[Game] Blazers @ Kings game discussion - 10/10 (pre-season)

Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#241
#241
KingMilz said:
I can't believe how good Kosta and WCS are on help defense and covering up mistakes I have been so use to watching garbage help D from our bigs for the last decade I'm in literally shock how good both these guys are. WCS ability to cover distance is unlike anything I have ever seen dude can literally guard two people at once without a question after 3-4 games he's easily my favorite King. Kosta just does it with timing and being one step ahead of where he should be the guy just does so many little things I really believe lots of teams will be kicking themselves (in particular contenders) not signing this guy.


Edit: Kmart only making 7million so it is possible to trade for him in that case yeah I would do it. KMarts lack of D could easily be covered up by our 3 monster bigs.
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My favorite thing about Kosta, and looks like WCS is well on his way to having this same trait, is to be able to defend without fouling. A good defensive big is useless if he's consistently in foul trouble. Kosta just knows where to be, and WCS is looking like he is already figuring this out. I am also very impressed by the both of them, especially WCS. Very poised, not easily rattled, and plays like he's been in the league for years already. WCS and Rondo are my favorite Kings. In the way that WCS is special at defending, Rondo is the same in controlling the game. These things are unteachable.

We may not have all the right pieces yet on our team, but an average/good SG (doesn't matter how this happens - Ben figuring it out or trade) and a good 4th big and we are there, ready to compete with the best of them. To be honest, at that point my major worry would be Cousins still acting, well, like Cousins with the refs. Cousins has kids, I am sure he doesn't tolerate every temper tantrum they throw, so why should the refs tolerate his? If he manages to channel that frustration into something productive (I am sure he would not have a problem with this), he will upgrade himself and his team from good to great. Maybe if someone challenged him... for every bad call, make the refs regret it by scoring down the other end. Something along those lines. He did it with techs, maybe with this too?

Regardless, we are vastly more talented than we have been in probably a decade or so. We are seeing the tip of the iceberg, the team is still figuring out a lot of things. Tendencies, rotations, sets, etc. It may take a few games to really gel, but we can beat good teams. Our interior defense is top notch, truly.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#244
#244
Bricklayer said:
brickl2011‏@brickl2011 45m45 minutes ago
@boogiecousins @CoachKarl22 @SacramentoKings Cousins 2pt FG: 22-46 .478 Cousins 3pt FG: 1-10 .100 Please Stop.


Clarify things any? :)
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This is DMC's fault as much as it is Karl's. Cousins keeps insisting that he's a PF and wants to play his "natural position". It's why we keep seeing Cuz out in the perimeter...can someone please tell him he's not a PF? I feel like he travels all the time when he gets the ball out in the perimeter and tries to bully himself into the paint.. It'll only be in a matter of time when the refs start calling them... AD plays very good in the perimeter..I don't think that is Cuz's strength. I know it's only preseason, but he's looking more for his own..I think all of this has something to do with him playing PF.

Make it stop guys!
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#245
#245
James Anderson may be a better starting option than Ben. I think whomever can defend and hit the 3 better should start with Bellinelli off the bench. Karl likes Anderson.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#246
#246
dude12 said:
James Anderson may be a better starting option than Ben. I think whomever can defend and hit the 3 better should start with Bellinelli off the bench. Karl likes Anderson.
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Yep, our starting unit is showing signs of being a defensive nightmare with its length, nothing inside attitude. If Anderson can play solid wing defense/team defense and hit an occasional spot 3 it might be enough for him to earn those 12-15 minutes at the start and third quarters before guys like Collison and Bellinelli are subbed in.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#248
#248
Larry89 said:
It just makes me more worried
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Its a usage issue. 100%.

We've got an old ball coach who has spent his entire career without a single comparable big man and probably soils his Depends everytime he sees a big man down in the post. There is no evidence at all that he understands what makes a big man a big man, despite getting knocked out of the playoffs again and again over the years by teams featuring them. And so he and his assistant "dribble drive offense" monkey take a look at a great big man with some shooting and dribbling skills, and they are playing him like a SF. All they can see as an advantage is him starting every touch at the 3pt line and creating everything from that point on down. I don't know if Belinelli in the starting lineup or Ben finally growing hair on his schmeckel has the potential to grow our coaching staff out of this or not. Maybe with a real perimeter threat at SG they stop the nonsense, but I doubt it.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#249
#249
swisshh said:
This is why I argue that a long 2 from Cousins spreads the floor and is actual better PPS than a 3 from him.

Of course you want him down low, but that seems to only happen on Rondo PnRs.
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long two's are probably one of the lowest percentage shots that a player can take....that is NOT a good shot for a two guard, matter fact a 270 pound center.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#251
#251
kingsboi said:
long two's are probably one of the lowest percentage shots that a player can take....that is NOT a good shot for a two guard, matter fact a 270 pound center.
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On average, but we're talking about one particular player.

