JT wants to get traded (and other trade discussion)

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I would never put Dragic next to Collison in any lineups..maybe except late in the game.. The reason why he's even leaving PHX is because of that very reason.
He's leaving because he's ALWAYS in that situation.

Let him play start, with DC off the bench, first and third are his, parts of the second and fourth spent with DC spotting up in the corners, if that's not enough...well again there is a red flag there. Standard Euro red flag maybe. Bit of a princess? Can't handle even having a backup? But I doubt he's quite that bad.
 
He's leaving because he's ALWAYS in that situation.

Let him play start, with DC off the bench, first and third are his, parts of the second and fourth spent with DC spotting up in the corners, if that's not enough...well again there is a red flag there. Standard Euro red flag maybe. Bit of a princess? Can't handle even having a backup? But I doubt he's quite that bad.
Dragic is leaving because he wants to be the primary PG on a team. Even if they traded IT, sources say Dragic will still leave. I think Dragic is tired of sharing the ball with Bledsoe. I highly doubt Dragic would mind closing out games with Collison, but I'd probably try to stay away as much as I can with a 2PG lineup.
 
G

GQ_Gabriel

Guest
Can you close your eyes and imagine this line-up? :D

PG: Dragic ; Darren Collison
SG: Afflalo ; Ben McLemore
SF: Rudy Gay ; Wilson Chandler
PF: Nerlens Noel ; Reggie Evans / Landry
C: Demarcus Cousins ; Ryan Hollins (?)

I tried to be as realistically lunatic as possible. :p

I wonder if that team would be able to crack anything better than an 8th seed playoff position?
 
Can you close your eyes and imagine this line-up? :D

PG: Dragic ; Darren Collison
SG: Afflalo ; Ben McLemore
SF: Rudy Gay ; Wilson Chandler
PF: Nerlens Noel ; Reggie Evans / Landry
C: Demarcus Cousins ; Ryan Hollins (?)

I tried to be as realistically lunatic as possible. :p

I wonder if that team would be able to crack anything better than an 8th seed playoff position?
So we've traded JT, sessions, ray, nik, casspi and dwill for those guys? If possible, I liked you better when you were trying to spoon feed us PDAs nonsense.

#donttrysohard
 
G

GQ_Gabriel

Guest
So we've traded JT, sessions, ray, nik, casspi and dwill for those guys? If possible, I liked you better when you were trying to spoon feed us PDAs nonsense.

#donttrysohard
Yikes. I guess my text should have been in green. I was being sarcastic / ludicrous.

I can say that I like your personality over on realgm a lot better than here, sdballer. ;)

#ShakingMyHead
 
I wonder how much we've been bad mouthed to Dragic by a certain former King...

Also, is the allure of a new arena all that important to a player? I honestly have no idea.
 
Why would Philly do this? I thought the plan was to add a mid range game for Noel and to play him alongside Embiid.
On paper this looks like the perfect big man tandem and after a few years of development they shoud be ready to turn some heads in the east.
Nik just doesn't make sense. Their guards are solid and with a PG like MCW all they really need is a spot up shooter.
Do you really trade a franchise corner stone to add a spot up shooter?
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Why would Philly do this? I thought the plan was to add a mid range game for Noel and to play him alongside Embiid.
On paper this looks like the perfect big man tandem and after a few years of development they shoud be ready to turn some heads in the east.
Nik just doesn't make sense. Their guards are solid and with a PG like MCW all they really need is a spot up shooter.
Do you really trade a franchise corner stone to add a spot up shooter?
Is Nerlens Noel a franchise corner-stone though? He's not blowing up the league this season, though his numbers are sneaky good in specific ways. Ultimately I think he's a gifted but flawed youngster who's a unique defensive presence but probably won't ever have much offensive game. That's a perfect fit next to Cousins, the most talented scoring big man in the NBA currently, but will it be a perfect fit next to Embiid? I don't think they're sold on Nerlens enough to pass on Okafor or Towns when it comes to it and with good reason. If Embiid ends up being only a modest offensive presence in the post (he's got unlimited potential but a long long way to go to get there), they're in trouble with a zero-offense running mate like Noel.

