[Game] Blazers @ Kings game discussion - 10/10 (pre-season)

Chubbs

Chubbs

Starter
#271
#271
Amit149 said:
I'm not really sure what there is to "despise" here...

LMA isn't an efficient scorer, and there is a reason why he started to trade some long 2's for 3's last year (and was more effective because of it), is PPP is 1.07 for a 3 and 0.83 for a midrange shot.
It doesn't mean he should never take them- but you can't make a claim it's efficient to take a lot of them.
And it's not like Cousins is a fantastic midrange shooter- he was 37.9% from midrange last year, which is the same as shooting 25% from 3.

Anyway, I don't see a reason to get Cousins further away from the basket.
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The 3 is ruining basketball.

its not resisting math. It's just changed basketball for the worse. When bogut gave up a dunk in the finals for a corner 3 I was throwing stuff at the tv. Did shaq need a 3? Neither does cuz. The only reason he's out there is analytics. Conventional basketball wisdom until the stat nerds would never ever put your center out at the 3 line.

I'd like to see the corner 3 eliminated completely. Take it away.

It's an interesting claim that Aldridge isn't an efficient scorer. Not so sure that holds up. If so, the supposedly analytic heavy Spurs sure made a mistake.

Also I think Cuz should be in the post the majority of time. He doesn't want to though. My point is if he's not going to be inside I'd rather see a good shooting percentage of 10-16 foot jumpers than him shooting 10% or less from 3.
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#274
#274
rainmaker said:
Well here we go, Cuz doesn't see himself as a center and he's intentionally floating outside. Support from Karl to do so.

“I don't really consider myself a center,” Cousins said. “I'm just a basketball player. There's so much I can do on the floor. People get stuck on the word ‘center,' ‘big man' and (are) kind of ignorant to the situation. I can't really worry about that. I just go out there and do my job.”

And like anyone else, when there are changes to the job, there is an adjustment.

“It's weird kind of floating out there,” Cousins said. “It's a different thing, but I know it's going to help the team, too. It's just something I've got to adjust to and get used to.”

…

“I do have those skills but it's still an adjustment,” Cousins said. “This isn't just pickup at the park, it's an adjustment.”

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/kings-blog/article38730999.html


It's not gonna help the team to have him constantly looking to spot up off the ball from 18-20+ feet out. It's not gonna help the team to have one of the few bigs in the league who you can run the offense thru and who commands double/triple teams down low, turned into and off the ball perimeter player either shooting or attacking from 18-20+ feet out. Hanging out on the perimeter is giving the defense the night off aside from the random nights you're in the zone and hitting those shots. We're one of the few teams who don't have to live and die by the jumper but for whatever the reason, that seems the plan. The solution isn't to only go inside when Cuz has a size advantage, that's playing weenie ball and letting the opponent dictate what we do. The solution if going up against some of the better front courts is to have Cuz beat them up inside and get them in foul trouble. Otherwise, they've won. You've chased Cuz out to the perimeter like you'd do with any soft jump shooter.

I've got a problem with the whole:

The change should also benefit Cousins physically. If Cousins isn’t parked on the block, he won’t be subjected to the beating he’s taken tussling under the basket.

“Not so much dirty work on my hands this year,” Cousins said. “I think it’s going to help, but like I said, it’s an adjustment. It’ll take a little time. But when it’s clicking, nobody’s going to have anything to say.”

argument. A huge advantage is having other teams attempting to deal with the beating he gives in the paint. Tires them out, gets them in foul trouble, draws attention to free up shooters, gets him to the FT line.


That's not the issue. The issue is we're going to be in a worse position to close out games because he'd have been settling for jumpers too much the first 40-45 mins. Our best stretch of Cuz's career came under Malone last season when he beat the s*** out of opponents inside. The balance comes from him attacking/squaring up off the elbow where he's two dribble from the rim and can have offense run thru him. The balance is not him running to and spotting up 20+ ft away.

If we're in a 2 pt game with 3 mins and we suddenly decide our best chance to win is to go inside to Cuz, the first and obvious question would be why the F didn't we do that the previous 45 mins?
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Dang it Karl!


