Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades

[206Fan]

I have not seen Rozier play extensively but I am going to hazard a guess that saying his value is equal to Rudy Gay seems a bit much. Can you convince me he is worth Rudy?

I don't think his value is worth Rudy Gay at all, but it's more about Boston rather keeping a promising young PG who has 3 years left on a rookie scale over a 29/30 yearold Gay who only has 1 year left.

Unlike the Kings, real teams don't trade away 1st round draftees within their first year. Rozier basically didn't even play for them last year. When he did, it was short little stints.

 

[CelticsFan]

I have not seen Rozier play extensively but I am going to hazard a guess that saying his value is equal to Rudy Gay seems a bit much. Can you convince me he is worth Rudy?

Rozier is a 22 year old two way PG on a rookie deal signed through 2019-2020. After the 2019-2020 season he becomes a RFA and the Celtics will be able to match any deal that comes his way, basically they can control him for the next 7 years or so. Celtic front office as well as teammates have made a point to talk about the big improvements Rozier has made to his game, he also had a really good SL. Rozier looks like he's made a big jump in his game, the defense was there last season and now it looks like he is more confident in his offense.

Gay doesn't make much sense for the Celtics. They currently have Jae Crowder playing SF and just drafted Jaylen Brown with the 3rd overall pick. Mortgaging a young 2 way PG for Rudy Gay to come off the bench just doesn't make sense. FWIW Rozier has been the most hyped Celtics of the offseason.

 

[dude12]

Apparently Rozier is now untouchable

 

[CelticsFan]

Apparently Rozier is now untouchable

No just commenting on a proposed trade in the possible trade forum. I don't think Gay is a piece the Celtics would want based on fit and what they would need to give up to get him.

 

[King Baller]

Rozier is a 22 year old two way PG on a rookie deal signed through 2019-2020. After the 2019-2020 season he becomes a RFA and the Celtics will be able to match any deal that comes his way, basically they can control him for the next 7 years or so. Celtic front office as well as teammates have made a point to talk about the big improvements Rozier has made to his game, he also had a really good SL. Rozier looks like he's made a big jump in his game, the defense was there last season and now it looks like he is more confident in his offense.

Gay doesn't make much sense for the Celtics. They currently have Jae Crowder playing SF and just drafted Jaylen Brown with the 3rd overall pick. Mortgaging a young 2 way PG for Rudy Gay to come off the bench just doesn't make sense. FWIW Rozier has been the most hyped Celtics of the offseason.

It sounds like the Kings and Celtics are not good trade partners.

Now that we know Collison is out just 8 games I am content letting things play out for now. Lets get through Camp and Preseason and then see how Lawson, Farmar and Temple handle the Lead Guard spot though those 8 games and how Collison looks when he comes back.

It may turn out that the current group is pretty good. Either way as the season progresses Vlade can check with Thibs again on Rubio. The Kings depth could prove to be valuable. If the Kings Players can stay healthy other teams could come calling when their guys go down.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Rozier is a 22 year old two way PG on a rookie deal signed through 2019-2020. After the 2019-2020 season he becomes a RFA and the Celtics will be able to match any deal that comes his way, basically they can control him for the next 7 years or so. Celtic front office as well as teammates have made a point to talk about the big improvements Rozier has made to his game, he also had a really good SL. Rozier looks like he's made a big jump in his game, the defense was there last season and now it looks like he is more confident in his offense.

Gay doesn't make much sense for the Celtics. They currently have Jae Crowder playing SF and just drafted Jaylen Brown with the 3rd overall pick. Mortgaging a young 2 way PG for Rudy Gay to come off the bench just doesn't make sense. FWIW Rozier has been the most hyped Celtics of the offseason.