And the trade isn't Noel for Stauskas. It's Noel for Stauskas and a top 10 pick -- which could be Willie Cauley-Stein, Myles Turner, Stanley Johnson, Justise Winslow. Any of those guys could be as valuable as Noel. Philadelphia's model so far has been stockpiling talent regardless of fit. Trading one top 10 talent for 2 top 10 talents fits that model. And if they do want to consider fit a little more at this point with Dario Saric ready to come over to the States soon and Embiid ready to hit the court, a SG who can shoot the lights out has to be at the very top of their wishlist.
 
I don't know if Noel is a cornerstone. But I do know, that athletic shotblockers with good defensive instincts are rare and have a high value. A SG who is able to spot up for 3's is all you need alongside MCW. And those guys are a lot cheaper than a defensive big man. I didn't consider the coming draft, cause I'm really not into college basketball and therefore am not able to rate any of the upcoming prospects. But even if you are right and you could replace Noel with a rookie - wouldn't it make sense to wait for the draft night to get this trade done? I just can't see it happen on the deadline. But maybe I misunderstood something here.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
I don't know if Noel is a cornerstone. But I do know, that athletic shotblockers with good defensive instincts are rare and have a high value. A SG who is able to spot up for 3's is all you need alongside MCW. And those guys are a lot cheaper than a defensive big man. I didn't consider the coming draft, cause I'm really not into college basketball and therefore am not able to rate any of the upcoming prospects. But even if you are right and you could replace Noel with a rookie - wouldn't it make sense to wait for the draft night to get this trade done? I just can't see it happen on the deadline. But maybe I misunderstood something here.
That's correct, the proposed Nerlens Noel deal involving Nik Stauskas and our pick was a draft-day trade not a trade-deadline trade.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Marc J. Spears ‏@SpearsNBAYahoo
Kings want Goran Dragic “bad,” source said.Sac could move Jason Thompson & Nik Stauskas to clear salary cap space for max offer in offseason
Eh...

Let's suppose we trade Thompson and Stauskas to get back an expiring contract, and we use the money to be freed up from that expiring and Williams' expiring to offer a max contract to Dragic. Suppose we get him; that's overpaying but, sure, he's a quality point guard, even with an exorbitant contract. Depending on what the salary cap is going to be next season, we'll have something between $3-7M to sign a starting quality PF and shore up the holes in the bench. Anybody got a plan of action for that?
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Before we go tripping over ourselves to clear out 10-15 million in cap space to replace a PG who averaged 16pts, 5.6asts, and 1.5 stls and shot 37% from three this season with a PG who averaged 16pts, 4asts, and 1 stl and shot 35% from three this season -- I just wanted to remind everyone that Amare Stoudamire was also 28 years old when he signed his max contract with New York. Is Dragic a quality PG? Sure. Can he backup the SG position? No. Is he going to improve our defense? Considering he's pushing Collison to the bench, probably not. Is it possible he'll never have a season as good as 2014 again? It's likely enough that I'd rather someone else take that chance (preferably New York, cause I do enjoy irony). You'd really have to try hard to think of a worse way for us to allocate our resources at this point than making a push to sign Dragic.
 
If getting Noel for Nik and some other asset is even a remote possibility I would be pretty upset to use Nik on what could be (a) a short dragic rental or (b) a dramatic overpay of dragic. I like dragic. I don't like him enough that I would want to blow such a sizable chunk of our cap space. His salary demand is kinda absurd.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Before we go tripping over ourselves to clear out 10-15 million in cap space to replace a PG who averaged 16pts, 5.6asts, and 1.5 stls and shot 37% from three this season with a PG who averaged 16pts, 4asts, and 1 stl and shot 35% from three this season -- I just wanted to remind everyone that Amare Stoudamire was also 28 years old when he signed his max contract with New York. Is Dragic a quality PG? Sure. Can he backup the SG position? No. Is he going to improve our defense? Considering he's pushing Collison to the bench, probably not. Is it possible he'll never have a season as good as 2014 again? It's likely enough that I'd rather someone else take that chance (preferably New York, cause I do enjoy irony). You'd really have to try hard to think of a worse way for us to allocate our resources at this point than making a push to sign Dragic.
I'm not even particularly for acquiring Goran Dragic but...

