[Grades] Grades vs. Lakers (or We Won BUT...)

#61
The Kings are trying to run a motion offense much like they ran with Vlade and CWebb back in the day. Motion offenses are complicated. If you don't cut after a pass, it stagnates. If 2 guys cut through the paint at the same time, your spacing is gone. If the player in the high post looks to score first (mainly ZBo) everything falls apart and looks ugly.

When the Kings got CWebb, Vlade and crew they didn't put it all together right away despite having some talented vets in their prime. I think most remember a team that went 27-23 and took Utah to the limit in the first round of the playoffs. The Kings finished the season on a 12-2 stint to make it into the playoffs that year. It took time for them to figure things out.

Now I don't think this current roster is as talented as that one and contains a lot more youth. I would assume it would take even longer for them to all get on the same page.
Vlade and Webber were two of the best passing big men in NBA history on the same team. It may take time to get used to things and get better but none of the four young big men on our team project to become playmaking bigs even if they hit their ceilings.
 
#62
Hey, Hill is good at dribbling the ball around for 20 seconds of the shot clock. Gotta give credit where its due.:rolleyes:
George Hill is who he is at this point. Solid defender, good spot shooter, solid pick and roll guy and a nice third scorer who takes advantage of defenses focusing on the primary and secondary scorers to get open looks.

Asking him to be a playmaker or create his own offense is not playing to his strengths.
 
#63
Vlade and Webber were two of the best passing big men in NBA history on the same team. It may take time to get used to things and get better but none of the four young big men on our team project to become playmaking bigs even if they hit their ceilings.
None look to have Vlade (or even Webber's) level of court vision & playmaking but Willie has shown very good passing instincts at times.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#64
Vlade and Webber were two of the best passing big men in NBA history on the same team. It may take time to get used to things and get better but none of the four young big men on our team project to become playmaking bigs even if they hit their ceilings.
That's what has me so intrigued about Harry Giles. We just don't know yet what his ceiling is.
 
#65
Vlade and Webber were two of the best passing big men in NBA history on the same team. It may take time to get used to things and get better but none of the four young big men on our team project to become playmaking bigs even if they hit their ceilings.
You don't need big men to pass like Vlade and CWebb to make the offense work. They just need to be capable passers to keep the defense honest. WCS has shown that ability so far. Even ZBo had 7 assists last night and no one would accuse him of being a good passer. He simply looked to pass more in the 2nd half.
 
#66
Well, I missed the game but watched the highlights!

Bogs to Willie might be a real thing going forward, good to see that both of those guys had great games. WCS has played well in 3 of his last 4 outings! That has to be a record for him, hopefully he keeps it up! Mason is looking like an amazing pick as well. In his limited minutes, he's looked better than Fox!

Strictly going off stats, I would say that Lonzo won round 1. Ah well, I still think Fox has a higher ceiling but Lonzo isn't the slouch that everyone tries to make him out to be. His shooting is abysmal, but the kid can really pass and is a beast on the glass for a PG. If he wasn't a Laker, and if his dad wasn't an idiot, Ball would get a lot less hate. Looking forward to years of Fox and Ball going at it though, should be fun!

Speaking of hate, old man Z-bo did good! I know we want to see the kids get more time/shots, but Z-bo's old man moves keep us in games more often than not. I really don't get the scapegoating. Maybe when Skal proves he can shoot better than 20-30% I'll join in clamoring for more minutes/touches for the kid, but he's looked bad in the games I've watched.

Anyways, we beat The Lakers....Back to lins!
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#67
You don't need big men to pass like Vlade and CWebb to make the offense work. They just need to be capable passers to keep the defense honest. WCS has shown that ability so far. Even ZBo had 7 assists last night and no one would accuse him of being a good passer. He simply looked to pass more in the 2nd half.
And, as Doug said recently in one of the pre-game discussions (or post-game), you'll see more willing passes once the guys get to know each other and trust in each other. It's a learning process.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#68
Well, I missed the game but watched the highlights!

...Strictly going off stats, I would say that Lonzo won round 1. Ah well, I still think Fox has a higher ceiling but Lonzo isn't the slouch that everyone tries to make him out to be. His shooting is abysmal, but the kid can really pass and is a beast on the glass for a PG. If he wasn't a Laker, and if his dad wasn't an idiot, Ball would get a lot less hate. Looking forward to years of Fox and Ball going at it though, should be fun!

