George Karl's Wild Ride

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1) Isn't that why we signed Kosta Koufos to a 4 year deal?! He's missed a lot of point blank layups and hook shots so far but the fact that he's taking those shots at all is at least encouraging. He should be playing every minute that DeMarcus is on the bench.

2) Like hell he's not. He's one of the best in the league at delivering the ball to the post. More structure would help reduce some of the head scratching turnovers. Maybe you think his inability to shoot makes halfcourt offense untenable or something but I would have thought 4 All Star selections with Boston and his respectable shooting this season would have dispelled some of that. In any case, he's an expiring contact. If it can't work, find someone else.

3) That's just like your opinion man :)

1. No. I am pretty sure Divac and Karl do not expect Koufos to be anything more than a solid backup. Koufos cannot handle double teams and he does not move the ball like Cousins. You are not going to have much success using a pound the ball to Koufos strategy. It can work in spurts, but not a long term solution.

2. Rondo is not that type of PG. You're not going to have too much success having a non-shooter space the floor, and even worse you want to put him on the same side as Cousins so the guard can easily slack off of Rondo and double team the post, and a quick pass back to the perimeter results in Rondo taking a long two or a three because other defenders can stay home and stick to our players. This system essentially get you mostly one of two shots 1) Cousins shooting against double/triple teams or 2) Rondo shooting jump shots. Yes, Cousins can score with two guys hanging on him and Rondo is capable of knocking down jumpers, but why? We are getting better shots than that now.

3. I know right. It's not like we've never tried pounding the ball to Cousins right? Just look at the success we had. Oh wait.

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Er.. 0-3 I think:

We showed we can be much better than .500.

In part because it fits Cousins, RUDY, and Rondo won a chip playing that way. Koufos is also the sort of low skill meat and potatoes big guy who thrives in that style. The only personnel obviously better suited for a running game would be Ben and Willie.
I agree it certainly fits Cousins, if we have better shooters it could work. Unfortunately, we have only one player in the starting lineup shooting better than 35% from threes. Basically this system forces Casspi to be a starter and I'm not sure that's a good idea considering the the player (Gay or WSC) that he'll be replacing. If we get Ryan Anderson and Anthony Morrow on the team, then I say let's do it. Until then....

The Celtics played a lot of side pick and pop with Rondo and KG, and they also ran a lot. They were never about pounding the ball inside.
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2) Like hell he's not. He's one of the best in the league at delivering the ball to the post. More structure would help reduce some of the head scratching turnovers. Maybe you think his inability to shoot makes halfcourt offense untenable or something but I would have thought 4 All Star selections with Boston and his respectable shooting this season would have dispelled some of that. In any case, he's an expiring contact. If it can't work, find someone else.
Just for fun, here is every possessions where Rondo delivered the ball to Cousins in the post for the Hawks game. Here are the results (bolded is where the Kings got a positive result):

1st

11:30 – Lob to Cousins for uncontested basket.

5:40 – Cousins lost handle. TO.

4:27 – Sefolosha late in double teaming, Cousins scored.

3:12 – Cousins shot blocked by Splitter.

2:49 – Defensive three seconds violation.



2nd

5:03 – Cousin scored against double team.

4:10 – Cousins double teamed, quick pass back to Rondo who missed a midrange floater.

2:13 – Cousins double teamed, quick pass to Rondo who drop off to Koufos who missed the shot.



3rd

11:52 – Cousins fouled by Korver. Non-shooting.

10:05 – Cousins shot blocked by Horford.

9:30 – Korver late in double teaming, Cousins drew a shooting foul.

9:07 – Ally hoop basket to Cousins

7:58 – Cousins drew double team, kick out to BMac, pass to Rondo for contested jump shot. Missed.



4th

9:08 – Cousins missed point blank shot against double team.

8:55 – Cousins shot blocked by Horford.

7:41 – Cousins pinned Horford under basket and scored.

6:52 – Ball poked away from Cousins. TO.

3:27 – Cousins double teamed. Quick past back to Rondo for a contested jump shot. Missed.

