2016 NBA Draft Discussion

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
If national media is to be believed, Sacramento is at the absolute bottom of the list of preferred NBA destinations for rookies and agents are doing their best to steer their clients anywhere else.

I'm guessing that's not too far off from the truth and a result of over a decade of losing and chaotic/horrible management.

Obviously that would all change quickly if the team started winning, but right now I'm not sure how likely a turnaround of this team is.
 
It does appear Vlade is taking a different approach than we have seen in the past as far as workouts in Sacramento. He and Peja were in Chicago and interviewed all the prospects. They scouted in Europe. There is mountains of video to preview and gauge players during actual games. I'm really not too worried about the pick. I'm sure they have a list of guys they like and will pick whoever is there at #8 or as mentioned perhaps trade it.
 
http://www.nba.com/kings/blog/prospects-announced-kings-pre-draft-workouts-1

June 15, 2016
  • Zachary Auguste (F – 6’10” 242 lbs.) Notre Dame
  • Egidijus Mockevicius (C – 6’10” 225 lbs.) Evansville
  • Wade Baldwin (G – 6’4” 202 lbs.) Vanderbilt
  • Antwan Scott (G – 6’2” 178 lbs.) Colorado State
  • Eric McClellan (G – 6’4” 196 lbs.) Gonzaga
  • Fred VanVleet (G – 6’0” 195 lbs.) Wichita State
Classic 3-on-3 workout with 2 guards, 2 wings and 2 bigs, even if wings are smallish. Kings will probably drill Baldwin through P&R with both bigs specializing in that, and FVV being a tough defender. Might explain, why it took a bit longer to set up the workout: needed specific personnel to take a proper look at Baldwin.
 
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Latest draftexpress mock has us taking Murray. Honestly this mock is one I can definitely see happening. A lot of what has been discussed lately is represented in this mock. Also idc if Murray refuses to work out for us. If he's there at 8 he better start scouting homes in Sac.
 
http://www.nba.com/kings/blog/prospects-announced-kings-pre-draft-workouts-1

June 15, 2016
  • Zachary Auguste (F – 6’10” 242 lbs.) Notre Dame
  • Egidijus Mockevicius (C – 6’10” 225 lbs.) Evansville
  • Wade Baldwin (G – 6’4” 202 lbs.) Vanderbilt
  • Antwan Scott (G – 6’2” 178 lbs.) Colorado State
  • Eric McClellan (G – 6’4” 196 lbs.) Gonzaga
  • Fred VanVleet (G – 6’0” 195 lbs.) Wichita State
Classic 3-on-3 workout with 2 guards, 2 wings and 2 bigs, even if wings are smallish. Kings will probably drill Baldwin through P&R with both bigs specializing in that, and FVV being a tough defender. Might explain, why it took a bit longer to set up the workout: needed specific personnel to take a proper look at Baldwin.
Auguste would be a great roll man for Baldwin.

I think Baldwin could be the pick at 8. Great shooter who's a decent playmaker. His defense is going to be very good at the next level.

I think his floor is Pat Beverely, while his ceiling will depend on his aggressiveness. Biggest weaknesses are very much fixable. Ball handling and finishing around the rim.
 
Nice to see Baldwin working out for us.
Mike Bratz said that the top prospects are hard to workout at #8 because their agents dont want it to look like they would fall. Our reputation doesnt help either. But as Baldwin is not considered a top prospect it makes sense for him to workout for us. If Dunn is gone and if we dont like whoever oft the "consensus top 8 players" falls Baldwin is a good back up plan. Either wie just pick him at #8 or we trade down a few spots and pick up another asset along the way.
 
Baldwin is a fine prospect but projects as a backup PG who'd be quite a reach at 8. I like his defensive potential (6'11" wingspan) and 3P shooting capability, but he's got some big issues (which may not be fixable) in scoring inside the arc/handling the rock and is only an average passer. A nice backup for a team needing 3P shooting and defense off the bench, maybe a secondary PG, but not the Kings, who need starters.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Auguste would be a great roll man for Baldwin.

I think Baldwin could be the pick at 8. Great shooter who's a decent playmaker. His defense is going to be very good at the next level.

I think his floor is Pat Beverely, while his ceiling will depend on his aggressiveness. Biggest weaknesses are very much fixable. Ball handling and finishing around the rim.
Auguste would be a great roll man for Baldwin.