Cousins, including last regular season and this year, is 3 for 18 on threes.

He is about 38% on long 2s though it's much better from up top.

That's .5 points per shot on threes and .75 points per shot on long twos. Both are bad, but there are advantages to moving Cousins from three range to long two. 1. He's less likely to lazily jack it up. 2. His pump fake and drive game is more effective with less ground to cover. 3. Defenders know he can hit the long two so they will come out on him. This is not true for Cousins taking the three. The only thing that draws them out on 3s is defensive 3 sec rule, but Cousins has to have patience to even trigger that.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#252
#252
swisshh said:
On average, but we're talking about one particular player.

Cousins, including last regular season and this year, is 3 for 18 on threes.

He is about 38% on long 2s though it's much better from up top.

That's .5 points per shot on threes and .75 points per shot on long twos. Both are bad, but there are advantages to moving Cousins from three range to long two. 1. He's less likely to lazily jack it up. 2. His pump fake and drive game is more effective with less ground to cover. 3. Defenders know he can hit the long two so they will come out on him. This is not true for Cousins taking the three. The only thing that draws them out on 3s is defensive 3 sec rule, but Cousins has to have patience to even trigger that.
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We can agree he has no business on the three point line...he is strictly doing this so he doesn't have to bang in the post where it doesn't matter, or so I hope...two, 38% on long two's is not respectable at all but he has games where he is hitting them. Doesn't mean he should solely take jump shots, his primary game should be in the paint, whether that happens we will see. A full year of Karl will be telling.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#253
#253
kingsboi said:
long two's are probably one of the lowest percentage shots that a player can take....that is NOT a good shot for a two guard, matter fact a 270 pound center.
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That has been badly oversold. If you can hit them around 40% it creates much needed space. And if you are a big guy, you are 3 steps closer to being abel to get an offensive rebound/get in the action than you would be shooting a three. Shooting a three is inherently a weenie act.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#254
#254
Bricklayer said:
That has been badly oversold. If you can hit them around 40% it creates much needed space. And if you are a big guy, you are 3 steps closer to being abel to get an offensive rebound/get in the action than you would be shooting a three. Shooting a three is inherently a weenie act.
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Give me some stats of players who shoot a good percentage of long two's. Three point shooting creates much needed space, not long two's.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#255
#255
Oh I agree that you don't want the long 2 or the 3 from Cousins, but in situations where he's getting the ball that high, I'd rather it be kicked to him at a spot he can nail the shot rather than just out by the 3pt line because of conventional wisdom (but a wisdom the other team can rightly ignore).

My point is that Cousins at the 3pt line doesn't actually stretch the defense, so it defeats the purpose of doing it. They will just sit in the paint until 3 seconds nears. If the defense comes out, they won't come out any further than they would if he was at the limit of this 2pt range.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#258
#258
kingsboi said:
Give me some stats of players who shoot a good percentage of long two's. Three point shooting creates much needed space, not long two's.
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It creates space when its Cousins shooting the long two as opposed to a 3. He is a much more effective shooter from long two point range than he is 3 point range. The more efficient a shot is, the more a defender has to guard it. No one needs to guard Cousins at the 3pt line. Defenders to have to guard his long 2 point shots. Since the defender guarding cousins has to get a hand up on his long 2's, it pulls that defender out of the paint. This creates space.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#259
#259
Chupacabra said:
It creates space when its Cousins shooting the long two as opposed to a 3. He is a much more effective shooter from long two point range than he is 3 point range. The more efficient a shot is, the more a defender has to guard it. No one needs to guard Cousins at the 3pt line. Defenders to have to guard his long 2 point shots. Since the defender guarding cousins has to get a hand up on his long 2's, it pulls that defender out of the paint. This creates space.
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By no means am I defending Cousins shooting three's, he should shoot ZERO of them. But I suppose if he is going to be shooting from the perimeter it will be majorly from long two's so I suppose at this point we just hope he can hit a decent clip of them.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#260
#260
sdballer said:
Well according to cousins and karl, the plan is for him to mix the perimeter into his game more this season, including 3 pointers. Not sure I like that decision at all.
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On the other hand mot sure it's such a bad idea. We've lost many games where Cuz has scored 22-32 points. We don't need more points from him, we need more from everyone else. It's a team issue. Hope t works.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#261
#261
pshn80 said:
On the other hand mot sure it's such a bad idea. We've lost many games where Cuz has scored 22-32 points. We don't need more points from him, we need more from everyone else. It's a team issue. Hope t works.
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So the answer is to make him less efficient? I'm not sure that I follow your logic.
 