Everyone in the NBA over the age of 28 has been 28 years old at some point in their career and a large majority of them have signed contracts after reaching that age. I'd even venture to say that most of these dudes have gone on to have a good half-decade or so of solid basketball in them after that particular year in their lives. The prime of an NBA player's career is generally considered to come around in their mid- to late- twenties and last on up through their early thirties. Might Dragic not be as good come the end of a max contract as he is now before it? Sure. But he's probably not going to be mired in suckitude either.

You cite Dragic's numbers being worse than Collison's but fail to mention the quagmire that has led to Goran wanting to move teams in the first place. When he was running the show/not fighting IT and Gerald Green for the ball every possession, Dragic played like a bonafide all-star. Unfortunately, this season, he's been stuck in a four-way melee for playing time with Eric Bledsoe, Isaiah "Heroball" Thomas, and Gerald "Don't call me Donte" Green. Put him next to a more traditional shooting guard and his numbers probably rise back up a bit.

Also, Stoudemire came into the NBA as a high school player, blew out his knees very early into his career, and had almost lost sight in one of his eyes by that point in his career so he was a particularly old 28-year-old.
 
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I would never put Dragic next to Collison in any lineups..maybe except late in the game.. The reason why he's even leaving PHX is because of that very reason.
The reason he is leaving PHX is because he is being played off the ball more than on the ball.
Last season with the Clippers Collison and Paul played a lot of minutes together and DC played off the ball in those situations.
In PHX both Bledsoe and IT handle the ball more than Dragić.

In our set up Dragić would handle more than DC
 
Eh...

Let's suppose we trade Thompson and Stauskas to get back an expiring contract, and we use the money to be freed up from that expiring and Williams' expiring to offer a max contract to Dragic. Suppose we get him; that's overpaying but, sure, he's a quality point guard, even with an exorbitant contract. Depending on what the salary cap is going to be next season, we'll have something between $3-7M to sign a starting quality PF and shore up the holes in the bench. Anybody got a plan of action for that?
rather see them use some of that $$ and go try to bring whiteside back than dragic. we'd have a mobile rim protector. DC is a solid PG. that's what we need from that position.
 
Half-baked thought ...

McLemore is to much to surrender for Dragic. Stauskas is (likely) to little to surrender for Dragic.

Plumlee + Dragic for McLemore and Williams. Do the Suns consider that? depends on how they view McLemore. Suns have been trying to get a 1st for Plumlee but that isn't happening. Kings can go to the table and say Dragic may not sign here, so we need Plumlee to ensure the Kings won't come away from this deal with nothing. There can be other moving pieces to sweeten the pot for Phoenix, but the principles of the deal are McLemore for 30 games of Dragic and an underperforming Plumlee. Another team will be able to blow that offer out of the water with draft picks and whatnot, but will a team do that with how stubborn Dragic is being? Is a mid-lottery pick from Boston more valuable to Pheonix then McLemore?

Then the Kings go to Denver and offer them Stauskas/filler for Afflalo/filler.

The Kings take a major gamble by potentially losing Afflalo and Dragic in free agency, but this team hasn't been afraid to gamble in the past.
 
I hate to lose either Nik (remember, he's just a rookie) OR Ben, but would give up one if we somehow get Afflalo and Dragic. But both? That's an awfully big gamble with future assets for the expiring contract situations we'd be taking on, especially with asset-heavy teams like the Lakers openly interested in throwing big dollars at Dragic.

I think Rudy's getting burned (part of his decision was based on his regard for Malone) by the FO may have seriously diminished the social capital we have to gamble with...as it should. I hope we pursue Afflalo, but let Dragic pass on to wherever he wants to be.

Half-baked thought ...

McLemore is to much to surrender for Dragic. Stauskas is (likely) to little to surrender for Dragic.

...

Then the Kings go to Denver and offer them Stauskas/filler for Afflalo/filler.

