George Karl's Wild Ride

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dude12

Hall of Famer
#541
#541
There's two ways Vlade can go.....continue to turnover the roster getting guys that would work in Karl's system. Vlade has done a good job with an influx of talent after the deliberate undermining of Malone ( getting nothing back for IT ....smh) and Vlade can keep tinkering while getting guys who can fit Karl's style....

Or

He can dump Karl and land a coach who can work with this roster and play to its strengths for the most success. This team should be flirting with .500 if used correctly. The easiest thing to do would be dumping Karl.

I know pace is the trend right now but the reality is defense has always been an NBA constant.....damn, is there really a sport where it isn't as important as anything. Defense will always help you win. We should be following the Spurs model and not the Warriors model. We just don't have the personnel to be the Warriors. We would have better success trying to emulate the Spurs or Grizz or even the Cavs.
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#542
#542
I want Karl gone, but not just him. I want everyone gone. I would rather start rebuilding now instead of putting it off for the next 2 years. This team will not be successful. They have all the talent in the world, but sometimes you can't force puzzle pieces that don't fit. Cousins isn't a leader, Rudy Gay is a horrible number 2 option, and no one plays defense. How much longer do we continue this failed experiment? I blame Karl for not making it work, but it's not entirely his fault. These guys just don't work well together. I just would rather start fresh.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#544
#544
Firing Karl in mid season would make this team more of a joke than it already is. We've been to this rodeo before where a new coach comes in during mid-season, and it's not going to work. What is this hero going to do? - change the entire offensive scheme in mid-season? That would be totally throwing in the towel and the players would know it. How is an assistant that becomes coach supposed to have the authority to do anything on this team? If the HOFer Karl can't make them listen, how in hell can an assistant make them listen? And why should any coach with head coaching experience not strapped to a bed in an insane asylum come to this team in mid-season when he can see the result of what happened last year? Oh yeah, he's the guy that's going to set it all right. And he'll tell you bedtime stories too. Forget about it. If this ship goes down, it should go down with the current cast of characters. If Vlade makes this change in mid-season, then that halo he's been wearing is going to vaporize; he's going to be linked to the decade-long dysfunction of this organization: Another season, another coach; another season, another losing season; another season, another coaching change in mid-season; another season, another Sacto GM who has no idea what he's doing; how 'bout those Sacramento Kings? He won't be seen as the savior, as the guy who is going to set things right. He'll just be seen as just another one of the Sacramento Kings fools' brigade.
 
beb0p

beb0p

Starter
#546
#546
hrdboild said:
Even when we win nobody looks all that happy. Imagine you go in to work every day for a boss you can't stand. I imagine your productivity might suffer a bit. This is no different. Ultimately it is on the players to play better but it also should be the goal of the organization to help make these players' lives easier if possible, because winning helps everybody make money.
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If guys don't want to play for a future HOF coach who wants to run and get easy baskets, then I don't know there exists a system that could excite the players.

Coach: Guys, we will slow it down, pound inside, keep the score down, drag it out, and everyone (except Boogie and Gay) will be lucky to score double digits.

Players: Yay!!! I don't like shooting the ball anyway!!

.....................
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#547
#547
beb0p said:
If guys don't want to play for a future HOF coach who wants to run and get easy baskets, then I don't know there exists a system that could excite the players.

Coach: Guys, we will slow it down, pound inside, keep the score down, drag it out, and everyone (except Boogie and Gay) will be lucky to score double digits.

Players: Yay!!! I don't like shooting the ball anyway!!

.....................
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, that's precisely where you would find a lot of the league's tougher players existing. Where do you think the Tony Allens of the world hang out? Its a sweet thing to walk out on that floor feeling like you're going to war, and that you're going to give the other team hell.

Far too many guys who like to run and score are just glory hounds looking for the easy way out. The grind is not in their personality. If you're looking for effort every night, get a group of scrappers, not fliers.

In any case for us we, amongst other things, have an identity crisis. We're playing at a pace likely uncomfortable for our core personnel.
 
Albatros

Albatros

Starter
#548
#548
IfAt1st said:
Well, it sucks that this is going down just as I predicted. :(

One thing needs to be said, though -
I believe this team would play better and much harder if they removed George Karl and replaced him with a coke machine.
Seriously.

The "relationship" between Karl/system and the players seems so toxic that if they announced Elmer Fudd as the Interim Sacramento Kings coach, this team could very likely go on a tear and get into the playoffs.
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Ty Corbin might be someone that could get this team playing! oh.. maybe not.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#549
#549
beb0p said:
If guys don't want to play for a future HOF coach who wants to run and get easy baskets, then I don't know there exists a system that could excite the players.

Coach: Guys, we will slow it down, pound inside, keep the score down, drag it out, and everyone (except Boogie and Gay) will be lucky to score double digits.

Players: Yay!!! I don't like shooting the ball anyway!!

.....................
Click to expand...
Not every player wants to run and fire up shots. I think the best players care more about winning than how many shots they take. Karl's version of the situation is that he's got a bunch of lazy players who don't like running and don't like playing defense. It's also possible that these players don't think they can win this way, they don't like the switching zone defense, and that's why they're resisting his system and playing poorly.