Chubbs

Chubbs

Starter
#262
#262
kingsboi said:
Give me some stats of players who shoot a good percentage of long two's. Three point shooting creates much needed space, not long two's.
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works for lamarcus Aldridge. It's AD's bread and butter too. He just had an all time great efficient season. Now they're trying to get him to shoots 3's too. Is that better? I doubt it. AD was .451 from 10-16 feet( maybe not technically a long two but for a big man I consider than a long two) and 0.083 from 3.

Aldridge consistently leads the league in long twos. And I'm betting the Spurs aren't stupid enough to tell him he has to now incorporate 3's heavily.

A 15-18 foot jumper from cuz spaces the floor just as well as a 3. If he can't make a 3 it's a far worse shot.

I despise this analytics mindset. I really do.
 
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kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#263
#263
Chubbs said:
works for lamarcus Aldridge. It's AD's bread and butter too. He just had an all time great efficient season. Now they're trying to get him to shoots 3's too. Is that better? I doubt it. AD was .451 from 10-16 feet( maybe not technically a long two but for a big man I consider than a long two) and 0.083 from 3.

Aldridge consistently leads the league in long twos. And I'm betting the Spurs aren't stupid enough to tell him he has to now incorporate 3's heavily.

A 15-18 foot jumper from cuz spaces the floor just as well as a 3. If he can't make a 3 it's a far worse shot.

I despise this analytics mindset. I really do.
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LaMarcus/AD and DeMarcus are different players. Cousins is the only power player out of the three...the other two are jump shooting PF's primarily....sure they can shoot the three but that doesn't make it a good shot. When Cousins consistently shoots jump shots, he is not being utilized the best way possible and that's facing his man up or driving it to the rim or posting up.
 
A

Amit149

Bench
#264
#264
Chubbs said:
works for lamarcus Aldridge. It's AD's bread and butter too. He just had an all time great efficient season. Now they're trying to get him to shoots 3's too. Is that better? I doubt it. AD was .451 from 10-16 feet( maybe not technically a long two but for a big man I consider than a long two) and 0.083 from 3.

Aldridge consistently leads the league in long twos. And I'm betting the Spurs aren't stupid enough to tell him he has to now incorporate 3's heavily.

A 15-18 foot jumper from cuz spaces the floor just as well as a 3. If he can't make a 3 it's a far worse shot.

I despise this analytics mindset. I really do.
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I'm not really sure what there is to "despise" here...

LMA isn't an efficient scorer, and there is a reason why he started to trade some long 2's for 3's last year (and was more effective because of it), is PPP is 1.07 for a 3 and 0.83 for a midrange shot.
It doesn't mean he should never take them- but you can't make a claim it's efficient to take a lot of them.
And it's not like Cousins is a fantastic midrange shooter- he was 37.9% from midrange last year, which is the same as shooting 25% from 3.

Anyway, I don't see a reason to get Cousins further away from the basket.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#265
#265
Amit149 said:
I'm not really sure what there is to "despise" here...

LMA isn't an efficient scorer, and there is a reason why he started to trade some long 2's for 3's last year (and was more effective because of it), is PPP is 1.07 for a 3 and 0.83 for a midrange shot.
It doesn't mean he should never take them- but you can't make a claim it's efficient to take a lot of them.
And it's not like Cousins is a fantastic midrange shooter- he was 37.9% from midrange last year, which is the same as shooting 25% from 3.

Anyway, I don't see a reason to get Cousins further away from the basket.
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I think this post along with many are missing some much needed context. You can't simply look at Cousins (or anyone's) midrange percentage and decide if he should be guarded out on the perimeter. For example, let's say a player hits 90% of his jumpers when the defender gives him 6 feet of space, and he hits 10% of his jumpers when the defender is only 2 feet away. However, this player takes many more jumpers when a defender is close to him. This would result in a sub optimal shooting percentage.

The point is a lot of it can come down to shot selection when you're looking at any kind of shooting percentage. What we need to understand is how well he shoots in different kinds of scenarios. Just because a player shoots 30% from midrange doesn't mean I should not guard him out there because he could be very, very efficient at knocking down jumpers if he has a lot of space. If a player knocks down jumpers when defenders are 4 feet away but struggles when defenders are 3 feet or closer, I know how I should guard him. I don't think NBA.com's player tracking has this capability when looking at distance away from the basket, but it would be a very interesting stat to look at.

Looking at just one percentage is not going to tell the story.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#266
#266
Amit149 said:
I'm not really sure what there is to "despise" here...

LMA isn't an efficient scorer, and there is a reason why he started to trade some long 2's for 3's last year (and was more effective because of it), is PPP is 1.07 for a 3 and 0.83 for a midrange shot.
It doesn't mean he should never take them- but you can't make a claim it's efficient to take a lot of them.
And it's not like Cousins is a fantastic midrange shooter- he was 37.9% from midrange last year, which is the same as shooting 25% from 3.

