a couple of old-timers who used to criticize Adelman, too (and NO, I'm not comparing Joerger to Adelman - only the circumstance). Ironicially enough, about 2 coaches after Adelman those were the guys who cried the most about him being gone.
There are times to be critical and there are times to just sit back and savor the moment. THIS IS A MOMENT TO SAVOR.
And yes, I'm abusing my mod powers by making this comments - but only because of the messages I've received privately from people who don't even like to post here any more because no matter what they say, someone is going to come back with something negative. That's not what this board has ever been about.
And no, I'm not gonna debate this. In fact, I may end up deleting it at some point in time. But geez, guys... take a breath. You don't always have to be so damned negative. If you're here all the time, that's one thing. I may not agree with what you say, but I will (even holding my nose) defend your right to say it as long as it's not just redundant hater-speak. On the other hand, if you show up once in a while and just spew negativity, maybe you should find somewhere else. It's not fair to the rest of us (Positive and Negative) who have spent the time in the trenches through the blink of an eye that was the good times and the rest of eternity (it sometimes seems) that has been the not so good times.
/Endrant
WE BEAT THE FREAKING LAKERS. At least a couple of the keys to our future had great nights. And what happens? A small group of malcontents can't wait to get on here and dump on Dave Joerger and Z-Bo, who led us to the win.
Suck it up, buttercups. Why not just start one thread where you can vent your spleens without ruining it for everyone else? And yes, I'm already aware of the 3 or 4 posters who will get their panties in a bunch over this post ... and quite frankly I couldn't care less.
This is KINGSFANS. We're fans here. We're gonna celebrate wins and we're sure gonna celebrate wins over the effing Lakers. I think at least a couple of you don't want us to enjoy our small moments of celebration. You're only happy if we're all doom and gloom the whole time. Well, that's not gonna happen.
It was a GREAT game last night...on national TV. Doris Burke is an incredible talent and to hear her talk positively about our team and our future was a breath of fresh air. And NO, she did not "elude" to Dave Joerger giving in (unless that's what you wanted to hear her say).
There are legitimate criticisms (A LOT OF THEM) to be made about the Kings. We're LEARNING. What's not legitimate is the constant and never-ending criticism to the point of blind hatred of Dave Joerger. There were a couple of old-timers who used to criticize Adelman, too (and NO, I'm not comparing Joerger to Adelman - only the circumstance). Ironicially enough, about 2 coaches after Adelman those were the guys who cried the most about him being gone.
There are times to be critical and there are times to just sit back and savor the moment. THIS IS A MOMENT TO SAVOR.
And yes, I'm abusing my mod powers by making this comments - but only because of the messages I've received privately from people who don't even like to post here any more because no matter what they say, someone is going to come back with something negative. That's not what this board has ever been about.
And no, I'm not gonna debate this. In fact, I may end up deleting it at some point in time. But geez, guys... take a breath. You don't always have to be so damned negative. If you're here all the time, that's one thing. I may not agree with what you say, but I will (even holding my nose) defend your right to say it as long as it's not just redundant hater-speak. On the other hand, if you show up once in a while and just spew negativity, maybe you should find somewhere else. It's not fair to the rest of us (Positive and Negative) who have spent the time in the trenches through the blink of an eye that was the good times and the rest of eternity (it sometimes seems) that has been the not so good times.
/Endrant
I’ve been there or watched or Kings. I don’t know what you have been watching. The Kings team has been through a myriad of problems and it seems to have cherry-picked to create your analysis. You can’t make an NBA team with 5th graders. Joerger makes the right moves to build this team which is a work in progress.
Back to the original point of the thread?
Frank Mason - A He continues to impress. Thank you, Vlade, for doing what it took to grab him.
WCS - A This is the Willie Cauley-Stein I've been hoping to see. You can see the light going off in his head. He's starting to play better AND have fun. It's a deadly combination if you're on the opposing team.
Bogdan Bogdanovic - B+ He's starting to settle in. His court vision really impresses me, as does his willingness/desire to find the open man. That's gonna pay dividends.
DeAaron Fox - B+ He may not have lit up the court, but I think he clearly showed he's the real deal. The only point guard better than him last night was Mason.