Whats amusing is that I've read several Vlade quotes that make it blatantly obvious the big guy in charge wants Cousins doing damage inside the paint, as opposed to floating about the perimeter.

If this results in a better offense overall and an improvement in our win/loss, I guess I can accept Cousins as a perimeter player, but it is a bitter pill to swallow.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully there is an overemphasis on it during the preseason, and we'll see more post play in the regular season.
 
A

Amit149

Bench
#275
#275
Chubbs said:
The 3 is ruining basketball.

its not resisting math. It's just changed basketball for the worse. When bogut gave up a dunk in the finals for a corner 3 I was throwing stuff at the tv. Did shaq need a 3? Neither does cuz. The only reason he's out there is analytics. Conventional basketball wisdom until the stat nerds would never ever put your center out at the 3 line.

I'd like to see the corner 3 eliminated completely. Take it away.

It's an interesting claim that Aldridge isn't an efficient scorer. Not so sure that holds up. If so, the supposedly analytic heavy Spurs sure made a mistake.

Also I think Cuz should be in the post the majority of time. He doesn't want to though. My point is if he's not going to be inside I'd rather see a good shooting percentage of 10-16 foot jumpers than him shooting 10% or less from 3.
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I think it's a question of which kind of basketball you like.

About making your center shoot 3's- that's not even that smart according to analytics.

Aldrige is widely known as an inefficient scorer- there are 15 guys who made more than 20 ppg last year, and he is the least efficient one:

1. Curry- 63.8 TS%
2. Harden- 60.5 TS%
3. Klay- 59.1 TS%
4. AD- 59.1 TS%
5. Kyrie- 58.3 TS%
6. Butler- 58.3 TS%
7. LBJ- 57.7 TS%
8. Lillard- 56 TS%
9. Rudy- 55.5 TS%
10. Blake- 55.1 TS%
11. DMC- 54.5 TS%
12. Westbrook- 53.6 TS%
13. Wade- 53.4 TS%

14. Aldridge- 52.8 TS%

The only 20 point scorer worse is DeRozan at 51 TS%.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#276
#276
rainmaker said:
Well here we go, Cuz doesn't see himself as a center and he's intentionally floating outside. Support from Karl to do so.

“I don't really consider myself a center,” Cousins said. “I'm just a basketball player. There's so much I can do on the floor. People get stuck on the word ‘center,' ‘big man' and (are) kind of ignorant to the situation. I can't really worry about that. I just go out there and do my job.”

And like anyone else, when there are changes to the job, there is an adjustment.

“It's weird kind of floating out there,” Cousins said. “It's a different thing, but I know it's going to help the team, too. It's just something I've got to adjust to and get used to.”

…

“I do have those skills but it's still an adjustment,” Cousins said. “This isn't just pickup at the park, it's an adjustment.”

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/kings-blog/article38730999.html


It's not gonna help the team to have him constantly looking to spot up off the ball from 18-20+ feet out. It's not gonna help the team to have one of the few bigs in the league who you can run the offense thru and who commands double/triple teams down low, turned into and off the ball perimeter player either shooting or attacking from 18-20+ feet out. Hanging out on the perimeter is giving the defense the night off aside from the random nights you're in the zone and hitting those shots. We're one of the few teams who don't have to live and die by the jumper but for whatever the reason, that seems the plan. The solution isn't to only go inside when Cuz has a size advantage, that's playing weenie ball and letting the opponent dictate what we do. The solution if going up against some of the better front courts is to have Cuz beat them up inside and get them in foul trouble. Otherwise, they've won. You've chased Cuz out to the perimeter like you'd do with any soft jump shooter.

I've got a problem with the whole:

The change should also benefit Cousins physically. If Cousins isn’t parked on the block, he won’t be subjected to the beating he’s taken tussling under the basket.

“Not so much dirty work on my hands this year,” Cousins said. “I think it’s going to help, but like I said, it’s an adjustment. It’ll take a little time. But when it’s clicking, nobody’s going to have anything to say.”

argument. A huge advantage is having other teams attempting to deal with the beating he gives in the paint. Tires them out, gets them in foul trouble, draws attention to free up shooters, gets him to the FT line.