The main reason why Rudy Gay would make sense for the Celtics is that he can create offense on his own. The Playoffs showed, that the Celtics lacked in that regard last season. Horford is a nice player, but he is not a guy, who creates a ton on his own, leaving the Celtics once again with IT as the focal point of the offense and with Bradley as their second best player, when it comes to creating some offense.
Given that Smart is a candidate for big minutes at the guard spots, Rozier is a bit of a luxury. Basically just one of those guys can be the main backup PG, forcing the other to play most of his minutes off the ball, where Smarts lack of a consistent jumpshot can really hurt the team. Of course Stevens will opt for a lot of three guard lineups and with Smart's bulky built he can certainly play good minutes as an undersized SF, but is that really an ideal solution?
Now when it comes to the forward spot, it's crystal clear, that Crowder and Gay are more than capable to play both forward positions. Against most teams it won't be a problem to play Gay alongside Crowder and it would certainly be a much stronger forward tandem as something like Amir/Crowder, Jerebko/Crowder or Olynyk/Crowder.
So basically I would judge the Celtics as one of the very few decent landing spots for Rudy Gay.
But I as a Kings fan would certainly prefer to get Marcus Smart in a trade over Terry Rozier, even though I noticed his SL performance and was impressed by his contribution in limited minutes last season.
I would expect Stevens to prefer Rozier over Smart, because Rozier provides good enough grittyness on D and is the better shooter of those two.
I personally would go with Smart for the Kings, because we are in desperate need of some real defensive playmaker, while we could compensate Smarts lack of shooting prowess with lineups incorporating Barnes and Casspi at the forward spots.

 

[CelticsFan]

The main reason why Rudy Gay would make sense for the Celtics is that he can create offense on his own. The Playoffs showed, that the Celtics lacked in that regard last season. Horford is a nice player, but he is not a guy, who creates a ton on his own, leaving the Celtics once again with IT as the focal point of the offense and with Bradley as their second best player, when it comes to creating some offense.
Given that Smart is a candidate for big minutes at the guard spots, Rozier is a bit of a luxury. Basically just one of those guys can be the main backup PG, forcing the other to play most of his minutes off the ball, where Smarts lack of a consistent jumpshot can really hurt the team. Of course Stevens will opt for a lot of three guard lineups and with Smart's bulky built he can certainly play good minutes as an undersized SF, but is that really an ideal solution?
Now when it comes to the forward spot, it's crystal clear, that Crowder and Gay are more than capable to play both forward positions. Against most teams it won't be a problem to play Gay alongside Crowder and it would certainly be a much stronger forward tandem as something like Amir/Crowder, Jerebko/Crowder or Olynyk/Crowder.
So basically I would judge the Celtics as one of the very few decent landing spots for Rudy Gay.
But I as a Kings fan would certainly prefer to get Marcus Smart in a trade over Terry Rozier, even though I noticed his SL performance and was impressed by his contribution in limited minutes last season.
I would expect Stevens to prefer Rozier over Smart, because Rozier provides good enough grittyness on D and is the better shooter of those two.
I personally would go with Smart for the Kings, because we are in desperate need of some real defensive playmaker, while we could compensate Smarts lack of shooting prowess with lineups incorporating Barnes and Casspi at the forward spots.

Yes I see your point that Gay could provide some nice scoring to help the Celtics but I disagree with when it comes to what they would be willing to give up to get him. Smart and Rozier are valued high within the organization. Now if you were to say James Young and RJ Hunter for Gay I think the Celtics would be all over that. If there was a deal Vlade could make for either Rozier or Smart and he didn't pull the trigger shame on him, I just don't think that deal is available for the Kings.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Yes I see your point that Gay could provide some nice scoring to help the Celtics but I disagree with when it comes to what they would be willing to give up to get him. Smart and Rozier are valued high within the organization. Now if you were to say James Young and RJ Hunter for Gay I think the Celtics would be all over that. If there was a deal Vlade could make for either Rozier or Smart and he didn't pull the trigger shame on him, I just don't think that deal is available for the Kings.