Z-Bo - A- I don't care if he's old; I don't care if some think he's being favored. He put it all out there last night and without him we wouldn't have beat the freaking Lakers. He's not gonna be around forever, so I hope he can help guide kids like Skal who will be attempting to fill his shoes.
Those are the players I watched the most, so I'm not gonna try and give grades to any of the rest. It was and is a good time to be a Kings fan.
GO KINGS!
Frank Mason - A He continues to impress. Thank you, Vlade, for doing what it took to grab him.
WCS - A This is the Willie Cauley-Stein I've been hoping to see. You can see the light going off in his head. He's starting to play better AND have fun. It's a deadly combination if you're on the opposing team.
Bogdan Bogdanovic - B+ He's starting to settle in. His court vision really impresses me, as does his willingness/desire to find the open man. That's gonna pay dividends.
DeAaron Fox - B+ He may not have lit up the court, but I think he clearly showed he's the real deal. The only point guard better than him last night was Mason.
Z-Bo - A- I don't care if he's old; I don't care if some think he's being favored. He put it all out there last night and without him we wouldn't have beat the freaking Lakers. He's not gonna be around forever, so I hope he can help guide kids like Skal who will be attempting to fill his shoes.
Those are the players I watched the most, so I'm not gonna try and give grades to any of the rest. It was and is a good time to be a Kings fan.
GO KINGS!
Ok I'll lay off being a negative Nancy. It's just most of us care about the future of the prospects more than a win against the Lakers.
ZBo - A - Just dominated Brook Lopez like a red headed step child.
Mason - A - Offense ran much smoother with him out there. Routinely found guys for open shots and is a deadly outside shooter himself. Needs to shoot more IMO.
WCS - A - Did exactly what we've been wanting him to do since the moment he stepped in the league. Worked in the paint and played solid interior defense.
Bogie - A - Found WCS on what, 5 lobs? Shot was on all night and played solid defense on a handful of occasions.
Hield - B+ - His shot is falling and his effort has not gone unnoticed by fans.
Koufos - B - Should maybe be an Inc since he didn't get a ton of minutes but he put up big numbers in the 8 minutes he did play.
Temple - B- - Pesky on defense, shot is still a bit off but he hit some big shots during the game.
Carter - C+ - Played about as well as the old man can these days.
Fox - C - Had some good and some bad moments. Would like to see him in the paint more, for better or worse. 2-2 from 3 is encouraging.
Skal - C- - Grade would be worse but he battled on the boards tonight.
Hill - F - Obvious.
ZBo - A - Just dominated Brook Lopez like a red headed step child.
Mason - A - Offense ran much smoother with him out there. Routinely found guys for open shots and is a deadly outside shooter himself. Needs to shoot more IMO.
WCS - A - Did exactly what we've been wanting him to do since the moment he stepped in the league. Worked in the paint and played solid interior defense.
Bogie - A - Found WCS on what, 5 lobs? Shot was on all night and played solid defense on a handful of occasions.
Hield - B+ - His shot is falling and his effort has not gone unnoticed by fans.
Koufos - B - Should maybe be an Inc since he didn't get a ton of minutes but he put up big numbers in the 8 minutes he did play.
Temple - B- - Pesky on defense, shot is still a bit off but he hit some big shots during the game.
Carter - C+ - Played about as well as the old man can these days.
Fox - C - Had some good and some bad moments. Would like to see him in the paint more, for better or worse. 2-2 from 3 is encouraging.
Skal - C- - Grade would be worse but he battled on the boards tonight.
Hill - F - Obvious.
The funniest part is all we heard was Joerger wasn’t going to play the young guys. Now he’s doing that and people are still complaining he’s playing vets too much. He’s played 10-12 players every game this year.
His offense is a base for movement. The issue is guys aren’t moving the way they should be. It’s not the best offense in the league but it’s not the worst.
His offense is a base for movement. The issue is guys aren’t moving the way they should be. It’s not the best offense in the league but it’s not the worst.
I have been watching the Kings as well, for a very long time as well, is it okay for me to have higher expectations and a long term view as a opposed to a win over the lowly lakers on the second night of a back to back? I have legit issues with both the short and long term outlook of the team and provided reasons for my concerns. Ive seen us pile meaningless wins in recent years and been happy about them... only for them to ultimately lead to nothing and more dysfunction.