That's not the issue. The issue is we're going to be in a worse position to close out games because he'd have been settling for jumpers too much the first 40-45 mins. Our best stretch of Cuz's career came under Malone last season when he beat the s*** out of opponents inside. The balance comes from him attacking/squaring up off the elbow where he's two dribble from the rim and can have offense run thru him. The balance is not him running to and spotting up 20+ ft away.

If we're in a 2 pt game with 3 mins and we suddenly decide our best chance to win is to go inside to Cuz, the first and obvious question would be why the F didn't we do that the previous 45 mins?
Click to expand...
All good points. This "new" demand on Cuz is a balancing act t benefit the team. It will be interesting to see how well it works onwards getting more wins.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#278
#278
Aldridge is a much better shooter than Cousins. Most of Cousins outside shots are of the catch and shoot variety. Aldridge is doing turn around fadeaways and all sorts of crazy stuff out there. If he toned it down and just played the game more straight forward, his efficiency would go way up. Watch this year with the Spurs. Pops will have him cut that shooting guard type shooting out and have him down to basics where you'll see his percentages go up.

He shot 35% from 3, which is fantastic for a big man. I highly highly doubt Cousins could do that.

Analytics are fine but you have to match them up with the real world. There's more to basketball than just stats. There's floor spacing, defensive game planning, the talent and lack of talent of the men playing around you. There's a lot more that goes into it than just percentages. You might shoot a couple percentage points better during the season but if that causes you to miss out on an offensive rebound every game, is it worth it? If it causes you to miss out on 2 free throws a game, is it worth it? There's a ton that goes into it that simple stats don't always cover.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#280
#280
gunks said:
Dang it Karl!


Whats amusing is that I've read several Vlade quotes that make it blatantly obvious the big guy in charge wants Cousins doing damage inside the paint, as opposed to floating about the perimeter.

If this results in a better offense overall and an improvement in our win/loss, I guess I can accept Cousins as a perimeter player, but it is a bitter pill to swallow.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully there is an overemphasis on it during the preseason, and we'll see more post play in the regular season.
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There really is no future in Cousins becoming a perimeter player...maybe they will have short term success but that won't get you to your ultimate goal as a team, a championship. I don't know if Karl is feeding Cousins junk that he should expand his game to the perimeter more or if Cousins has this idea in his head that he wants to mold his game after LeMarcus Aldridge or something of that sort. It's too early to speculate so I will stop there but I won't hold my breath if that's what ends up happening.
 
P

Peter_Gibbons

Starter
#282
#282
I hope that the way Karl has been using Cousins so far is just an experiment during the pre-season. For one, someone as naturally big as Cousins cannot be asked to run up and down all game long and set picks while being expected to be a core piece of the defense and rotating/switching.

The knees and foot on these big guys already have a lot of weight and stress on them. Using them this way will increase the chance of a serious injury. Cousins needs to get at least half his touches and shots from the post.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#283
#283
gunks said:
Dang it Karl!


Whats amusing is that I've read several Vlade quotes that make it blatantly obvious the big guy in charge wants Cousins doing damage inside the paint, as opposed to floating about the perimeter.

If this results in a better offense overall and an improvement in our win/loss, I guess I can accept Cousins as a perimeter player, but it is a bitter pill to swallow.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully there is an overemphasis on it during the preseason, and we'll see more post play in the regular season.
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This is all on Cuz...he keeps saying that he's a 4 ever since his rookie year...somebody needs to go up to his face and straight up tell him he's not...
kingsboi said:
There really is no future in Cousins becoming a perimeter player...maybe they will have short term success but that won't get you to your ultimate goal as a team, a championship. I don't know if Karl is feeding Cousins junk that he should expand his game to the perimeter more or if Cousins has this idea in his head that he wants to mold his game after LeMarcus Aldridge or something of that sort. It's too early to speculate so I will stop there but I won't hold my breath if that's what ends up happening.
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Cousins playing PF is probably one of the worst things that could happen for us...please no...