As far as I know Danny Ainge won't make a trade unless he absolutely fleeces his trade partner. So most likely he wouldn't want to send something of value back for Gay. And time is clearly on his side, because he can wait until the deadline to make a deal for Gay, when he trusts into Stevens ability to teach his system fast enough, that Rudy could make a real impact in the Playoffs for the Celtics (that's the thing though - trading for Gay now is a lot saver).
But for the Kings a deal for players like Young or Hunter (who may have a future in this league, because of his very quick release) doesn't make a lot of sense until we are clearly out of the Playoff picture and even then they should look for some kind of draft pick for Gay.
So I don't think a trade will happen. I just think Ainge could make the jump to real contender status for the Celtics a lot quicker, if he wouldn't expect every GM to act like Billy King.
Gay for Smart or Rozier is perfectly fine in terms of value. One shouldn't expect to pick up a proven and seasoned scorer for young roster leftovers.

 

[bajaden]

No just commenting on a proposed trade in the possible trade forum. I don't think Gay is a piece the Celtics would want based on fit and what they would need to give up to get him.

Well the Celtics are one of the teams that have inquired about Rudy, so apparently they have, or at least had some interest at one time. I saw Rozier play in summer league and I thought the best PG's I saw play there were, in no particular order, Kris Dunn, Tyrus Jones, and Terry Rozier. I saw all of them play at least three times. If I'm Boston I would trade Smart before I trade Rozier, but that's just me. I'm not a big Marcus Smart fan. By all accounts Rozier is having a very good training camp as well.

 

[Bricklayer]

What, however, would we do with yet another PG?

We've already got 3 NBA PGs on the roster, all under 30, with a combined 1500 games and 700 starts of NBA experience. And that's not even counting Temple, who is half a PG himself.

And it appears we could have traded Ben for MCW too if we wanted another one with minimal impact on our roster.

 

[King Baller]

If I was Divac I advise Joerger to keep the minutes down by playing the depth. This allows more guys to play and lessens the wear and tear that leads to some types of injuries. When other teams injuries start piling up (See the Bucks and Middleton) they will come calling.

When Ainge is desperate for Rudy Gay for the playoff run or another GM needs an injury replacement then let them make their best offer. Time is on the Kings side IMO.

 

[Bricklayer]

If I was Divac I advise Joerger to keep the minutes down by playing the depth. This allows more guys to play and lessens the wear and tear that leads to some types of injuries. When other teams injuries start piling up (See the Bucks and Middleton) they will come calling.

When Ainge is desperate for Rudy Gay for the playoff run or another GM needs an injury replacement then let them make their best offer. Time is on the Kings side IMO.

We're trying to make a playoff run ourself. Generally speaking giving up your 2nd best player midseason would be a weird way to do that. If he's here, and if things haven't gone into the crapper again, in which case he will likely be the second best King on the market, he's probably here throughout unless somebody offers us an actual upgrade.

As for injuries -- one advantage of depth, as well as general lack of top end talent, is we can have some injuries...to everyone but Cuz, who we need to play 70+ games and major minutes.

 

[206Fan]

Yes I see your point that Gay could provide some nice scoring to help the Celtics but I disagree with when it comes to what they would be willing to give up to get him. Smart and Rozier are valued high within the organization. Now if you were to say James Young and RJ Hunter for Gay I think the Celtics would be all over that. If there was a deal Vlade could make for either Rozier or Smart and he didn't pull the trigger shame on him, I just don't think that deal is available for the Kings.

Come on. I agree with a lot of your ideas, but James Young and RJ Hunter for Gay? That's terrible. James Young is a near-bust. RJ Hunter who was a 1st round pick last year is fighting for a roster spot right now.

I don't know what the Kings are going to do with a 21yearold player who's the worse version of McLemore and Hunter who can't crack the Celtics rotation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Celtics desperately need shooting?

This isn't a trade the Kings can afford to make. Vlade already got fleeced by the Sixers....he won't get fleeced again.

 

[Bricklayer]

This isn't a trade the Kings can afford to make. Vlade already got fleeced by the Sixers....he won't get fleeced again.

Oh yeah, real fleeced.

So far we've given up essentially nothing in that trade.

We turned one of the pieces we used the money from the trade into a 1st round pick (Malachi).

We have used the rest of the money to sign part of our free agents.

We did not give up the first pick swap, with Joerger here and Simmons gone, the odds of us giving up the second pick swap are shrinking all the time.