I simply want to get back to a point where playoffs are the expectation(miss those days) and not a pipe dream, Sometimes I get the feeling that fans are resigned to the fact that the kings might never see actual NBA playoff success and just happy with a win here and there. (Which is totally fine). Personally I dont care about creaming this version of the lakers in November anymore. This year is suppose to really be about the future and the coaching and FO's approach is really perplexing to me.
I thought the place for rosy outlooks and positive opinions only was grant's show and this forum was actually a more of a discussion and having a back and forth about the basketball/FO issues. You will never see me break the forum rules or attack someone personally, but if I occasionally get in the way of your positive outlook feel free to ignore me.
I simply want to get back to a point where playoffs are the expectation(miss those days) and not a pipe dream, Sometimes I get the feeling that fans are resigned to the fact that the kings might never see actual NBA playoff success and just happy with a win here and there. (Which is totally fine). Personally I dont care about creaming this version of the lakers in November anymore. This year is suppose to really be about the future and the coaching and FO's approach is really perplexing to me.
I thought the place for rosy outlooks and positive opinions only was grant's show and this forum was actually a more of a discussion and having a back and forth about the basketball/FO issues. You will never see me break the forum rules or attack someone personally, but if I occasionally get in the way of your positive outlook feel free to ignore me.
Here's an idea... If there a bunch of really happy Kings fans celebrating the win, why not just ignore them and not ruin their fun since you don't care about what they're celebrating? You could actually even start a new thread "We may have won but it didn't solve our problems" or some such thing.
There's room here for all outlooks, but there's also a time and place.
There's room here for all outlooks, but there's also a time and place.
That's not all you heard, come on now. You say it's all you heard and then bring up the offense as if it's a complaint you're addressing, which it is. Probably the main one actually.
There were some good things about last night's game; some of our guys really solidified their bench roles. But is it a coincidence? European PnR machine Bogdanovic and athletic rim runner WCS are all of a sudden playing better. Mason with the second unit is running the offense better than Fox. The second unit scraps the high post stuff mostly. Who's still struggling with their offense: Fox and Skal in the starting lineup. Hell, even vet Temple has been terrible offensively lately.
Zbo was able to get going last night so the starters were able to outplay the Lakers. There were a lot of steps in the right directions should Joerger keep this particular rotation. But it's not going to go away until the elephant in the room is addressed. It's not even really Zbo's fault even though his terrible play most nights doesn't help. The system is designed for him as the main cog, but its a mismatch for everyone that isn't him.
His offense is a square peg in a round hole; that's what it is. And it actually is the worst offense in the league, the numbers back that up. It was never going to be good with our glorified combination of college kids and geezers, but it's shockingly bad.
There were some good things about last night's game; some of our guys really solidified their bench roles. But is it a coincidence? European PnR machine Bogdanovic and athletic rim runner WCS are all of a sudden playing better. Mason with the second unit is running the offense better than Fox. The second unit scraps the high post stuff mostly. Who's still struggling with their offense: Fox and Skal in the starting lineup. Hell, even vet Temple has been terrible offensively lately.
Zbo was able to get going last night so the starters were able to outplay the Lakers. There were a lot of steps in the right directions should Joerger keep this particular rotation. But it's not going to go away until the elephant in the room is addressed. It's not even really Zbo's fault even though his terrible play most nights doesn't help. The system is designed for him as the main cog, but its a mismatch for everyone that isn't him.
His offense is a square peg in a round hole; that's what it is. And it actually is the worst offense in the league, the numbers back that up. It was never going to be good with our glorified combination of college kids and geezers, but it's shockingly bad.
I think people tend to hear what they want to hear. Amazing how one person can praise the lineup with Willie spreading the floor with four shooters, and another can criticize that we're not spreading the floor. We see what we want to see at times. Does out offense look like a well oiled machine, like the Spurs or the Warriors? No, of course not. We have a bunch of kids that are one or two years removed from highschool. What the hell do we expect? I'm really sick and tired of saying this is going to take time.