He's a top 3 center, but he's not even a top 10 PF... He's not quick enough to be a PF...not to mention he's much better down in the post... Seeing Cuz attack the basket 15ft out makes me cringe every single time because he travels a lot... Please no....and did you see the way he was contesting shots? He's going to get easy quick fouls trying to contest shots...

Please no Cousins at PF... Someone tell Cuz that he's a center..
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#285
#285
VF21 said:
You go ahead. I'll stand back here and watch.
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I said somebody for a reason lol. I remember someone somewhere complained about his agent not finding him enough endorsements... Cuz isn't the most marketable guy.... His intimidation on the court follows, even though we all know he's a mellow and humble guy. If you bring up basketball...he turns into the Hulk...

Yea...I'll pass.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#287
#287
I'd much much rather have Rudy play some at the 4, than ever playing Cousins there. Just lock him down low in the 5 position and figure out a combination of different guys to cover the 4 spot
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#291
#291
ShastaKingsFan said:
I'd much much rather have Rudy play some at the 4, than ever playing Cousins there. Just lock him down low in the 5 position and figure out a combination of different guys to cover the 4 spot
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I disagree, if the league is going small we can counter that by going big and remember we have the potential kryptonite to small ball in WCS.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#293
#293
jcwkings said:
I disagree, if the league is going small we can counter that by going big and remember we have the potential kryptonite to small ball in WCS.
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We can. I LOVE the idea of crushing smallball "power" forwards with Cuz. I hope he hurts a few of them. But, BUT...that's not what we are doing. That's the problem.

Here's Basketball 101. George is 50 years out of college now, so maybe he needs a little refresher:

1) You are guarded by bigger/slower player, take him outside. We have seen Cuz do this over the years with his jumper against the huge centers.

2) You are guarded by smaller/weaker player, take him inside. And here is the fail of the current mess right now. Great, PFs are guarding Cuz. Cool! Go kill them! But no. We are getting PFs to guard Cuz...and then we are playing right into those PFs hands by making Cuz play like a weenie stretch 4 himself. We are giving the edge to the defender in exactly 100% the opposite fashion that we should. if a big center guards Cuz and he retreats outside, there is a tactical thought there. If a PF is guarding Cuz and he retreats outside...there is none. We have taken our great advantage and turned it into just another muddle. if Boris Diaw is guarding Cuz you do NOT have Cuz run outside and shoot a three on him or try to drive past him. Cuz should be immediately posted and kill him inside. I can count on one hand the number of posts I have seen from Cuz in the preseason, and almost all of them were decoys while the play was for a cutter behind him.
 
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kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#294
#294
Bricklayer said:
We can. I LOVE the idea of crushing smallball "power" forwards with Cuz. I hope he hurts a few of them. But, BUT...that's not what we are doing. That's the problem.

Here's Basketball 101. George is 50 years out of college now, so maybe he needs a little refresher:

1) You are guarded by bigger/slower player, take him outside. We have seen Cuz do this over the years with his jumper against the huge centers.

2) You are guarded by smaller/weaker player, take him inside. And here is the fail of the current mess right now. Great, PFs are guarding Cuz. Cool! Go kill them! But no. We are getting PFs to guard Cuz...and then we are playing right into those PFs hands by making Cuz play like a weenie stretch 4 himself. We are giving the edge to the defender in exactly 100% the opposite fashion that we should. if a big center guards Cuz and he retreats outside, there is a tactical thought there. If a PF is guarding Cuz and he retreats outside...there is none. We have taken our great advantage and turned it into just another muddle. if Boris Diaw is guarding Cuz you do NOT have Cuz run outside and shoot a three on him or try to drive past him. Cuz should be immediately posted and kill him inside. I can count on one hand the number of posts I have seen from Cuz in the preseason, and almost all of them were decoys while the play was for a cutter behind him.
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If Karl decides to under utilize his superstar CENTER this season then that is all on him and he has to go because that cannot and should not be tolerated. Vlade would need to have another sit down with these two and say exactly how he wants this team to play, now I know you don't want your GM dictating your style of play but by bringing in certain personnel, I think it's safe to assume what kind of team Vlade wants out there. This season will just be another waste IMO if you have Cousins shooting 20+ 3's for the season.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#295
#295
kingsboi said:
If Karl decides to under utilize his superstar CENTER this season then that is all on him and he has to go because that cannot and should not be tolerated. Vlade would need to have another sit down with these two and say exactly how he wants this team to play, now I know you don't want your GM dictating your style of play but by bringing in certain personnel, I think it's safe to assume what kind of team Vlade wants out there. This season will just be another waste IMO if you have Cousins shooting 20+ 3's for the season.
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But that's what Cousins wants to do. They already started off rocky...what if Karl tells Cuz no, he can't play in the perimeter. Do you think Cuz will be happy about that? I certainly don't..
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#296
#296
Vlade easy wants Cuz to bang inside. He's said as much.