1:45 – fastbreak. Cousin scored by pinning his man under the basket.

0:12 – Cousin caught ball and dropped off to Rondo for a layup.


If you eliminate the fastbreak points, the success rate of Rondo passing to Cousins in the post is 38.8% in this game. Considering the Kings shot 35.9% in this game, I guess on the surface it can look like a bit of an "best of the worse" type play but consider this:

- As I predicted, over 80% of this play ends up with Cousins shooting against a double team or Rondo taking a contested jump shot. Neither of which is the most ideal shot. However, the worse part is that other player are rarely involved. Few even get the chance to touch the ball. This is a problem - this play is a ball movement stopper. While it does seem to cut down on TOs. It also stops ball movement.

- The Hawks used Korver and Sefolosha to guard Rondo specifically because they are to leave Rondo (as soon as the entry pass is made) and double team Cousins. Having them guard Rondo means the double team can come very quickly and Cousins had a lot of problem with that. Only one time is he able to score against the double team.

- When it was Casspi or McLenmore who made the entry passes, their defenders had to stick with them, and the double team had to come from the weak side. Which took a split second longer and gave Cousins more time and room to operate.

- Essentially it means that the entry passes is much more effective when it is a shooter who made it. Often times, Casspi or McLenmore would make the entry passes and move to the opposite side's corner, taking the defenders with them and giving Cousins the entire side of the floor to operate against single coverage (for only a second or so but that's all the time he needed). And it appears Cousins is much more effective this way.

- Finally, despite the outcry of people who say things to the contrary, Rondo pounding the ball to Cousins IS a common play. It's doesn't happen every time down the floor, but it looks like every 2 or 3 plays the Kings would run that.
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gunks

Hall of Famer
Get this man a defense oriented assistant coach and we're cool.

Our offense is a thing of beauty. He's playing Cuz inside more. Going big, rather than small, lately with good results.

Maybe it's just taking the old man longer to figure out a roster these days, but we're looking good.

Our perimeter defense is still awful though. We need to stop sagging off the 3pt line. Our bigs can handle the paint.
 
What is everyone's current opinion of George Karl?
I'm reading many KF's thinking he deserves credit for the Kings' turn-around, and I just don't agree.

In fact - this pushback to give Karl credit is starting to nauseate me.
Karl has done crap most of the year.
Seriously, Rondo or any of the assistants could have done a better job than Karl so far.
What does Karl get credit for lately? The wins?
Please.

He has only done what any number of us would have done, and simply played more of Willie and less of the damn smallball lately, combined with the players deciding they wanted to play harder.

That has NOTHING to do with the coach, and everything to do with the players.

The Kings have won many of these games despite Karl getting in the way with his absurd 2-PG lineup (which still doesn't work) and his 3-guard lineups (which still don't work, and are getting more undefendable every game that Marco stinks up the court).

The ONLY thing I grant Karl this year, including during this 2016 run, is the playcalls at the end of games after timeouts.
And I think it's more likely that Rondo or an assistant coach is coming up with those, based on what Karl himself said earlier this year. He delegated that part of the coaching really early in the year.
Everything Karl seems to be in charge of (starting lineups, substitutions, timeouts, media interviews) have been routinely horrid, still.
The man barely strings together a coherent thought, is frequently delusional, won't admit where he is mistaken, and sounds like he can barely hold on a conversation without fits of coughing and wheezing.

It does not take a genius to coach this team - not with Rondo out there running the plays, and even (likely) drawing up offensive and defensive plays and calling out the opponent's playsets, and directing traffic on the court, and verbalizing the plays, and bringing up stuff in the video sessions.......

...seriously, it's highly likely Karl is doing very little for his substantial paycheck.
 
What a canard.

Many of us have been railing against the exact things that Karl has been doing wrong all season - the horrid substitutions, nonexistent timeouts, wrong personnel (especially favoring vets when they aren't earning their minutes), offensive sets that don't utilize Demarcus properly, proven bad defensive schemes which set the players up to fail, all while Karl blames the players for not being able to play the anachronistic scheme, etc.