Look, do most of you remember the first time you got behind the wheel of a car and learned how to drive? Remember how big the car seemed when you were on the road, and how narrow the road seemed. Remember the death grip you had on the steering wheel. Your mind was going a thousand miles a minute trying to remember everything you were supposed to do. Now, do you remember how you felt two years later when you got into the car? You didn't even think about it. The car almost drove itself to where you were going. You were busy listening to the radio, or thinking about what your had to do that day.
That's the difference between being in the NBA your first season, and being in the NBA three or four years later. Some of you are expecting the results of a veteran player from a rookie. THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS!!!!!!!!! Unless your Lebron, or Michael. There are reasons they're called the exceptions.
Look, do most of you remember the first time you got behind the wheel of a car and learned how to drive? Remember how big the car seemed when you were on the road, and how narrow the road seemed. Remember the death grip you had on the steering wheel. Your mind was going a thousand miles a minute trying to remember everything you were supposed to do. Now, do you remember how you felt two years later when you got into the car? You didn't even think about it. The car almost drove itself to where you were going. You were busy listening to the radio, or thinking about what your had to do that day.
That's the difference between being in the NBA your first season, and being in the NBA three or four years later. Some of you are expecting the results of a veteran player from a rookie. THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS!!!!!!!!! Unless your Lebron, or Michael. There are reasons they're called the exceptions.
A D'Antoni system works when you have a Nash and Stoudemire or a Harden, Capela, and shooters. Not so much with the aging Kobe Lakers. A Karl system works with Payton and Kemp, or what he had in Denver. Cousins and Gay? Yeah, no.
A Joerger system works with a Gasol and Randolph from a few years ago, or Cousins. This isn't the ideal way to use the current team and never will be.
A Joerger system works with a Gasol and Randolph from a few years ago, or Cousins. This isn't the ideal way to use the current team and never will be.
Joerger has said he's going to, and is, running a simple offense. I think we all know why. If the young guys can't efficiently run a simple offense, how well do you think they're going to run a more complicated offense? Ditto the defense, which I think has improved of late, mostly because they have Koufos and Willie on the floor together. They've played together for two years, and are familiar with each others games. Randolph knows the offense and the defense, but unfortunately his youth has passed him by to the extent, that against a quick athletic PF, he's a liability. Joerger has been trying to keep a veteran or two on the floor most of the time, so he has people out there that can direct traffic.
I think one of the problems is that all of these parts don't fit together well. The player I question the most is Hill. At times I have no idea what he's doing. He'll dribble the ball all over creation and then throw up a wild prayer shot. Then there are the other times when he looks like the player from last year. And, I think there are times when he would rather be somewhere else. Randolph is always going to give his best effort, and on some nights, like last night, he can make an impact. But he's not suited for sprinting up and down the floor, which for all intents and purposes, turns Fox into a half court player. Don't get me wrong, he has to be able to operate in the half court, but that's not his strength right now.
Personally, I think Joerger is trying to make the best he can out of what he has. You have veteran's that expect a teammate to be in a certain spot on the floor at a certain time, and he's not there. As a result you might end up with a turnover, or at best a broken play. Until these young guys get some experience and everything starts to become instinctive, it's going to look messy at times. To expect otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.
I think one of the problems is that all of these parts don't fit together well. The player I question the most is Hill. At times I have no idea what he's doing. He'll dribble the ball all over creation and then throw up a wild prayer shot. Then there are the other times when he looks like the player from last year. And, I think there are times when he would rather be somewhere else. Randolph is always going to give his best effort, and on some nights, like last night, he can make an impact. But he's not suited for sprinting up and down the floor, which for all intents and purposes, turns Fox into a half court player. Don't get me wrong, he has to be able to operate in the half court, but that's not his strength right now.
Personally, I think Joerger is trying to make the best he can out of what he has. You have veteran's that expect a teammate to be in a certain spot on the floor at a certain time, and he's not there. As a result you might end up with a turnover, or at best a broken play. Until these young guys get some experience and everything starts to become instinctive, it's going to look messy at times. To expect otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.
When last I checked, this team has Randolph on it. I don't think you want Randolph sprinting up and down the floor. Right now, it's as though his starting unit is the halfcourt unit, and the second unit, is the run up and down the floor unit. It appears to me that he's trying to get Fox minutes with each unit. For me personally, I enjoy watching the second unit. However, he's not going to bench Randolph, who can still play a little bit.