The Kings take a major gamble by potentially losing Afflalo and Dragic in free agency, but this team hasn't been afraid to gamble in the past.
 
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hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
I'm not even particularly for acquiring Goran Dragic but...

Everyone in the NBA over the age of 28 has been 28 years old at some point in their career and a large majority of them have signed contracts after reaching that age. I'd even venture to say that most of these dudes have gone on to have a good half-decade or so of solid basketball in them after that particular year in their lives. The prime of an NBA player's career is generally considered to come around in their mid- to late- twenties and last on up through their early thirties. Might Dragic not be as good come the end of a max contract as he is now before it? Sure. But he's probably not going to be mired in suckitude either.

You cite Dragic's numbers being worse than Collison's but fail to mention the quagmire that has led to Goran wanting to move teams in the first place. When he was running the show/not fighting IT and Gerald Green for the ball every possession, Dragic played like a bonafide all-star. Unfortunately, this season, he's been stuck in a four-way melee for playing time with Eric Bledsoe, Isaiah "Heroball" Thomas, and Gerald "Don't call me Donte" Green. Put him next to a more traditional shooting guard and his numbers probably rise back up a bit.

Also, Stoudemire came into the NBA as a high school player, blew out his knees very early into his career, and had almost lost sight in one of his eyes by that point in his career so he was a particularly old 28-year-old.
Stoudamire is a worst-case scenario, but the point is you have to be very careful when offering big money contracts to aging players, particularly when they've only had great success on one team, in one system. I think people forget how young he still was when New York maxed him out. Take a quick look at Stoudamire's career stats and tell me the dropoff from age 29 to age 32 doesn't scare you to death. This is a guy who made 6 All Star teams by age 28 and was consistently putting up 20 and 8. He was completely done at age 30, not 33 or 34.

What you fail to mention is that Phoenix essentially played gimmick-ball last season and allowed Dragic to do whatever he wanted because Bledsoe missed half the season and their best excuse for a #2 scorer was Gerald freaking Green. Dragic wouldn't even be a #2 option on Sacramento, he'd be a distant #3 and probably wouldn't handle the ball a lot more than he does now with Cousins and Rudy both being high-usage scorers who like to create from the high post area. His success in Phoenix last season is unsustainable even on a team that needs a high usage PG, which we are not.

More importantly, Dragic played like an All Star in exactly one season to date. That does not make him worthy of a max contract or anything close to one. With the other needs we have on our team, devoting a huge chunk of salary to a PG who isn't substantially better than the guy we already have all but guarantees we won't be able to fill the other holes we have in our roster -- who is your starting PF, backup C, backup SG, sixth man? Dragic doesn't help to fill any of those holes. You mentioned yourself that an NBA player's prime is typically their mid 20's to early 30s. Dragic is going to be 29 next season and he's about to wrap up a season when he played worse than the guy we already have. This is a bet you want to take? Because he played one season in a PG heavy offense, nearly made the All Star team, and won Most Improved player in his age 28 season? His career averages are 12 and 4.5 and people want to bet on one fluke season sustaining itself into his 30s? That's beyond crazy.

Look what happened to Igoudala after he signed a big contract with Golden State. In year 2 of that 48 million dollar deal he's currently averaging 7 pts, 3rebs, and 3asts off the bench. At age 30 Deron Williams is borderline untradeable in year 3 of a 98 million dollar deal he signed with Brooklyn. Stoudamire has been the worst contract in the league almost as soon as he signed with New York. Josh Smith was so bad in Detroit they're now paying him 13 million a year to play for someone else. Gerald Wallace signed a 40 million dollar deal with Brooklyn at age 29 and he's been awful ever since. Remember even our own Peja Stojakovic had exactly one good (not great) season after signing a 5 year deal with New Orleans at age 29. All of these guys signed their big contracts at around the same age as Dragic and they had much stronger track records at the time. Are there exceptions? Sure, but the guys who continue to excel as they age into their 30s are almost always multiple All-Stars and Hall-of-Famers. The track record for borderline All Stars signing big money deals in their late 20s is a horror show.
 