Speaking of hate, old man Z-bo did good! I know we want to see the kids get more time/shots, but Z-bo's old man moves keep us in games more often than not. I really don't get the scapegoating. Maybe when Skal proves he can shoot better than 20-30% I'll join in clamoring for more minutes/touches for the kid, but he's looked bad in the games I've watched.

Anyways, we beat The Lakers....Back to lins!
And that, right there, is the problem with stats. Lonzo may have had a bunch of assists but he didn't really impress anybody out there. Even the ESPN crew (I love Doris Burke) seemed more impressed with Frank Mason. So, if you want to really get down to it, Mason won the Fox-Ball matchup. :)
 
#69
What you call haters, I call realists.
I would love it if you eternal optimists were correct. Unfortunately I have way too many years of utter BS to back up what I'm seeing. I see young guys that will not develop correctly. But hey, at least we beat the lakers..........
Just because one sees the worst in everything and everyone doesn’t make them a realist. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
#70
You don't need big men to pass like Vlade and CWebb to make the offense work. They just need to be capable passers to keep the defense honest. WCS has shown that ability so far. Even ZBo had 7 assists last night and no one would accuse him of being a good passer. He simply looked to pass more in the 2nd half.
It's because the ball is always in their hands.
 
#71
OMG. I cannot believe this.

WE BEAT THE FREAKING LAKERS. At least a couple of the keys to our future had great nights. And what happens? A small group of malcontents can't wait to get on here and dump on Dave Joerger and Z-Bo, who led us to the win.

Suck it up, buttercups. Why not just start one thread where you can vent your spleens without ruining it for everyone else? And yes, I'm already aware of the 3 or 4 posters who will get their panties in a bunch over this post ... and quite frankly I couldn't care less.

This is KINGSFANS. We're fans here. We're gonna celebrate wins and we're sure gonna celebrate wins over the effing Lakers. I think at least a couple of you don't want us to enjoy our small moments of celebration. You're only happy if we're all doom and gloom the whole time. Well, that's not gonna happen.

It was a GREAT game last night...on national TV. Doris Burke is an incredible talent and to hear her talk positively about our team and our future was a breath of fresh air. And NO, she did not "elude" to Dave Joerger giving in (unless that's what you wanted to hear her say).

There are legitimate criticisms (A LOT OF THEM) to be made about the Kings. We're LEARNING. What's not legitimate is the constant and never-ending criticism to the point of blind hatred of Dave Joerger. There were a couple of old-timers who used to criticize Adelman, too (and NO, I'm not comparing Joerger to Adelman - only the circumstance). Ironicially enough, about 2 coaches after Adelman those were the guys who cried the most about him being gone.

There are times to be critical and there are times to just sit back and savor the moment. THIS IS A MOMENT TO SAVOR.

And yes, I'm abusing my mod powers by making this comments - but only because of the messages I've received privately from people who don't even like to post here any more because no matter what they say, someone is going to come back with something negative. That's not what this board has ever been about.

And no, I'm not gonna debate this. In fact, I may end up deleting it at some point in time. But geez, guys... take a breath. You don't always have to be so damned negative. If you're here all the time, that's one thing. I may not agree with what you say, but I will (even holding my nose) defend your right to say it as long as it's not just redundant hater-speak. On the other hand, if you show up once in a while and just spew negativity, maybe you should find somewhere else. It's not fair to the rest of us (Positive and Negative) who have spent the time in the trenches through the blink of an eye that was the good times and the rest of eternity (it sometimes seems) that has been the not so good times.

/Endrant
Exactly! I had an epiphany the other night watching the game, they were playing poorly and all I could think about was how the forum would explode with all the negativity and how I dreaded reading all that crap the next day. And then it dawned on me. I don't have to. So I haven't, until today. It's a shame that a few whining malcontents who only live to spew negativity, who's only purpose appears to be to hate on the coach and/or players dominate the board after a loss. But this was a WIN!!! Over the Lakers!!!! I thought it would be safe to log back on and check things out, but NO! The self absorbed, know it all complainers still dominate. I'm sick of their comments hating on the coach and on the players. They are constantly giving up on this player or quitting on that player. They are always experts on last years draft and who the Kings should have taken. Some people on here just don't get it, they don't have a clue what a true rebuild with young inexperienced players involves. The "offense" the team runs now will not be the same offense the team runs down the road as experience is gained and personnel changes so all the whining about the current offense and the coach is for naught. Same for the defense. The players they complain about now will not be the same in a couple years (yes,I said a couple years, you really need to get over the desire for instant gratification and learn some patience). I guess I need to take another 5 game sabbatical.
 