These problems haven't gone away - the team has just won despite them lately.

But go ahead and reduce these ongoing issues down to a pithy, inapplicable phrase, sure. :rolleyes:
 
Demarcus seems to be doing ok recently, you basically used the "pithy, inapplicable" phrase yourself twice, you said he doesn't deserve any credit for this "turnaround" so basically we've won 5 in a row in spite of Karl.

I don't think Karl is the right coach for this team myself, said it many times, but I do believe deserves credit for keeping a pretty combustable group together up to this point.

there's a long long long way to go anyway, I'd still be very surprised if this team can cling on to that 8th seed, but I really hope they do.
 
I have been hard on Karl when we were losing. Now I love him because we're winning. That's why I don't want to be a head coach of a major league sport - it has gotta suck bad.

What if, just what if... Karl is a great coach and got all those career wins by being a great coach. Maybe even if he goes to the edge of tweaking his players egos & feelings - in the end it comes out right somehow and they win.

What if he's helped bring Boogie to another level by opening his mind somewhat at the expense of hurting his feelings?

What if he's the only one with the kind of ego-touch that would bring out every bit of Rondo potential?

What if holding back the reins on WCS was for some kind of reason - maybe he was bad at learning the playbook, maybe he transgressed behind the scenes and minutes on the floor was a carrot to get him tracked right?

What if Karl's approach is the only one that lights up a guy like Omri & Quincy?

The thing is, I remember back in the day when everyone would monday morning QB Rick Adelman to death, it's what fans do. Drove me crazy back then - but bottom line we are always going to have tactical and strategic bones to pick with the head coach whether it is Karl, Thibs, Corbin, or somebody else. We keep score of head coach success by whether they win.

Right now, imo, George has SCOREBOARD. Things are coming together with the core he started the season with and the team looks like they might be on pace to be peaking at exactly the right time. I think the team's record and position in the standings right now is more than most people legitimately expected.

But ok bottom line - he's winning so I'm happy. I loved Malone as much or more than the next guy but it is no certainty that the team would be better off had we kept him. Karl is winning, Mike ain't.

By the way I'd really love to hear Karl's side of the story on WCS minutes from the start of the year, but I'm sure we never will.
I think there's no doubt that Karl has ego issues, reluctance to play rookies and generally wants to play uptempo, sometimes at the cost of good defense. He's no perfect coach and he's made and will continue to make mistakes and decisions that leave us fans yelling, but his career record shows that he's a pretty darn good one, and as you rightly pointed out there is no perfect coach out there. He's now got a better winning % than Malone did here, matched Malone's 9-6 stretch and has us in the playoff hunt. Cousins, Rondo and Omri are beasting this season. Philosophies aside, for all the complaining about Karl and the bemoaning of the loss of Malone, we're now in every bit as good a position as Malone ever had the team in. I've always said that it should ultimately come down to wins, and as of late, Karl has this team winning.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
...seriously, it's highly likely Karl is doing very little for his substantial paycheck.
See, this is the danger of stewing on something too long. It starts with the idea that Karl isn't the best possible coach for Cousins. This gets watered and fertilized and it grows into the idea that Karl isn't even a good coach at all (despite his HOF-worthy career). A bit more time and bit more sunshine and fully blossoms into the idea that not only is Karl a poor coach, but that he's not even working, he's just collecting a paycheck.

Bottom line, if you don't follow him around 24/7 checking on his work habits, don't accuse him of not doing any work. Just because you imagine it, doesn't make it true.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
People forget all the errors Malone made. His substitutions were confusing. His timeouts were confusing. His 9-6 record however qualified him for sainthood.. Karl has now achieved the same and I am not as irked by his substitutions in 2016 and his use of time outs. To say that Karl has nothing to do with the present is absurd. He has changed his entire coaching philosophy to match the Kings' talent. His vocal chords have been fried from radiation treatment of cancer. I don't understand why that is held against him. His vocal chords get fried or he dies. Boogie seems to like him. Certainly Rondo can't complain. That's not the way it all started. He conceded to them as a good coach should do. He didn't have to. I don't get how a head coach gets no credit. Absurd. He is like a diver trying a hugely complex dive (the change to using bigs a lot) and succeeding at it. What more does he have to do?