I've been a big fan of Dragic but my spellcheck keeps substituting "tragic". It has gotta be a God thing. So I'm tempering my enthusiasm about Goran, although I think a pg with his size and skills - along with DMC and Rudy - that is a playoff run team imo.

But, Goran is acting like a bit of a prima donna. Let the Knicks or Laker fans grind him for a couple years and see how he feels then.
 
G

GQ_Gabriel

Guest
I've been a big fan of Dragic but my spellcheck keeps substituting "tragic". It has gotta be a God thing. So I'm tempering my enthusiasm about Goran, although I think a pg with his size and skills - along with DMC and Rudy - that is a playoff run team imo.

But, Goran is acting like a bit of a prima donna. Let the Knicks or Laker fans grind him for a couple years and see how he feels then.
As much as I would hate to lose Ben McLemore, whom has a bright future in this league, that's what it would take to obtain Dragic, in my opinion. It would hurt to let him go, but ultimately it's a trade you make. Dragic is just an absolute stud.
 
Stoudamire is a worst-case scenario, but the point is you have to be very careful when offering big money contracts to aging players, particularly when they've only had great success on one team, in one system. I think people forget how young he still was when New York maxed him out. Take a quick look at Stoudamire's career stats and tell me the dropoff from age 29 to age 32 doesn't scare you to death. This is a guy who made 6 All Star teams by age 28 and was consistently putting up 20 and 8. He was completely done at age 30, not 33 or 34.

What you fail to mention is that Phoenix essentially played gimmick-ball last season and allowed Dragic to do whatever he wanted because Bledsoe missed half the season and their best excuse for a #2 scorer was Gerald freaking Green. Dragic wouldn't even be a #2 option on Sacramento, he'd be a distant #3 and probably wouldn't handle the ball a lot more than he does now with Cousins and Rudy both being high-usage scorers who like to create from the high post area. His success in Phoenix last season is unsustainable even on a team that needs a high usage PG, which we are not.

More importantly, Dragic played like an All Star in exactly one season to date. That does not make him worthy of a max contract or anything close to one. With the other needs we have on our team, devoting a huge chunk of salary to a PG who isn't substantially better than the guy we already have all but guarantees we won't be able to fill the other holes we have in our roster -- who is your starting PF, backup C, backup SG, sixth man? Dragic doesn't help to fill any of those holes. You mentioned yourself that an NBA player's prime is typically their mid 20's to early 30s. Dragic is going to be 29 next season and he's about to wrap up a season when he played worse than the guy we already have. This is a bet you want to take? Because he played one season in a PG heavy offense, nearly made the All Star team, and won Most Improved player in his age 28 season? His career averages are 12 and 4.5 and people want to bet on one fluke season sustaining itself into his 30s? That's beyond crazy.

Look what happened to Igoudala after he signed a big contract with Golden State. In year 2 of that 48 million dollar deal he's currently averaging 7 pts, 3rebs, and 3asts off the bench. At age 30 Deron Williams is borderline untradeable in year 3 of a 98 million dollar deal he signed with Brooklyn. Stoudamire has been the worst contract in the league almost as soon as he signed with New York. Josh Smith was so bad in Detroit they're now paying him 13 million a year to play for someone else. Gerald Wallace signed a 40 million dollar deal with Brooklyn at age 29 and he's been awful ever since. Remember even our own Peja Stojakovic had exactly one good (not great) season after signing a 5 year deal with New Orleans at age 29. All of these guys signed their big contracts at around the same age as Dragic and they had much stronger track records at the time. Are there exceptions? Sure, but the guys who continue to excel as they age into their 30s are almost always multiple All-Stars and Hall-of-Famers. The track record for borderline All Stars signing big money deals in their late 20s is a horror show.
In Iggy's case I don't think the stats tell the entire story. Watching GS play you can see the value that he brings to the team. A lot of intangibles and good defense.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
In Iggy's case I don't think the stats tell the entire story. Watching GS play you can see the value that he brings to the team. A lot of intangibles and good defense.
... for 12 million dollars a year (aka 20% of the salary cap).