George Karl has gotten a lot of mileage out of having the "hall of famer" tag attached to his name. I supported hiring him last December only because I didn't want to see us waste a whole season. When it got to the All Star break I would have preferred we waited and interviewed candidates. I've liked Nate McMillan for awhile and he's still available. I wanted Tom Thibodeau even before he went to Chicago and won a Coach of the Year award. Both are better suited for a system built around a ground-bound center and a wing who gets most of his offense inside the arc. PDA was the one obsessed with pace and he's gone now. It's really pretty simple. I want Vlade to pick a coach who wants to work with the roster he assembled rather than a HOF legend who complains about it. It has to be a partnership.

And if you do get a coach in here who wants to pound the ball inside and run the offense primarily through DeMarcus and Rudy like Mike Malone did, you only have to worry about if the team is winning or not. Then you trade whoever isn't on board. Who are the possible suspects anyway? Ben and Willie don't shoot much now. Rondo would rather pass. It's only Marco, Darren, and Omri who might see their individual stats suffer. I'm fairly sure Omri would be on board. Marco and Darren are on short tradeable deals.

Here's a thought: Memphis needs offense. Marco for Tony Allen. Omri and Ben have been better shooters this year anyway, give them Marco's shots. We'd have the perimeter defender we need off the bench. Karl has to go first though. He would never play Tony Allen.
 
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Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#550
#550
Here's the thing: Karl was a very good coach at one point in his career. So was Don Nelson.

Don Nelson ended his NBA tenure with a Don Quixote-esque quest to "revolutionize" by simply outscoring his opponents with utterly ridiculous paceball and utterly inept roster management. George Karl appears to be careening down the same path.
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#551
#551
Tetsujin said:
Here's the thing: Karl was a very good coach at one point in his career. So was Don Nelson.

Don Nelson ended his NBA tenure with a Don Quixote-esque quest to "revolutionize" by simply outscoring his opponents with utterly ridiculous paceball and utterly inept roster management. George Karl appears to be careening down the same path.
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Funnily enough, that's the style of offense that has made them so great today. They just got the right defense and personnel going.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#552
#552
Im Still Ballin said:
Funnily enough, that's the style of offense that has made them so great today. They just got the right defense and personnel going.
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Not really. Steve Kerr's scheme comes out of the Mike D'Antoni Run-and-Gun ball movement oriented tree while Don Nelson's offensive scheme was largely haphazard sprints up and down the floor and horrible shots taken quickly. They're both fast-paced systems but the Kerr system is largely built around getting their best player in the position to do the most damage and building off of that (just as it was in Phoenix with Nash under the same system) whereas Nellieball was largely built around Don Nelson's fat ego and devotion to simply outscoring the other team at all costs (we saw this in the Keith Smart era).
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#553
#553
Tetsujin said:
Not really. Steve Kerr's scheme comes out of the Mike D'Antoni Run-and-Gun ball movement oriented tree while Don Nelson's offensive scheme was largely haphazard sprints up and down the floor and horrible shots taken quickly. They're both fast-paced systems but the Kerr system is largely built around getting their best player in the position to do the most damage and building off of that (just as it was in Phoenix with Nash under the same system) whereas Nellieball was largely built around Don Nelson's fat ego and devotion to simply outscoring the other team at all costs (we saw this in the Keith Smart era).
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:)
 
beb0p

beb0p

Starter
#554
#554
Bricklayer said:
Oddly enough, that's precisely where you would find a lot of the league's tougher players existing. Where do you think the Tony Allens of the world hang out? Its a sweet thing to walk out on that floor feeling like you're going to war, and that you're going to give the other team hell.

Far too many guys who like to run and score are just glory hounds looking for the easy way out. The grind is not in their personality. If you're looking for effort every night, get a group of scrappers, not fliers.

In any case for us we, amongst other things, have an identity crisis. We're playing at a pace likely uncomfortable for our core personnel.
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How many Tony Allen is there in the NBA??

How many Tony Allen is on the Kings???

I rest my case.
.
 
beb0p

beb0p

Starter
#555
#555
hrdboild said:
Not every player wants to run and fire up shots. I think the best players care more about winning than how many shots they take. Karl's version of the situation is that he's got a bunch of lazy players who don't like running and don't like playing defense. It's also possible that these players don't think they can win this way, they don't like the switching zone defense, and that's why they're resisting his system and playing poorly.

George Karl has gotten a lot of mileage out of having the "hall of famer" tag attached to his name. I supported hiring him last December only because I didn't want to see us waste a whole season. When it got to the All Star break I would have preferred we waited and interviewed candidates. I've liked Nate McMillan for awhile and he's still available. I wanted Tom Thibodeau even before he went to Chicago and won a Coach of the Year award. Both are better suited for a system built around a ground-bound center and a wing who gets most of his offense inside the arc. PDA was the one obsessed with pace and he's gone now. It's really pretty simple. I want Vlade to pick a coach who wants to work with the roster he assembled rather than a HOF legend who complains about it. It has to be a partnership.

