SI: Dream Team 2016: LeBron James, Anthony Davis lead SI's 12-man roster
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Come on guys. Anthony Davis is extremely versatile on defense and can defend pick and rolls much better than Cousins. He can guard multiple positions, has elite length to alter shots, and has a great vertical. Cousins can not guard the PR like Davis, cant guard multiple positions, and is not as versatile. Cousins is roaming around the inside the whole time in the paint. Not saying Cousins is bad defensively, I am just stating Davis is much better at defense but Cousins is definitely underrated defensively.
I'd rather cousins stay at 25-12-5 forget the points increase in assists, decrease TO, and up the efficiency.
This is simply false a month ago someone posted the advanced defensive states wher cousins was better. Not only that but I'm pretty sure NO as a team was ranked in the 20s in defense not grade for the alleged all world defender.
This is simply false a month ago someone posted the advanced defensive states wher cousins was better. Not only that but I'm pretty sure NO as a team was ranked in the 20s in defense not grade for the alleged all world defender.
Let's not act like Holiday hasn't played less than 90 games the last 3 seasons since becoming a Pelican.. Gordon missed a chunk of time.. As well did Ryan Anderson.
It was a terrible injury year for the pelicans. To act like he's had some amazing players around him is a bit foolish when you consider that most of them weren't even healthy.
And you talk about Draymond Green like he's a chump...come on. And let's not pretend that Bogut can't stop Cuz.
AD got his injured team to the playoffs. That's an achievement Cuz hasn't accomplished yet
It was a terrible injury year for the pelicans. To act like he's had some amazing players around him is a bit foolish when you consider that most of them weren't even healthy.
And you talk about Draymond Green like he's a chump...come on. And let's not pretend that Bogut can't stop Cuz.
AD got his injured team to the playoffs. That's an achievement Cuz hasn't accomplished yet
This will happen, IMO, without even much effort. He finally has someone to pass the ball to, a PG that can run the offense (so he no longer has to be the primary initiator of the offense, though I am sure we will still run a lot of our offense through him) and his efficiency will increase because of his team being better. We have rim protection so he no longer has to defend from the 3 point line and in, we have better shooters, and we have two PGs that, at worst, will run our offense effectively. The presence of Rondo will allow Cousins to have some of the easiest scoring chances in his NBA career. He will be more efficient (and I suspect significantly so) and I also expect him to have over .500% from the field this season.
Actually while that's the story often pitched, the numbers haven't supported the idea that Davis is better at all than Cousins on defense right now (we'll see about the future), and ironically some of that is because of the very things you list. Cousins has emerged as a rock. You aren't moving him, you aren't taking advantage of him, he makes very good rotations and hedges inside, he leads the league in charges every year. he's got quick and strong hands, he's the best defensive rebounder in the game. He owns the middle. Comparatively Davis flies and flutters about. Davis can indeed roam. Has the insane wingspan. Can be a factor on any off the ball play in the game (much like WCS in all likelihood). But he's not stout. He doesn't like to stand in there. The very best thing you can do to him is drop a shoulder into him, muscle him. He's a swooping disruptive factor throughout the game, but he's not a rock. Its the same story as his offense. Its pretty. But is it dependable when things get tough? Last year the impact numbers comparing the two are inconclusive at best. I would expect this season for a +/- gap to emerge with Cuz backed up by Koufos and Davis still backed up by Ryan Anderson, but that's not going to change the underlying dynamic.
This past season, these were the Per36 stats and various defensive tracking stats and metrics:
Per 36:
Cousns 1.6stl 1.8blk 10.1DReb
ADavis 1.5stl 2.9blk 7.7DReb
Opp FG% at Rim:
Cousns 47.0
ADavis 48.6
Opp FG% Differential*:
Cousns -3.4
ADavis -6.2 (6th)
Defensive Real +/-:
Cousns 4.71 (4th)
ADavis 4.20 (7th)
Defensive Rating:
Cousns 101
ADavsi 100
Defensive Box Per Minute:
Cousns 3.3
ADavsi 3.0
* stat on nba.com I am exploring. Seems to get too many aberrant results -- #1 guy with major minutes? Nate Robinson. But if you set aside the Nick Young appearances etc., basically all of the league's good defenders do well at it. Might be a way to express the point about Davis being versatile and able to guard all types all over the floor. 5th was Draymond Green, 6th Davis, nearly identical elite numbers. Cuz at -3.4 was about #30-40 in the pack of good defenders. Gobert was -3.9. Duncan -3.2. Wes Mathews, Arron Gordon, George Hill et.c, all -3.2. Of course Carl landry and Quincy Acy were also right there, and so was Will Barton, so not sure I would lead with this stat.