At this point the absolute worst the trade works out for us is we swapped a 2018 first rounder for a 2016 first rounder (Malachi).

 

[CelticsFan]

Come on. I agree with a lot of your ideas, but James Young and RJ Hunter for Gay? That's terrible. James Young is a near-bust. RJ Hunter who was a 1st round pick last year is fighting for a roster spot right now.

I don't know what the Kings are going to do with a 21yearold player who's the worse version of McLemore and Hunter who can't crack the Celtics rotation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Celtics desperately need shooting?

This isn't a trade the Kings can afford to make. Vlade already got fleeced by the Sixers....he won't get fleeced again.

Sorry I may have not been clear. I don't think a trade is there between the two teams. I think the Celtics like Rozier, I don't think they would give him up for a rental of Gay. There's no real pieces between the two teams that make sense for a trade. Would the Celtics give up Hunter and Young for Gay? Of course they would but the Kings wouldn't. Who on the Celtics would be available for a trade of Gay that would make sense for both teams? IMO there just isn't a trade to be had between the two teams.

 

[pshn80]

Let's stay with the team we have for the time being. We have fixed three major personnel problems from last year - starting SG and starting C/PF, and beefed up the quality of ou rotation guys. Before tampering more let's let them work on teamwork and meshing.

 

[kingsboi]

Let's stay with the team we have for the time being. We have fixed three major personnel problems from last year - starting SG and starting C/PF, and beefed up the quality of ou rotation guys. Before tampering more let's let them work on teamwork and meshing.

Agreed. Revisit trades come February and try to package Rudy off with Ben maybe for something, if not, then that's two more players coming off the books. Too many roster changes every season, I guess you mix and match until you find the right fit, even if you waste a season or two in the process.

 

[KingMilz]

Let's stay with the team we have for the time being. We have fixed three major personnel problems from last year - starting SG and starting C/PF, and beefed up the quality of ou rotation guys. Before tampering more let's let them work on teamwork and meshing.

When did we fix that by adding Tolliver? If WCS maintains his SL/Preseaon performance up that's a huge area of concern considering Koufus/Cousins pairing never worked (could change) and we don't know how well Casspi/Barnes will if we go small atm we don't have a starting PF/C depending on what Cousins is.

 

[The_Jamal]

Oh yeah, real fleeced.

So far we've given up essentially nothing in that trade.

We turned one of the pieces we used the money from the trade into a 1st round pick (Malachi).

We have used the rest of the money to sign part of our free agents.

We did not give up the first pick swap, with Joerger here and Simmons gone, the odds of us giving up the second pick swap are shrinking all the time.


At this point the absolute worst the trade works out for us is we swapped a 2018 first rounder for a 2016 first rounder (Malachi).

.... 2019 unprotected first the year Cousins is a FA has the potential to set this franchise back years. If we keep Cousins, cool, it means we're likely good and we're probably giving away a pick around the 18-22 range (same as Malachi).

If we gamble on Cousins staying without an extension the last year, or trade him for assets, we're going to suck. And missing that pick is going to severely hamper the rebuild.

 

[andjel]

.... 2019 unprotected first the year Cousins is a FA has the potential to set this franchise back years. If we keep Cousins, cool, it means we're likely good and we're probably giving away a pick around the 18-22 range (same as Malachi).

If we gamble on Cousins staying without an extension the last year, or trade him for assets, we're going to suck. And missing that pick is going to severely hamper the rebuild.

The buzz word that prompted reply was "fleeced", which I think we can agree the above scenario is not.
Can you help me understand even in the above worst case scenario, why would this hamper Kings for more than a year?

 

[KingMilz]

The buzz word that prompted reply was "fleeced", which I think we can agree the above scenario is not.
Can you help me understand even in the above worst case scenario, why would this hamper Kings for more than a year?

Because if we can draft a really good player and you don't as you have seen with us for the past 10 years passing on the likes of Lillard/Drummond/Booker/Lenoard/Curry just to name a few has not lead to positive results which has hampered the Kings for a very long time.