He bent over backwards for Boogie and Rondo. He didn't have to. It turns out it was great for the team. He still controls who plays. He has mentioned defense from the start. Most of us derided him for that as we saw no defense. Now we are seeing defense. Why doesn't he get credit? This conversation is bizarre.
 
i've been as big a critic as any of george karl's brief tenure thus far in sacramento, but he certainly deserves plenty of credit for this excellent stretch of kings basketball; he has made very visible adjustments in strategy across the last couple of weeks: he's playing willie significantly more minutes, he's shifted demarcus away from the perimeter and emphasized punishing, post-heavy offensive sets, he's relying on rondo/collison-led lineups less often, and he's playing bigger lineups overall. perhaps most importantly, though, these adjustments have led to a massive uptick in defensive focus, defensive energy, and defensive efficiency...

the kings have been fun to watch on both sides of the ball in january. they're still playing a bit faster than i would like (the resulting turnovers remain a problem), they're still switching in foolish situations on the perimeter, and i still think marco's being given too long of a leash, but i've seen enough evidence to convince me that, if the team is giving consistent effort, they can be a genuine middle-of-the-pack playoff squad, rather than a hapless 8th seed. i don't mind a team that plays fast as long as they play under control and as long as they play defense, and if karl can milk any amount of consistency from this team on the defensive end, then he gets my vote of confidence. i'm not ready to say that he's the capital-A "Answer." after all, it's taken a herculean month from big cuz and a surprising impact from a rookie fresh off a six-week absence just to get the kings to this point. but the signs are absolutely encouraging, nonetheless...
 
Demarcus seems to be doing ok recently, you basically used the "pithy, inapplicable" phrase yourself twice, you said he doesn't deserve any credit for this "turnaround" so basically we've won 5 in a row in spite of Karl.

I don't think Karl is the right coach for this team myself, said it many times, but I do believe deserves credit for keeping a pretty combustable group together up to this point.

there's a long long long way to go anyway, I'd still be very surprised if this team can cling on to that 8th seed, but I really hope they do.
That's why we're gonna end up with the #6 seed and a first-round dance with the Thunder. Why settle for less!? This team is hungry
 
This argument turned silly. Is Cuz finally controlling his emotions and buying into the system, or did Karl finally swallow his pride and started coaching the way we wanted him to? The answer is yes, both deserve tremendous credit, but really - it's all thanks to Vlade. As long as we have him as our GM, this franchise is going places.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
I dunno....

I'm kinda with Ifat1st here.

Karl is FINALLY doing all the things that even the most casual of Kingsfan has been clamoring for all season.

It shouldn't take a HOFer genius this long to figure out that the league's most dominant post player belongs in the post, not hovering at the 3pt line.

It shouldn't take a HOFer genius to this long to figure out that this roster isn't built for small ball, Rudy is a 3, and the Rondo/DC back court pairing sucks.

It shouldn't take a HOFer genius this long to figure out our rookie is an IMPACT defender (although, to be fair, WCS was hurt).

We're STILL playing too fast. That tires out our star player, and more often than not it leads to TOs, rather than fast break points.

Ben is coming around, but Marco Brickinelli is still getting the lion's share of the minutes.

We're still giving up way too many 3s with his weird sag into helping the interior defenders system.



Now, with all that being said....I'm definitely 100 percent against firing the guy. We're rolling. Our offense is a thing of beauty. And Karl seems to be coming out of his dementia haze and figuring out our roster. Hell, I wasn't really for firing him early on, it just seemed like a necessity because his coaching was so GAWD DANG AWFUL.

But anyways....Yeah. We're looking good. Stay of execution.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
People have got to let go of the Karl thing to this degree:

Its working to some degree, and the team is buying in to some degree. It would be virtually impossible to see the improving results we are seeing if the above things are not true.