In any case once you set the hype aside, its a damn hard argument to make that Davis is on another level than Cousins defensively. Can't do it with real numbers. Can't do it with metrics, on-off, player tracking numbers...its just not there beyond media getting excited by A.D.s shotblocking. But thing is that Boogie did well as a shotblocker last year too, and on top of that he adds an almost unique factor by leading the league in charges drawn. Something most bigs do almost none of at all. And a charge drawn has to be considered right up there with and maybe even superior to a blocked shot. I prefer blocks because they intimidate. But a charge drawn not only automatically gets you the ball back, but it puts a foul on the other player/team too. Its a real useful play, and Boogie is the best in the league at it.
Charges Drawn:
Cousns: 34 (#1)
ADavis: 1
Now as mentioned, if a charge taken is at least as valuable as a blocked shot, what if we just added those 34 charges to Boogie's block number to get a more accurate read at "defensive stops" if you will. All of a sudden those per 36 numbers become:
Cousns 1.6stl 2.5blk/chrg 10.1DReb
ADavis 1.5stl 2.9blk/chrg 7.7DReb
and now what do we think? We'll I'll tell you what I think: Davis has the obvious physical tools, or the physical tools we always go gaga over. The length. But Boogie has the strength, toughness and smarts/saavy. He's kind of a basketball genius you know, and physical power and league best hands are great traits to have too. Once he got some coaching and set himself the goal of learning defense, he's learned how to play it and then some. Because of the preferred super-length tool Davis likely has the most high end potential. Boogie is not especially tall for a center, not a huge leaper. But right now Cousins has made himself into one of the league's more effective big men defenders doing it his way, as always. And its a hard argument to make on anything other than hype/narrative that Davis is vastly superior. Its not there in the numbers at all.
This past season, these were the Per36 stats and various defensive tracking stats and metrics:
Per 36:
Cousns 1.6stl 1.8blk 10.1DReb
ADavis 1.5stl 2.9blk 7.7DReb
Opp FG% at Rim:
Cousns 47.0
ADavis 48.6
Opp FG% Differential*:
Cousns -3.4
ADavis -6.2 (6th)
Defensive Real +/-:
Cousns 4.71 (4th)
ADavis 4.20 (7th)
Defensive Rating:
Cousns 101
ADavsi 100
Defensive Box Per Minute:
Cousns 3.3
ADavsi 3.0
* stat on nba.com I am exploring. Seems to get too many aberrant results -- #1 guy with major minutes? Nate Robinson. But if you set aside the Nick Young appearances etc., basically all of the league's good defenders do well at it. Might be a way to express the point about Davis being versatile and able to guard all types all over the floor. 5th was Draymond Green, 6th Davis, nearly identical elite numbers. Cuz at -3.4 was about #30-40 in the pack of good defenders. Gobert was -3.9. Duncan -3.2. Wes Mathews, Arron Gordon, George Hill et.c, all -3.2. Of course Carl landry and Quincy Acy were also right there, and so was Will Barton, so not sure I would lead with this stat.
In any case once you set the hype aside, its a damn hard argument to make that Davis is on another level than Cousins defensively. Can't do it with real numbers. Can't do it with metrics, on-off, player tracking numbers...its just not there beyond media getting excited by A.D.s shotblocking. But thing is that Boogie did well as a shotblocker last year too, and on top of that he adds an almost unique factor by leading the league in charges drawn. Something most bigs do almost none of at all. And a charge drawn has to be considered right up there with and maybe even superior to a blocked shot. I prefer blocks because they intimidate. But a charge drawn not only automatically gets you the ball back, but it puts a foul on the other player/team too. Its a real useful play, and Boogie is the best in the league at it.