 

[andjel]

Because if we can draft a really good player and you don't as you have seen with us for the past 10 years passing on the likes of Lillard/Drummond/Booker/Lenoard/Curry just to name a few has not lead to positive results which has hampered the Kings for a very long time.

We would have a shot as such player the following year.

 

[The_Jamal]

The buzz word that prompted reply was "fleeced", which I think we can agree the above scenario is not.
Can you help me understand even in the above worst case scenario, why would this hamper Kings for more than a year?

Because I think we all agree the worst case in the next season is Cousins no longer being on the team right? Which means we end up trading him for a picks and some young talent; meaning we will be in contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

Or even worse, we keep Cousins into his final season without an extension and he ends up walking for nothing. That top 5 pick of all of sudden becomes our new franchise player.

Meaning we essentially traded Stauskas, JT, Landry, and a top 5 pick for Malachi and Koufos. Doesn't seem that good eh?

If you can't see how losing a top 5 pick hamstrings a bad team for years, then I don't really know what to tell you.

 

[pshn80]

When did we fix that by adding Tolliver? If WCS maintains his SL/Preseaon performance up that's a huge area of concern considering Koufus/Cousins pairing never worked (could change) and we don't know how well Casspi/Barnes will if we go small atm we don't have a starting PF/C depending on what Cousins is.

Starting PF was Willie and is now Koufos (maybe). In my view that is a significant improvement.

 

[andjel]

Because I think we all agree the worst case in the next season is Cousins no longer being on the team right? Which means we end up trading him for a picks and some young talent; meaning we will be in contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

Or even worse, we keep Cousins into his final season without an extension and he ends up walking for nothing. That top 5 pick of all of sudden becomes our new franchise player.

Meaning we essentially traded Stauskas, JT, Landry, and a top 5 pick for Malachi and Koufos. Doesn't seem that good eh?

If you can't see how losing a top 5 pick hamstrings a bad team for years, then I don't really know what to tell you.

I can see how it hamstrings us for ONE year, not years.
We will have that top 5 pick in 2020.

 

[The_Jamal]

I can see how it hamstrings us for ONE year, not years.
We will have that top 5 pick in 2020.

Guys drafted in the top 5 since 2010 who are stars or have star potential or are quality NBA starters:

2010:
Wall- Star
Boogie- Star
Favors?? Not sure what to classify him as, but he's at the very least an above average starter

2011:

Kyrie-Star
Kanter-Good player
Tristan Thompson- Good Player
Jonas Valuncunas- Good Player

2012:

Anthony Davis- Star
Brad Beal- Same boat as Favors
MKG- Good player when healthy

2013:

Historically bad draft, but Oladipo still has a chance to be a star. Definitely qualifies in the Good Player category

2014:

Wiggins- Star Potential
Parker- Star Potential maybe? Will be a good player for a long time
Aaron Gordon- Star Potential if he doesn't get lost on bench
Embiid- Star Potential, but big ??? with health


2015:

KAT- Star Potential
Russell- Star Potential
Kristaps- Star Potential
Okafor- Ceiling is limited, but will be an above Average Player

2016:

Simmons- Star Potential
Ingram- Star Potential
Dunn- Star Potenial
Hard to tell with Bender and Brown because their games haven't caught up yet, but I think both can get there too.

Point is, if you "trade" your top 5 pick, you're more likely than not going to get a player who's going to make an impact for your franchise. The trade sucks because of the unknown with Cousins and potentially losing the next Wall, Davis, Boogie, KAT in the draft.