I'm still hoping this is just preseason messing around and we'll see our guy inside once the regular season starts.

Otherwise, if Cuz playing outside hurts us, I can definitely see the Vladefather having a sit down...

.... I mean, a much lesser GM in PDA fired Malone because he wasn't jazzy enough.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#298
#298
Sac.Kings said:
My favorite thing about Kosta, and looks like WCS is well on his way to having this same trait, is to be able to defend without fouling. A good defensive big is useless if he's consistently in foul trouble. Kosta just knows where to be, and WCS is looking like he is already figuring this out. I am also very impressed by the both of them, especially WCS. Very poised, not easily rattled, and plays like he's been in the league for years already. WCS and Rondo are my favorite Kings. In the way that WCS is special at defending, Rondo is the same in controlling the game. These things are unteachable.

We may not have all the right pieces yet on our team, but an average/good SG (doesn't matter how this happens - Ben figuring it out or trade) and a good 4th big and we are there, ready to compete with the best of them. To be honest, at that point my major worry would be Cousins still acting, well, like Cousins with the refs. Cousins has kids, I am sure he doesn't tolerate every temper tantrum they throw, so why should the refs tolerate his? If he manages to channel that frustration into something productive (I am sure he would not have a problem with this), he will upgrade himself and his team from good to great. Maybe if someone challenged him... for every bad call, make the refs regret it by scoring down the other end. Something along those lines. He did it with techs, maybe with this too?
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Cousins does what he wants to do. He acts up because he can; not because he can't control himself. With USA basketball he was on good behavior because he knew he couldn't get away with his tantrums. With the Kings, he could give a ****.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#299
#299
Kingster said:
Cousins does what he wants to do. He acts up because he can; not because he can't control himself. With USA basketball he was on good behavior because he knew he couldn't get away with his tantrums. With the Kings, he could give a ****.
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I think it has a lot to do with winning too. This is going to be Cousins' year to prove to everybody that he IS a franchise leading player. I think he's going to do it. I feel confident as long as he buys into what Karl has set. I feel like we already have Rudy, Rondo, Belinelli, Kofus, Collison, and WCS in. Now, we just have to get Cuz, Casspi, and McLemore on track/the same page.

I believe if we AT LEAST get all the guys on the same page, we will win min, 35 games. The players and coaches just need to figure out the rest of it.

Hopefully we see less of angry Cuz this season.
 
A

Amaranth

G-League
#300
#300
206Fan said:
I think it has a lot to do with winning too. This is going to be Cousins' year to prove to everybody that he IS a franchise leading player. I think he's going to do it. I feel confident as long as he buys into what Karl has set. I feel like we already have Rudy, Rondo, Belinelli, Kofus, Collison, and WCS in. Now, we just have to get Cuz, Casspi, and McLemore on track/the same page.

I believe if we AT LEAST get all the guys on the same page, we will win min, 35 games. The players and coaches just need to figure out the rest of it.

Hopefully we see less of angry Cuz this season.
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What makes you think Casspi isn't on the same page as Karl?
http://www.csnbayarea.com/kings/kings-casspi-confident-he-can-shine-karls-system#
 
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