Charges Drawn:
Cousns: 34 (#1)
ADavis: 1
Now as mentioned, if a charge taken is at least as valuable as a blocked shot, what if we just added those 34 charges to Boogie's block number to get a more accurate read at "defensive stops" if you will. All of a sudden those per 36 numbers become:
Cousns 1.6stl 2.5blk/chrg 10.1DReb
ADavis 1.5stl 2.9blk/chrg 7.7DReb
and now what do we think? We'll I'll tell you what I think: Davis has the obvious physical tools, or the physical tools we always go gaga over. The length. But Boogie has the strength, toughness and smarts/saavy. He's kind of a basketball genius you know, and physical power and league best hands are great traits to have too. Once he got some coaching and set himself the goal of learning defense, he's learned how to play it and then some. Because of the preferred super-length tool Davis likely has the most high end potential. Boogie is not especially tall for a center, not a huge leaper. But right now Cousins has made himself into one of the league's more effective big men defenders doing it his way, as always. And its a hard argument to make on anything other than hype/narrative that Davis is vastly superior. Its not there in the numbers at all.
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That stat largely takes the roaming into account and doesn't count it against guys. Def At Rim% only counts plays where the defender was within 5 feet of the hoop and 5 feet of the offensive player. In other words, it only counts the plays where Davis was NOT roaming.
That's one of those things about Davis's shotblocking game though. Big numbers, but he's not Deke back there. He gets a lot of swooping off the ball blocks. Put him in the traditional defend the rim position however and he's not dominant yet.
That's one of those things about Davis's shotblocking game though. Big numbers, but he's not Deke back there. He gets a lot of swooping off the ball blocks. Put him in the traditional defend the rim position however and he's not dominant yet.
I do think that Cousins was the slightly better defender last year, but I do think AD got much more room to grow (he is 22 after all).
The other thing is that while there are a lot of guys that can replicate Cousins skill on defense, AD is far more rare to find- and that in and of itself got great value (this is also a big part of why WCS has a high potential).
A guy that can be a rim protector, a weak side defender and a shut down one-on-one guy who can defend multiple positions (as his great -6.2 Opp FG Differential suggest) gives you a ton of added value and is much easier to build around.
And while Cousins is absolutely elite at what he does on defense (better than Davis) it is much more limited and I guess that's the case for Davis being more influential defensively on a team.
But to step aside from the AD-Cousins Comp, I think that Cousins showed one of the biggest leaps defensively I've seen a player do in a year last year and he absolutely proved that he has the defensive presence at center you can build a great system around- and frankly that is more than what I've ever expected.
The other thing is that while there are a lot of guys that can replicate Cousins skill on defense, AD is far more rare to find- and that in and of itself got great value (this is also a big part of why WCS has a high potential).
A guy that can be a rim protector, a weak side defender and a shut down one-on-one guy who can defend multiple positions (as his great -6.2 Opp FG Differential suggest) gives you a ton of added value and is much easier to build around.
And while Cousins is absolutely elite at what he does on defense (better than Davis) it is much more limited and I guess that's the case for Davis being more influential defensively on a team.
But to step aside from the AD-Cousins Comp, I think that Cousins showed one of the biggest leaps defensively I've seen a player do in a year last year and he absolutely proved that he has the defensive presence at center you can build a great system around- and frankly that is more than what I've ever expected.
What is this talk of Davis being able to guard multi-positions? If by Multi-positions you mean PF, C and some SF's then yeah....if your trying to extend this to him being able to defend guards as well, then I don't buy that. He's not like Draymond Green...he's not. And I suspect that WCS is going to be in the Green mold of guarding all positions. Now don't get bent out of shape as I think Davis is one of the best big men around but I don't buy into all the hype...... He's a top 10 guy. People should be saying that Davis is as good as Cousins, not the other way around.
You would though, given that you don't watch Kings games as regularly as us. To be fair, you are a good poster and pretty objective, so I can't exactly hold that against you. I love Davis, he's elite. But he can't do the things Cuz can do. AD is a freak athletically though, and that's his one advantage. Not to make light of AD, who is the second best young big in the league after Cuz. But if we didn't have the national narrative against Cuz, and all the writers doubling down on their idiotic predictions that Cuz will be a cancer, then Boogie would be pushed as more of a star than AD. National writes basically mould the opinions of most fans who don't [regularly] watch teams outside of their own.