I think Baldwin could be the pick at 8. Great shooter who's a decent playmaker. His defense is going to be very good at the next level.

I think his floor is Pat Beverely, while his ceiling will depend on his aggressiveness. Biggest weaknesses are very much fixable. Ball handling and finishing around the rim.
I like Baldwin quite a bit. Right now I would call him Kris Dunn lite. Give Baldwin one more year of college, and he might be where Dunn is right now. Dunn is the better finisher and ball handler, but Baldwin is the more consistent outside shooter. I could certainly live with him depending on the type of offense the Kings are going to run. Right now, I think Baldwin may be a better off the ball player, and if what you expect of him is what the Kings used to expect from Mike Bibby, he'll be fine.
 
I like Baldwin quite a bit. Right now I would call him Kris Dunn lite. Give Baldwin one more year of college, and he might be where Dunn is right now. Dunn is the better finisher and ball handler, but Baldwin is the more consistent outside shooter. I could certainly live with him depending on the type of offense the Kings are going to run. Right now, I think Baldwin may be a better off the ball player, and if what you expect of him is what the Kings used to expect from Mike Bibby, he'll be fine.
I agree with you, I think with Baldwin it will depent on how the team that drafts him will use him. If you expect him to be your lead guard and run your offense through him he will struggle. But if you run an offense where you get him off the ball as well and let him use his athleticism by attacking of secondary actions I can see him being succesful. For example the Princeton Offense or an inside-out motion offense should highlight his strenghts (spot shooting, athleticism, passing) and hide his weaknesses (creating, finishing against a set defense). Im pretty optimistic that Jorger would know how to use him the right way if we drafted him
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Baldwin is a fine prospect but projects as a backup PG who'd be quite a reach at 8. I like his defensive potential (6'11" wingspan) and 3P shooting capability, but he's got some big issues (which may not be fixable) in scoring inside the arc/handling the rock and is only an average passer. A nice backup for a team needing 3P shooting and defense off the bench, maybe a secondary PG, but not the Kings, who need starters.
I haven't heard or read that Baldwin projects as anything. He's a prospect, and how good he'll be in the future is anyone's guess. I doubt anyone thought Jimmy Butler would be who he turned out to be, and if the draft was done over, he'd be right at the top of that draft. If you trust your scouts, and your own ability to judge talent, and you think Baldwin is good enough to be chosen with the eighth pick, then you take him there. Hell, these mock drafts are all over the place so what does it matter where they project someone?
 
Nice to see Baldwin working out for us.
Mike Bratz said that the top prospects are hard to workout at #8 because their agents dont want it to look like they would fall. Our reputation doesnt help either. But as Baldwin is not considered a top prospect it makes sense for him to workout for us. If Dunn is gone and if we dont like whoever oft the "consensus top 8 players" falls Baldwin is a good back up plan. Either we just pick him at #8 or we trade down a few spots and pick up another asset along the way.
After the last workout, when Bratz was answering questions, Ham asked about moving around in the draft, and Mike's reaction was instant "I can't comment on that", so, I believe, moving down is a very real possibility.
Latest draftexpress mock has us taking Murray. Honestly this mock is one I can definitely see happening. A lot of what has been discussed lately is represented in this mock. Also idc if Murray refuses to work out for us. If he's there at 8 he better start scouting homes in Sac.
Yeah, let's get a guard, who will need hiding on D: you can never have enough of those.
Baldwin is a fine prospect but projects as a backup PG who'd be quite a reach at 8. I like his defensive potential (6'11" wingspan) and 3P shooting capability, but he's got some big issues (which may not be fixable) in scoring inside the arc/handling the rock and is only an average passer. A nice backup for a team needing 3P shooting and defense off the bench, maybe a secondary PG, but not the Kings, who need starters.
In a league, where Pat Beverley, George Hill and 31-y.o. Deron Williams with vanished athleticism are starters on PO teams, Baldwin is certainly not a projected bench player.
You need to look a bit deeper, at circumstances: Baldwin is going Westbrook route (let's get it out of the way: no one in this draft have Russ' speed, Wade included). Baldwin played his HS career as a slashing/defending SG, then for 1.5 years in college he shared PG duties with the guy, who was recruited as a PG in the same class, and only was main creator for a half of this season. His per 100 possessions stats from Conference play this year: 26.1p(.547TS%)+10.6a(4.7TOs) compared to Dunn's 26.2p(.532TS%)+9.6a(6.4TOs).
Due to the way he went through, Baldwin is still almost exclusively looking for his own shot late in the clock, sometimes missing open teammates. He also relies too much on attacking, when shooting is such an efficient weapon for him, though despite low percentages at the rim, Wade created havoc out there with almost stupid FTA/2ptFGA above 1.00 in Conference play. Not even Jimmy Butler, who didn't have outside shot to rely on and had to attack, attack, attack in Marquette, was able to cross that line, only getting to 0.99 as a junior. Which bring us to the final point: Baldwin is 20-y.o. sophomore, which is 2 years younger than Dunn, who just needs polishing and guidance. Due to his versatility Baldwin should probably start his career off the bench next to another combo-guard.
P.S. People, who get excited about Denzel's combination of shooting and playmaking, should be all over Baldwin, since he has the same traits, only with athleticism to actually use his passing at the next level and be a defensive presence.
P.S. 2 Baldwin does have a couple of problems with his shooting: "dips", bring the ball down, too much and doesn't use full extension, which forces him to pass on some shots or lead to uncomfortable heaves. Both are very much correctable issues, since he has shooting motion and balance/body motion locked up.
 