 

[andjel]

Guys drafted in the top 5 since 2010 who are stars or have star potential or are quality NBA starters:

2010:
Wall- Star
Boogie- Star
Favors?? Not sure what to classify him as, but he's at the very least an above average starter

2011:

Kyrie-Star
Kanter-Good player
Tristan Thompson- Good Player
Jonas Valuncunas- Good Player

2012:

Anthony Davis- Star
Brad Beal- Same boat as Favors
MKG- Good player when healthy

2013:

Historically bad draft, but Oladipo still has a chance to be a star. Definitely qualifies in the Good Player category

2014:

Wiggins- Star Potential
Parker- Star Potential maybe? Will be a good player for a long time
Aaron Gordon- Star Potential if he doesn't get lost on bench
Embiid- Star Potential, but big ??? with health


2015:

KAT- Star Potential
Russell- Star Potential
Kristaps- Star Potential
Okafor- Ceiling is limited, but will be an above Average Player

2016:

Simmons- Star Potential
Ingram- Star Potential
Dunn- Star Potenial
Hard to tell with Bender and Brown because their games haven't caught up yet, but I think both can get there too.

Point is, if you "trade" your top 5 pick, you're more likely than not going to get a player who's going to make an impact for your franchise. The trade sucks because of the unknown with Cousins and potentially losing the next Wall, Davis, Boogie, KAT in the draft.

Yes, top 5 pick is important. Fully on board.
That was not what I was inquiring.

You said "2019 unprotected first the year Cousins is a FA has the potential to set this franchise back years. "
Why years? To me it sounds more dramatic than it is.
If we happen to lose that pick in 2019, we will be in the same situation just a year later, and have the top 5 pick that year instead.
A year lost is not good, but it is definitely not "years".

 

[upinsmoke]

Sorry I may have not been clear. I don't think a trade is there between the two teams. I think the Celtics like Rozier, I don't think they would give him up for a rental of Gay. There's no real pieces between the two teams that make sense for a trade. Would the Celtics give up Hunter and Young for Gay? Of course they would but the Kings wouldn't. Who on the Celtics would be available for a trade of Gay that would make sense for both teams? IMO there just isn't a trade to be had between the two teams.

I can see a 3 team deal involving the clips with Rudy Gay going to LAC and one of the Boston guards coming here. Or maybe even a deal with Koufos heading to Boston because that's a player that the Celtics could use.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Yes, top 5 pick is important. Fully on board.
That was not what I was inquiring.

You said "2019 unprotected first the year Cousins is a FA has the potential to set this franchise back years. "
Why years? To me it sounds more dramatic than it is.
If we happen to lose that pick in 2019, we will be in the same situation just a year later, and have the top 5 pick that year instead.
A year lost is not good, but it is definitely not "years".

Given that the draft is far from certain, when you're bottoming out you want as many bites at the apple as possible until you know you've got your guy(s).

 

[Bricklayer]

Because I think we all agree the worst case in the next season is Cousins no longer being on the team right? Which means we end up trading him for a picks and some young talent; meaning we will be in contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

Or even worse, we keep Cousins into his final season without an extension and he ends up walking for nothing. That top 5 pick of all of sudden becomes our new franchise player.

Meaning we essentially traded Stauskas, JT, Landry, and a top 5 pick for Malachi and Koufos. Doesn't seem that good eh?

If you can't see how losing a top 5 pick hamstrings a bad team for years, then I don't really know what to tell you.

All very nice.

And still the fact is there was no fleecing, or anything remotely like a fleecing. Its all speculation and risk assessment. Its well within possibility that in the end Philly ends up with a bunch of junk long off its roster, and a #22 pick in 2019, while we end up with 3 second round picks, Koufos (or something we trade him for), and a pick we turned into Malachi.

And Vlade made a move that should be 100% standard. You go all in to save the the superstar you have. The young superstar at that. Like in many things in life, if you play not to lose, you aren't going to win. Vlade's not going to lose a bleeping thing in that Philly deal, in fact has gained numerous young players now off of it, UNLESS DeMarcus leaves. And since the point of the deal was to try to put together a team to keep DeMarcus from leaving, it wasn't random or not attached. You have the #1 center in the entire league on your team. The 4th leading score in the NBA. So you make a move to save him. And if the move works out, you give up exactly jack and squat. That's hardly a fleecing. Its a calculation. A calculated gamble. And one that in many ways puts Philadelphia in the passive loser's seat, because they have absolutely no control of how it is going to play out. Vlade has control. Cousins has control. Philadelphia was making a blind bet. Vlade made a bet on his ability and his guy.