#72
I really wish some of the old timers were still around to really break down Joergers offense. Its alarming how bad it is. Zero spacing for Fox to drive, most jumpers heavily contested because the floor is crammed with bigs. A terrible enviroment for young guards/wings to develop.

It seems that in an era where the rules and the league is more geared towards guards and getting them open looks Joergers system is all about bigs. We almost never go small, play fast, set guys up with rythm jumpers. Its always about the bigs getting theres on offense. I really think this is a bit of Vlades influence in trying to create that C-Webb/Vlade type offense again but those days are over in the NBA.

Its always bigs shooting or setting up the offense. A real awkward and hard to watch system in 2017. Espcially now that we have no Boogie and plug in a poor mans Boogie in ZBO in his place.

The bigs set soft and lazy picks only to secure a shot for themselves and then put us at a disadvantage defensively.

We just spent our 5th pick on a guard and guard play is completely secondary on this team. The bigs are not running around doing the dirty work setting up the guards if they dont get the ball they simplely stop moving which KILLS spacing.

We won the game last night but some of these signs are alarming. If your bigs are taking most of your shots and your playing a 1997 offense in 2017 your team is not going to win in this day and age.

Joerger needs to shelve this offense and go more modern with dribble drives threes and spacing or be fired. This offense needs to be centered around Fox/Buddy/Bogie etc. not freakin 37 year old ZBO.

So Fox plays 23 minutes yesterday and Lonzo plays 37. The Lakers have no pick and a way more incentive to win yet they still go thru the growing pains and play Lonzo 35+ yet we have our pick and only run our young guy 23 minutes?! Terrible rudderless franchise.

As Doris Burke eluded to on the broadcast this is not about "earning your minutes" anymore ZBO and G Hill straight up said NO to Jorger when he approached them to reduce their minutes. So to avoid problems Joerger gave in? TERIBLE.
This summer, I called into question the whole mentoring narrative, and thought they may have just been random vets that came here because we offered the most..
 
#73
This summer, I called into question the whole mentoring narrative, and thought they may have just been random vets that came here because we offered the most..
This isnt a Tim Duncan situation, these "vets" have no vested interest in Sac beyond there paycheck and playing time.
 
#75
So we should sacrifice the better of the entire team to focus on making sure 36 yr old Zach Randolph is being utilized properly? But not Fox, not Hill, not Hield, not anyone not named Zbo? **** that.

It's actually embarrassing if you were to try to look in as an outside fan, no, not because we're young and inexperienced and a poor overall roster, but that we are running a Zach Randolph all star campaign at his final legs like this is Michael Jordan on the Wizards or something. It's so cringe.
I would much prefer watching Zbo play in the way he s used now to watching Skal struggle only mildly successfully with baby steps. Skal s time will come but Zbo is a far more productive choice. Divak knew what he was doing when he hied these vets.j
 
#76
I would much prefer watching Zbo play in the way he s used now to watching Skal struggle only mildly successfully with baby steps. Skal s time will come but Zbo is a far more productive choice. Divak knew what he was doing when he hied these vets.j
Yes, he is a better option. Neither of them should be the focal point of the office though. So I disagree with wanting to watch that.
 
#77
It's because the ball is always in their hands.
That's been my main complaint. As soon as Fox crosses half court, he's turning around to pass to the trailing Z-bo. Completely neutralizes his main asset of speed. It works for Mason, who is a traditional PG. I'm not convinced that this particular offense fits our players skill set as a whole. But I'll wait and see where this takes us.
 
#78
That's been my main complaint. As soon as Fox crosses half court, he's turning around to pass to the trailing Z-bo. Completely neutralizes his main asset of speed. It works for Mason, who is a traditional PG. I'm not convinced that this particular offense fits our players skill set as a whole. But I'll wait and see where this takes us.
It's always a double edge sword with Dave. He starts Fox finally.. Which we all wanted.. But he slows the offense down even more..

Fox may be the fastest player in the league. How on Earth can we be having the slowest pace in the league?
 