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Not surprised at all with potential interest in Baldwin. I flagged him as a possible pick for us a while ago. Great size for a PG, solid shooter, passer, defender. Hasn't played as a PG for long so potential is there. Handle needs some work and his ability to finish in the paint needs to get better.

Having said that, if we really are going down the Princeton Offense path again, Baldwin is a solid fit.
 
For those of you who have never heard of Baldwin, here is a great breakdown by David Locke(Jazz Radio play by play):

However, biggest thing I felt like he missed on was Baldwin's inability to finish around the rim. I believe he only finishes at the rim around 50%. He does a very good job getting to the rim and drawing fouls, but he needs to work on his finishing.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
The thing with Baldwin that I like is that he's projected to have the potential to be a lockdown defender......key word is potential but that is an area we need help in. None of the picks at 8 are going to be complete players so if you are telling me we can get a guy that can step in and contribute, like WCS last year, I'm down with that.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, let's get a guard, who will need hiding on D: you can never have enough of those.

You need to look a bit deeper, at circumstances: Baldwin is going Westbrook route (let's get it out of the way: no one in this draft have Russ' speed, Wade included). Baldwin played his HS career as a slashing/defending SG, then for 1.5 years in college he shared PG duties with the guy, who was recruited as a PG in the same class, and only was main creator for a half of this season. His per 100 possessions stats from Conference play this year: 26.1p(.547TS%)+10.6a(4.7TOs) compared to Dunn's 26.2p(.532TS%)+9.6a(6.4TOs).
Due to the way he went through, Baldwin is still almost exclusively looking for his own shot late in the clock, sometimes missing open teammates. He also relies too much on attacking, when shooting is such an efficient weapon for him, though despite low percentages at the rim, Wade created havoc out there with almost stupid FTA/2ptFGA above 1.00 in Conference play. Not even Jimmy Butler, who didn't have outside shot to rely on and had to attack, attack, attack in Marquette, was able to cross that line, only getting to 0.99 as a junior. Which bring us to the final point: Baldwin is 20-y.o. sophomore, which is 2 years younger than Dunn, who just needs polishing and guidance. Due to his versatility Baldwin should probably start his career off the bench next to another combo-guard.
P.S. People, who get excited about Denzel's combination of shooting and playmaking, should be all over Baldwin, since he has the same traits, only with athleticism to actually use his passing at the next level and be a defensive presence.
P.S. 2 Baldwin does have a couple of problems with his shooting: "dips", bring the ball down, too much and doesn't use full extension, which forces him to pass on some shots or lead to uncomfortable heaves. Both are very much correctable issues, since he has shooting motion and balance/body motion locked up.
Loved watching Valentine in college but I have real concerns with him on the next level. Even after four years under Izzo he was a poor defender who needed to be hidden. I think he's best off going to a team where he can be a playmaker with the second unit and who have a very solid team defense. Utah and San Antonio immediately come to mind.