Not that it's an outlandish position to take. Many (read: most) opposition fans would take AD over Cuz. I don't believe AD is better on either side of the ball, although defensively I definitely think he has a higher ceiling. And he looks like he's put on considerable mass, so he's going to be harder to move as his frame fills out.
But Cousins attitude and skill set make him a different beast.
Crap, this season is make or break for us. We need to be .500+ or we have another rebuilding job on our hands.
Not that it's an outlandish position to take. Many (read: most) opposition fans would take AD over Cuz. I don't believe AD is better on either side of the ball, although defensively I definitely think he has a higher ceiling. And he looks like he's put on considerable mass, so he's going to be harder to move as his frame fills out.
But Cousins attitude and skill set make him a different beast.
Crap, this season is make or break for us. We need to be .500+ or we have another rebuilding job on our hands.
Countering your post before this one, I was talking about contest percentage which is very low for Davis because he spends more of his time away from the rim than Cousins does.
Cousins is probably top 3 best defensive rebounder behind Jordan and Drummond. The two ahead of him pull down more contested rebounds per game which is an imperative stat to show who is the best rebounder. Cousins pulls down many uncontested rebounds compared to the others.
Contested REB/game Uncontested REB/game Contested REB Percentage
Deandre: 6.7 8.3 44.6%
Drummond: 6.6 6.9 49.1%
Cousins: 5.2 7.6 40.5%
Also the charges stat was a great point but Cousins also fouls a lot and is the lead leader in fouls per game which puts our team in bad positions. Davis doesnt have that problem. Cousins needs to improve that.
But most importantly, versatility is not a statistic. The better you can switch the better you can put the offense in chaos. Rick Carlisle was asked which big man is the current prototype for defensive versatility and it was Davis. Long arms, great foot speed, agility, and can guard all positions. Coaches continuely trying to find big men who can move their feet quickly, hedge on ball screens, contain ball handlers, and recover which Davis does plenty well at.
Cousins is probably top 3 best defensive rebounder behind Jordan and Drummond. The two ahead of him pull down more contested rebounds per game which is an imperative stat to show who is the best rebounder. Cousins pulls down many uncontested rebounds compared to the others.
Contested REB/game Uncontested REB/game Contested REB Percentage
Deandre: 6.7 8.3 44.6%
Drummond: 6.6 6.9 49.1%
Cousins: 5.2 7.6 40.5%
Also the charges stat was a great point but Cousins also fouls a lot and is the lead leader in fouls per game which puts our team in bad positions. Davis doesnt have that problem. Cousins needs to improve that.
But most importantly, versatility is not a statistic. The better you can switch the better you can put the offense in chaos. Rick Carlisle was asked which big man is the current prototype for defensive versatility and it was Davis. Long arms, great foot speed, agility, and can guard all positions. Coaches continuely trying to find big men who can move their feet quickly, hedge on ball screens, contain ball handlers, and recover which Davis does plenty well at.
I would bet a reasonably large sum of someone else's money that I have watched more Kings and Pelicans games than anyone on this board.
They main reason that I would take Davis over Cousins right now is his attitude. I know that is not popular on this board but Demarcus needs to learn to reign in his passion. He made great strides at the beginning of the year last year but he needs (and eventually will) do more.
They main reason that I would take Davis over Cousins right now is his attitude. I know that is not popular on this board but Demarcus needs to learn to reign in his passion. He made great strides at the beginning of the year last year but he needs (and eventually will) do more.
I just want to make you aware that you just told a Kings forum that, as a Jazz fan, you watch more Kings games than they (we) do. Surprising, since we have grades for each player each game, with the same people doing it, year in and year out. I'll readily admit I don't watch that many games because I am on the east coast and we suck too much to pony up money for league pass, but I would be willing to bet there are people here who watch every single game (the graders, for example). Now the Pelicans, there are quite a few who watch them as well, but you don't need to watch them all to know what Cousins and Davis can do. Watching more games doesn't necessarily make you any more correct than someone else. Davis vs Cousins is a debate that will go on for years. It's a great debate to have.