And if you do get a coach in here who wants to pound the ball inside and run the offense primarily through DeMarcus and Rudy like Mike Malone did, you only have to worry about if the team is winning or not. Then you trade whoever isn't on board. Who are the possible suspects anyway? Ben and Willie don't shoot much now. Rondo would rather pass. It's only Marco, Darren, and Omri who might see their individual stats suffer. I'm fairly sure Omri would be on board. Marco and Darren are on short tradeable deals.

Here's a thought: Memphis needs offense. Marco for Tony Allen. Omri and Ben have been better shooters this year anyway, give them Marco's shots. We'd have the perimeter defender we need off the bench. Karl has to go first though. He would never play Tony Allen.
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The problem with switching to pounding the ball inside is that:

1) We are lost when Demarcus is not on the floor.

2) Rondo is not a good fit.

3) Contrary to popular belief (at least on this board), it does not get us to .500.

.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#556
#556
beb0p said:
The problem with switching to pounding the ball inside is that:

1) We are lost when Demarcus is not on the floor.

2) Rondo is not a good fit.

3) Contrary to popular belief (at least on this board), it does not get us to .500.

.
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1) Isn't that why we signed Kosta Koufos to a 4 year deal?! He's missed a lot of point blank layups and hook shots so far but the fact that he's taking those shots at all is at least encouraging. He should be playing every minute that DeMarcus is on the bench.

2) Like hell he's not. He's one of the best in the league at delivering the ball to the post. More structure would help reduce some of the head scratching turnovers. Maybe you think his inability to shoot makes halfcourt offense untenable or something but I would have thought 4 All Star selections with Boston and his respectable shooting this season would have dispelled some of that. In any case, he's an expiring contact. If it can't work, find someone else.

3) That's just like your opinion man :)
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#557
#557
beb0p said:
The problem with switching to pounding the ball inside is that:

1) We are lost when Demarcus is not on the floor.

2) Rondo is not a good fit.

3) Contrary to popular belief (at least on this board), it does not get us to .500.

.
Click to expand...
I just fear pounding the ball inside will not solve our defensive problems, that actually make us lose games.
I'm not convinced, that we wouldn't turn the ball over at a very similar rate to now.
 
Albatros

Albatros

Starter
#558
#558
Remember under Malone when opposing teams just showed zone and he and the team literally couldn't do a damn thing to break it down.

Pounding the ball, doesn't stop the fact that you can't contain quick guards, you can't figure out how to defend a pick and roll and you might be the worst team in NBA history at defending the three ball, as Malone found out. Still at least throwing the ball to Cuz in the post is actually the one strength of this team, so it's a start.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#559
#559
beb0p said:
The problem with switching to pounding the ball inside is that:

1) We are lost when Demarcus is not on the floor.

2) Rondo is not a good fit.

3) Contrary to popular belief (at least on this board), it does not get us to .500.

.
Click to expand...
Er.. 0-3 I think:

We showed we can be much better than .500.

In part because it fits Cousins, RUDY, and Rondo won a chip playing that way. Koufos is also the sort of low skill meat and potatoes big guy who thrives in that style. The only personnel obviously better suited for a running game would be Ben and Willie.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#560
#560
Jerry Colangelo talking about the Sixers (or is he?) -

Aaron Bruski ‏@aaronbruski 2h2 hours ago
Colangelo on whether PHI will play uptempo with MDA around: “It’s one thing to play a certain way. You need talent that can fit that."

Aaron Bruski ‏@aaronbruski 2h2 hours ago
JC: “The mark of a great coach is you can’t just have a system. You need to look at your talent, make adjustments and play to your strengths.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#562
#562
Prog said:
The Nets just fired Lionel Hollins. Watch them snag whoever is left that's any good (i.e. Thibs) and leave us stuck with Karl.
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I don't understand what the Nets expected of Hollins with the rubbish roster they gave him
 
SacKings384

SacKings384

Starter
#566
#566
randymoss1881 said:
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/...lars-return-nba-kentucky-wildcats-ncaa-011116

My god Calipari asked us for 11mill per to even listen like his overrated ass is gonna have the best talent every year like at Kentucky.
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I don't think he's being a douche. It's almost tongue in cheek. I don't think he expect that he'll get that offer. He's a GOD at Kentucky, and he gets all the top tier talent. He's not as great of a basketball mind as much as is he a recruiter and program manager. He's basically saying he wouldn't take anything less than an absurd offer to move (in other words, he aint movin).

It's also a good way to squash rumors. No team is going to pay him that kind of cash, so he's basically leaving it up to reporters to understand that unless they think any team will come for that offer, keep his name out of the rumor mill.
 
biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#568
#568
According to Steve Kyler of Basketballinsiders Thibodeau wants to go to a contender.
Steve Kyler@stevekylerNBA
Again, what I was told is Thibb was not interested in teaching the kids. Looking for a contender.
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It that is true, we may have an advantage over BKN because our roster is much more talented. I think Memphis or Rockets are more dangerous because their rosters are talented as well and they are the likeliest good teams to replace their coaches.
 
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