I'm not as concerned about Murray. He'll struggle defensively, isn't a high level athlete with good burst and is a bit undersized at the 2 but those are the same concerns I had with D'angelo Russell. Like Russell I don't know that Murray will be a star but I think he'll find his spot in the NBA. I like his maturity and steady hand quite a bit already and he often jumped off the screen with what he could do offensively when I watched Kentucky games. He's not my ideal fit for the Kings but I wouldn't be upset if he were the guy.

I am a Baldwin fan and have been for quite a while. I'd obviously rather have Dunn but Baldwin at 8 wouldn't be a disaster to me and in a trade down scenario I'd really be on board. However, I do think Baldwin's best fit would really be as a somewhat "3&D PG" next to a dominant offensive SG who can also pass like Jimmy Butler or James Harden. Of course you want Baldwin doing some playmaking too because it's a pretty strong part of his game.

However, biggest thing I felt like he missed on was Baldwin's inability to finish around the rim. I believe he only finishes at the rim around 50%. He does a very good job getting to the rim and drawing fouls, but he needs to work on his finishing.
I think what Baldwin needs to work on more is his handle. I don't see anything physically that stops him from being shiftier or turning the corner more. But he's got a very high dribble and really only a basic crossover in terms of moves to open space or get by his man. He may never get there but if he could really work on his ballhandling I think that would get him to the rim easier and help his finishing once he's there. Because right now he finishes best in transition when he can attack the basket on straight line drives and he has the ability to cover a ton of ground with just two steps but when things get more crowded he doesn't move well enough with the ball in space to get to the cup and it leads to him throwing up a fair amount of off balance shots.
 
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For those of you who have never heard of Baldwin, here is a great breakdown by David Locke(Jazz Radio play by play):

However, biggest thing I felt like he missed on was Baldwin's inability to finish around the rim. I believe he only finishes at the rim around 50%. He does a very good job getting to the rim and drawing fouls, but he needs to work on his finishing.
Well this video did not give me any warm and fuzzies.
 
Barring a huge leap of faith I would be more excited about what we got by trading down for him. I see/hear fringe starter. If Rondo's gone as I feel he will be and DC misses games then it's probably a direction they'll look at.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I've read of Sac attending some workouts at other places....can't recall who it was that they were watching but they haven't seen too many of the supposed top 10 guys.
Vlade, Peja and Bratz were in LA for a multi player workout. They were in Las Vegas for one and also attended one in New York. For the past week they've been over in Europe. They've seen these players numerous times, so I don't think there's anything they're missing.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
If national media is to be believed, Sacramento is at the absolute bottom of the list of preferred NBA destinations for rookies and agents are doing their best to steer their clients anywhere else.

I'm guessing that's not too far off from the truth and a result of over a decade of losing and chaotic/horrible management.

Obviously that would all change quickly if the team started winning, but right now I'm not sure how likely a turnaround of this team is.
I remember once before when the Kings were in the exact same situation. We traded for a player named Chris Webber, who refused to come here because of our reputation. Petrie told him he could play for us, or he could play for no one. His choice! Of course he eventually came and the rest is history. So your right, winning is a sure cure.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
After the last workout, when Bratz was answering questions, Ham asked about moving around in the draft, and Mike's reaction was instant "I can't comment on that", so, I believe, moving down is a very real possibility.
Yeah, let's get a guard, who will need hiding on D: you can never have enough of those.
In a league, where Pat Beverley, George Hill and 31-y.o. Deron Williams with vanished athleticism are starters on PO teams, Baldwin is certainly not a projected bench player.
You need to look a bit deeper, at circumstances: Baldwin is going Westbrook route (let's get it out of the way: no one in this draft have Russ' speed, Wade included). Baldwin played his HS career as a slashing/defending SG, then for 1.5 years in college he shared PG duties with the guy, who was recruited as a PG in the same class, and only was main creator for a half of this season. His per 100 possessions stats from Conference play this year: 26.1p(.547TS%)+10.6a(4.7TOs) compared to Dunn's 26.2p(.532TS%)+9.6a(6.4TOs).
Due to the way he went through, Baldwin is still almost exclusively looking for his own shot late in the clock, sometimes missing open teammates. He also relies too much on attacking, when shooting is such an efficient weapon for him, though despite low percentages at the rim, Wade created havoc out there with almost stupid FTA/2ptFGA above 1.00 in Conference play. Not even Jimmy Butler, who didn't have outside shot to rely on and had to attack, attack, attack in Marquette, was able to cross that line, only getting to 0.99 as a junior. Which bring us to the final point: Baldwin is 20-y.o. sophomore, which is 2 years younger than Dunn, who just needs polishing and guidance. Due to his versatility Baldwin should probably start his career off the bench next to another combo-guard.
P.S. People, who get excited about Denzel's combination of shooting and playmaking, should be all over Baldwin, since he has the same traits, only with athleticism to actually use his passing at the next level and be a defensive presence.
P.S. 2 Baldwin does have a couple of problems with his shooting: "dips", bring the ball down, too much and doesn't use full extension, which forces him to pass on some shots or lead to uncomfortable heaves. Both are very much correctable issues, since he has shooting motion and balance/body motion locked up.
Hey! You are absolutely 100% spot on. Right now today, Dunn is the best PG in this draft. But long term, Baldwin may end up being the better player. Both players have the ability to defend well. Both guys will need a period of adjustment, so your right, the perfect scenario for Baldwin would be to back up a more experienced player.
 