Anyway, I don't see a reason to get Cousins further away from the basket.
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Great post. It's just simple math that people seem to resist. And while LMA is mega-talented, he's probably the least efficient star player in the NBA, precisely because he takes a lot of mid-range jumpers and doesn't get to the foul line.

LMA hit 35% on his 3s last year in 107 attempts. That's far more effective and valuable than 107 more mid-range shots. It wouldn't surprise me to see him around 120-130 3FGA this year too
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#267
#267
pshn80 said:
On the other hand mot sure it's such a bad idea. We've lost many games where Cuz has scored 22-32 points. We don't need more points from him, we need more from everyone else. It's a team issue. Hope t works.
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We need Cuz to have less usage, but more effiency. Sub .45% FG for a big man is not good at all..I know he makes it up for a lot of the fouls he draws, but Cuz needs to score more efficiently. The less of a dominant scoring role he has, the more of everything he'll be able to do.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#268
#268
Im confident they will find a balance of inside/outside. You guys have to look big picture. Karl is trying to implement a system where we arent 100 percent reliant on Cuz. Last year the team fell apart if Cousins wasnt on the floor. With the system Karl is implementing we might be able to survive the little injuries that are bound to pop up over the season. At the end of the day we know where our bread will be buttered. If we need a bucket we will see plenty of Cuz on the block at the end of games.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#269
#269
Well here we go, Cuz doesn't see himself as a center and he's intentionally floating outside. Support from Karl to do so.

“I don't really consider myself a center,” Cousins said. “I'm just a basketball player. There's so much I can do on the floor. People get stuck on the word ‘center,' ‘big man' and (are) kind of ignorant to the situation. I can't really worry about that. I just go out there and do my job.”

And like anyone else, when there are changes to the job, there is an adjustment.

“It's weird kind of floating out there,” Cousins said. “It's a different thing, but I know it's going to help the team, too. It's just something I've got to adjust to and get used to.”

…

“I do have those skills but it's still an adjustment,” Cousins said. “This isn't just pickup at the park, it's an adjustment.”

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/kings-blog/article38730999.html


It's not gonna help the team to have him constantly looking to spot up off the ball from 18-20+ feet out. It's not gonna help the team to have one of the few bigs in the league who you can run the offense thru and who commands double/triple teams down low, turned into and off the ball perimeter player either shooting or attacking from 18-20+ feet out. Hanging out on the perimeter is giving the defense the night off aside from the random nights you're in the zone and hitting those shots. We're one of the few teams who don't have to live and die by the jumper but for whatever the reason, that seems the plan. The solution isn't to only go inside when Cuz has a size advantage, that's playing weenie ball and letting the opponent dictate what we do. The solution if going up against some of the better front courts is to have Cuz beat them up inside and get them in foul trouble. Otherwise, they've won. You've chased Cuz out to the perimeter like you'd do with any soft jump shooter.

I've got a problem with the whole:

The change should also benefit Cousins physically. If Cousins isn’t parked on the block, he won’t be subjected to the beating he’s taken tussling under the basket.

“Not so much dirty work on my hands this year,” Cousins said. “I think it’s going to help, but like I said, it’s an adjustment. It’ll take a little time. But when it’s clicking, nobody’s going to have anything to say.”

argument. A huge advantage is having other teams attempting to deal with the beating he gives in the paint. Tires them out, gets them in foul trouble, draws attention to free up shooters, gets him to the FT line.

jcwkings said:
At the end of the day we know where our bread will be buttered. If we need a bucket we will see plenty of Cuz on the block at the end of games.
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That's not the issue. The issue is we're going to be in a worse position to close out games because he'd have been settling for jumpers too much the first 40-45 mins. Our best stretch of Cuz's career came under Malone last season when he beat the s*** out of opponents inside. The balance comes from him attacking/squaring up off the elbow where he's two dribble from the rim and can have offense run thru him. The balance is not him running to and spotting up 20+ ft away.

If we're in a 2 pt game with 3 mins and we suddenly decide our best chance to win is to go inside to Cuz, the first and obvious question would be why the F didn't we do that the previous 45 mins?
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#270
#270
206Fan said:
We need Cuz to have less usage, but more effiency. Sub .45% FG for a big man is not good at all..I know he makes it up for a lot of the fouls he draws, but Cuz needs to score more efficiently. The less of a dominant scoring role he has, the more of everything he'll be able to do.
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Yes I agree, with the talent upgrade we have this year we dont really need Cuz to be a 26 ppg high usage guy. He should still be high usage, but if we can get him to play stout defense at all times we could have far and away the best interior defense rotation in the league.
 
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