Karl has also:
1) handed over the team to Rondo
2) instituted a defined and consistent 9 man rotation. That's a GOOD thing when trying to develop chemistry.
3) we run some great out of timeouts/quarters plays. Maybe the best I have seen from a Kings squad. They make sense, work often.
4) Karl manages Cousins fouls well. Right when Cuz should come out to avoid picking up #3 or #4, he does.
5) He's started to stick up for the team more with technicals and in interviews, promoting Cuz as the best big in the game, WCS as rookie team etc.

Nor has Karl been nearly the disaster he is sometimes portrayed as. He had the potential to be -- indeed when within 4 months of his hiring he opened his mouth and pulled a classic Karl, alienating his franchise player and possibly even trying to get him traded, hey, he could have stumbled off the tower bridge and I wouldn't have even called 911. That was fear #1 with him: still an butthead.

But a funny thing happened on that one, either he got his chain snapped, or Vlade is such a great layer of hands he tamed the savage beast, or maybe the scrappy fight has just gone out of him with age. But whatever it has been, Karl's relatively passive demeanor since that point has largely, when combined with Vlade's constant presence, quelled fears that George is going to screw everything up on a personal level. We're fine there.

The 2nd great fear was that George had no ****ing idea what to do with a great center and just wanted to run, gun, space the floor. That fear too was realized, but I started an early thread on the wacky way it was less disastrous than it could have been, and several of our personnel thrived in it. Just as importantly as the stupid strategy seemed to be beginning to fail, there was a change made. People were too busy panicking to notice it, but by mid December we started seeing more Boogie inside, and really of late he's been putting an entirely acceptable beating on people down in the paint. Again, work in progress, but look what Boogie has done here. He's putting together a month not seen since prime Shaq. We may be ok here as well.

The defense and smallballing, and their relation remain a concern, but of a sudden WCS is back and the team is playing bigger and defending better. We might be heading toward ok on this one too.

No coach is perfect, but like Adelman before him, this old ball coach is a guy who just makes the playoffs, like almost always. Its what he does. And hey, guess what, we are on pace to make the playoffs. The idiocy last year cost us a good young coach, and it cost us a year of beginning to matter. Cousins was ready to start winning, and we ****ed it up. Its taken a full year to get back to that point after the self inflicted wound, but here we are, rolling behind the big guy again. Now is absolutely NOT the time to go **** it up again. That would be ridiculous. Whether you could ever win a title behind Karl or not = who knows. Its so far from important to us right now its really not even a concern. But you can make the playoffs behind him. That's been proven 20 seasons in this league. He's here, and if he's flawed, he's not failing. You gotta come around to that and let this play out. Coaching and whatnot should be addressed in the offseason, not in the middle of a legit playoff chase.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
What a canard.

Many of us have been railing against the exact things that Karl has been doing wrong all season - the horrid substitutions, nonexistent timeouts, wrong personnel (especially favoring vets when they aren't earning their minutes), offensive sets that don't utilize Demarcus properly, proven bad defensive schemes which set the players up to fail, all while Karl blames the players for not being able to play the anachronistic scheme, etc.

These problems haven't gone away - the team has just won despite them lately.

But go ahead and reduce these ongoing issues down to a pithy, inapplicable phrase, sure. :rolleyes:
Just stop. You ASKED the question. People should be able to respond without you going into instant sarcastic mode.
 
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I agree with ifat1st.
Please refer to karls postgame press conference. He got mad when the reporter asked him about bellineli. Then he proceeded to tell us what WCS and Ben did wrong in the 3rd. All without really answering the bellineli question. My own personal opinion is he's just a stubborn old coot who will need to be addressed if we want this team to be consistently good.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
I'd love it if we could bring on a defensive minded assisant coach and have Karl give up on the reigns on the D all together. I like the way our offense is looking, but the defensive strategy has no place in today's 3-point shooting NBA.
Heck yeah, I mentioned this up a few posts when Blatt got fired.

I doubt if we have a decent defensive mind on the bench. Just a bunch of PACE cronies.

Karl's offense is a thing of beauty, I'll give the old codger that.