Actually I think you cream yourself when you find anything to be critical of Joerger about. You are about the least objective person on this forum when it comes to Joerger. Randolph is on this team, live with it! Yeah, he's a dinosaur, but right now, he's our dinosaur and Joerger is doing about the only thing he can do with him. Your upset because he praises him? Really, what screwy world do you come from where criticizing a player of Randolph's stature is a good thing. Of course he praises Randolph. He's known him for years and coached him for three years in Memphis. They're probably good friends.
Memphis:
2015/16: 42 win's and 40 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2014/15: 55 win's and 27 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2013/14: 50 win's and 32 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2012/13: 56 win's and 26 losses. Head coach Hollins.
2011/12: 41 win's and 25 losses. Head coach Hollins.
2010/11: 46 win's and 36 losses. Head coach Hollins.
This is in response to your ridiculous post that the system in Memphis barely worked and that here it would never work. I don't know about the hear and now, but as for as it barely working in Memphis with Randolph and Gasol, I'll take that kind of barely working all day long. It's one thing to not like a system. I get that, and to be honest I'm a motion offense ball movement kind of guy. But, to say a system didn't work simply because you don't like it, is pure nonsense.
Memphis:
2015/16: 42 win's and 40 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2014/15: 55 win's and 27 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2013/14: 50 win's and 32 losses. Head coach Joerger.
2012/13: 56 win's and 26 losses. Head coach Hollins.
2011/12: 41 win's and 25 losses. Head coach Hollins.
2010/11: 46 win's and 36 losses. Head coach Hollins.
This is in response to your ridiculous post that the system in Memphis barely worked and that here it would never work. I don't know about the hear and now, but as for as it barely working in Memphis with Randolph and Gasol, I'll take that kind of barely working all day long. It's one thing to not like a system. I get that, and to be honest I'm a motion offense ball movement kind of guy. But, to say a system didn't work simply because you don't like it, is pure nonsense.
I don’t want to ignore you. I just want to point it there are many more god things going on with this Kings bunch than there are bad. Don’t you think that Joerger and crew are aware of every little thing going n with Kings? I want a n NBA championship. I want a playoff berth. But maybe you’ve noticed that we are not very likely to get that very soon. In the meantime I have great respect for Joerger and I intend to continue to ENJOY the team and the improvements I see developing under Joerger.
So we should sacrifice the better of the entire team to focus on making sure 36 yr old Zach Randolph is being utilized properly? But not Fox, not Hill, not Hield, not anyone not named Zbo? **** that.
It's actually embarrassing if you were to try to look in as an outside fan, no, not because we're young and inexperienced and a poor overall roster, but that we are running a Zach Randolph all star campaign at his final legs like this is Michael Jordan on the Wizards or something. It's so cringe.
It's actually embarrassing if you were to try to look in as an outside fan, no, not because we're young and inexperienced and a poor overall roster, but that we are running a Zach Randolph all star campaign at his final legs like this is Michael Jordan on the Wizards or something. It's so cringe.
The Kings are trying to run a motion offense much like they ran with Vlade and CWebb back in the day. Motion offenses are complicated. If you don't cut after a pass, it stagnates. If 2 guys cut through the paint at the same time, your spacing is gone. If the player in the high post looks to score first (mainly ZBo) everything falls apart and looks ugly.
When the Kings got CWebb, Vlade and crew they didn't put it all together right away despite having some talented vets in their prime. I think most remember a team that went 27-23 and took Utah to the limit in the first round of the playoffs. The Kings finished the season on a 12-2 stint to make it into the playoffs that year. It took time for them to figure things out.
Now I don't think this current roster is as talented as that one and contains a lot more youth. I would assume it would take even longer for them to all get on the same page.
When the Kings got CWebb, Vlade and crew they didn't put it all together right away despite having some talented vets in their prime. I think most remember a team that went 27-23 and took Utah to the limit in the first round of the playoffs. The Kings finished the season on a 12-2 stint to make it into the playoffs that year. It took time for them to figure things out.
Now I don't think this current roster is as talented as that one and contains a lot more youth. I would assume it would take even longer for them to all get on the same page.