#79
Exactly! I had an epiphany the other night watching the game, they were playing poorly and all I could think about was how the forum would explode with all the negativity and how I dreaded reading all that crap the next day. And then it dawned on me. I don't have to. So I haven't, until today. It's a shame that a few whining malcontents who only live to spew negativity, who's only purpose appears to be to hate on the coach and/or players dominate the board after a loss. But this was a WIN!!! Over the Lakers!!!! I thought it would be safe to log back on and check things out, but NO! The self absorbed, know it all complainers still dominate. I'm sick of their comments hating on the coach and on the players. They are constantly giving up on this player or quitting on that player. They are always experts on last years draft and who the Kings should have taken. Some people on here just don't get it, they don't have a clue what a true rebuild with young inexperienced players involves. The "offense" the team runs now will not be the same offense the team runs down the road as experience is gained and personnel changes so all the whining about the current offense and the coach is for naught. Same for the defense. The players they complain about now will not be the same in a couple years (yes,I said a couple years, you really need to get over the desire for instant gratification and learn some patience). I guess I need to take another 5 game sabbatical.
Keyboard coaches don't like the way we win and the open shots we get are not the right open shots if we don't make them.
 
#81
On the move again so haven't been able to comment like I'd like. Short, short version: I am glad we won that one. Long way to go but, as a good friend always said, it's the little things. I hate micromanaging, a lot. If we had went 4 and 78 this season, I know which 4 games I would want for victories. Definitely doesn't mean we can't develop. I'm not afraid to just admit I don't know everything, and that I love the team I adopted and it's fans too much, to micromanage. P.S. If you're more depressed about our team than The Suicide King, your doing life wrong.
 
#82
Great, we traded the Boogie HOF or you are a bball worm for bickering about everything wrong with the Kings. Great times at kingsfans.com.

Mind you, I'm not too happy about our offense either but there's a time and place for everything.
 
#83
It's always a double edge sword with Dave. He starts Fox finally.. Which we all wanted.. But he slows the offense down even more..

Fox may be the fastest player in the league. How on Earth can we be having the slowest pace in the league?
I didnt look at the stats, but one possible explanation for a slower pace could be, that we arent getting a lot of deflections and steals, arent a good defensive team in general and put guards and wings dont get enough rebounds to push the ball, while our Main rebounders arent guys able to throw quick advance passes.

Basically we are playing against a set Defense most of the time.
 
#85
It's always a double edge sword with Dave. He starts Fox finally.. Which we all wanted.. But he slows the offense down even more..

Fox may be the fastest player in the league. How on Earth can we be having the slowest pace in the league?
I've been watching coach on the bench a lot. He is NEVER ever ever ever ever saying to slow it down. He is always saying "run run run run run".

Maybe Fox and friends just aren't executing perfectly yet?
 
#88
The numbers back me up, not 'I heard Joerger yell once'

I mean it's pretty self explanatory, we run a high post, low post offense. We run a lot of post ups and isolations for Zbo and our bigs.

It's going to be slow.
 
#89
Dude you are just constantly railing against Joerger. John Galt made an eye witness account of Coach urging his guys to run. Many of us have heard it as well.

Did Dave do you wrong in a past life:)
We don't know the exact ins and outs of what's going on out there but it's confusing for not only us but it seems like it's confusing for the players too.

Ok so lets say WCS grabs a rebound and pushes it out to De'Aaron. Joerger is yelling run, run, run! Fox speeds up the court but there are 3 defenders near the paint so he circles back out to the 3 point line because there's nothing there. Happens 95% of the time in an NBA game. No biggie.

It is at that point that the offense grinds to a halt. It doesn't have to grind to a halt but it does because it's at that moment when they set up the high post offense and either get ZBo a look or waste 10 seconds of the shot clock accomplishing nothing. Instead of getting in the high post, they could simply run a quick pick and roll and see what happens off of that or they could run any sort of play that doesn't take 10 seconds to develop. But usually they just wind up running a high post play.

Remember Joerger saying before the season that he wanted these guys to run and if they couldn't get anything, he wanted to swing it over to the big fella and let him go to work? Most of us were under the impression that ZBo was going to be used more as an emergency plan when a play is broken or time is slipping from the shot clock. I don't care how fast you are, teams don't just fast break all game. It's simply not always there but there's more to playing an uptempo offense than just fast break points. We thought that there would be more to this "fast paced" offense than simply running up the court after a rebound. We thought the plays ran in the half court would be quicker and develop quicker to get the guards in the spots they need to be to be effective.

We didn't think it was going to be about swinging it over to ZBo or WCS in the high post if they couldn't get a fast break bucket within the first 5 seconds of the shot clock. That doesn't happen that often in an NBA game and Joerger needs to develop something in between the fastest offense in the NBA (fast break points) and the slowest offense in the NBA (high post). That's what has to be confusing for these guys because the fast break points are usually not there so how are they supposed to keeping "running" when they're being made to set up a high post offensive set?