Workout video from today:


Next workout is tomorrow:
  • Elgin Cook (F – 6’6” 212 lbs.) Oregon
  • Isaiah Taylor (G – 6’3” 170 lbs.) Texas
  • Jarrod Uthoff (F – 6’9” 221 lbs.) Iowa
  • Shaquille Harrison (G – 6’4” 189 lbs.) Tulsa
  • Derrick Jones (F – 6’6” 185 lbs.) UNLV
  • Shonn Miller (F – 6’7” 209 lbs.) UCONN
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
watched a bit of Cook and Taylor in college. Cook can jump, he is a good athlete. Taylor might have a place in the league, needs to pack on some more weight...170 for a 6'3 frame, yikes!
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've posted a few scenarios where Kris Dunn falls to the Kings but in all reality I think he's off the board well before the 8th pick. In fact, I think Minnesota is set to draft him but my feeling is that the Celtics will trade the 3rd pick to Philadelphia for Okafor and the Sixers will draft Dunn.

Ingram looks like he will grow into an ideal modern NBA small forward with shooting, length and defense and he's much more plug and play (or will be when he fills out some and adjusts to the NBA game) but Simmons is just such an interesting talent that he's probably worth reshaping the roster around, especially for a 10 win team with a bunch of draft picks and tons of caproom.

If they like Simmons I'd move Okafor (I don't see those two working well together at all - the ball dominant, non-shooting post big who thrives in the half court and the ball-dominant, non shooting forward who really needs to play uptempo to be effective) and Simmons is a better fit for Brett Brown's fast moving offensive principles.

Dunn at 3 would be good value though a shooter like Murray actually makes a bit more sense. Either way, there would be additional wing players that would help still on the board at #24 & #26 with guys like Prince, Beasley, Bembry, Levert, McCaw and even possibly Valentine or Dejounte Murray.

Point being - I don't see Boston taking Bender or Chriss. I see a trade of that pick, likely to grab Dunn, likely from Philadelphia but possibly from another team - maybe Chicago if they really are looking to move Butler.

PHI - Simmons
LAL - Ingram
??? - Dunn
PHX - Bender? Chriss? Brown? Trade?
MIN - Murray
NOP - Hield
DEN - Bender or Brown?
SAC - ???

Maybe they go Chriss or Baldwin. Or perhaps it's Brown that slips. He scares me but he would also open up the option of dealing Rudy for a SG and/or a draft pick, letting Omri start and developing Brown behind him.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
 
When I first saw the Chriss hype machine start my thought was "great - that will push a real prospect to us". But now I'm wondering if he is maybe legit and we should be happy to get him at 8.

I'm about the 98th most smart guy on here when it comes to college prospects - no inside knowledge. But from what I've read, the draft is a good 8+ deep and we stand to get a real good player there with Chriss being the worst of them... unless Vlade decides to promote Baldwin above all the mocks and grab him at 8. And I won't kill him if he does that but he will get killed in the press probably.

A mock I read today had us with Dunn but that just sounds too good to be true for us I'm not counting on it
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
I believe Chriss does not go in top 8. I think it was early hype. Right now Baldwin has helium but I think his ceiling is 8. Kyler only posts when he has clear knowledge. The guys he talks to has Brown at 3. With Baldwin in the mix I feel good about our pick whomever it is