Looking Ahead to Next Season...

twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#151
#151
rainmaker said:
It's silly until you stand 5ft away from the guy and he's practically the same exact height as the 5'6" person I was with.

Yet, you haven't stood next to him. Go stand next to him, then get back to me. But generally, I really don't care how much stock you put in four guys with measuring tape who can't agree on his height either.

And don't make me start correcting your posts. You apparently don't know what the word "incorrect" means, nor how to use it in a sentence.
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That's a very sneaky way to try and diminish the measurements, but it can easily be explained. Thomas has been "measured" 4 times. I put measured in quotations because sometimes they simply ask the player "What's your height?"

The first "measurement" was in 2009 at the Deron Williams Camp (Thomas was 20 years old). They listed him at 5'9.5" in shoes.
The second "measurement" was in 2011 at the Nets Workout (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'10.5" in shoes.
The third "measurement" was in 2011 at the Deron Williams Camp (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'11" in shoes.
The fourth "measurement" was in 2011 at the NBA Draft Combine (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'10.25" in shoes.

In the span of two years, it appears that Thomas grew 1 inch. Is it hard to believe that a 20 year old grew 1 inch in two years? I don't think so.

All three of his 2011 measurements are very close to one another (within .75 inches). That's pretty good. External variables could include the shoes he was wearing, the equipment that was used to measure him, if he was straining his body as much as possible to measure out taller, etc. There are many things that can affect the measurement; however, they don't jeopardize the general validity of the measurement.

Considering the Deron Williams Camp didn't measure him without shoes, we only have two sets of measurements to use. He measured 5'8.75" without shoes at the NBA Draft Combine in 2011 and 5'9" without shoes at the Nets Workout in 2011. That's within .25 inches! That seems pretty justifiable to me. So you see, when we have someone who comes on here and says that Thomas is 5'7", can you see why that is difficult for us to take at face value? You can believe he's 5'7" all you want, but the measurements say otherwise.
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#152
#152
twslam07 said:
...Considering the Deron Williams Camp didn't measure him without shoes, we only have two sets of measurements to use. He measured 5'8.75" without shoes at the NBA Draft Combine in 2011 and 5'9" without shoes at the Nets Workout. That's within .25 inches! That seems pretty justifiable to me. So you see, when we have someone who comes on here and says that Thomas is 5'7", can you see why that is difficult for us to take at face value? You can believe he's 5'7" all you want, but the measurements say otherwise.
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But he's still freaking SHORT!
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#153
#153
VF21 said:
Considering the variance in measurements, I'll choose the eyeballing, especially when I know for a fact how tall some of the people are who have stood next to him ... but I concede that it's not the perfect solution.
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I just explained the reason for the variance in my reply to rainmaker, but even if the variance is what pushes you away from believing the measurements, wouldn't you think the range of measurements would capture that 5'7" height that rainmaker has mentioned?
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#155
#155
twslam07 said:
I just explained the reason for the variance in my reply to rainmaker, but even if the variance is what pushes you away from believing the measurements, wouldn't you think the range of measurements would capture that 5'7" height that rainmaker has mentioned?
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I'm not totally wrapped up in the numbers. I'm more concerned with what it means to have a point guard who is considerably shorter than his counterparts on opposing teams. That's the bottom line...

And for the record? I do think his actual height is shorter than generally reported. And that's because of the relative height of people who have stood next to him and AREN'T being judged or rated at least in part because of some numbers on a measuring tape.

Also, you acknowledge that you do not know if they actually measured him or if they just asked his height. His trainer, manager, etc. could easily have fudged a bit on the numbers. Again, though, that doesn't matter as much as how his height - whatever the numbers - impacts his play and effectiveness on the court.
 
P

peacelate

Bench
#159
#159
VF21 said:
I'm not totally wrapped up in the numbers. I'm more concerned with what it means to have a point guard who is considerably shorter than his counterparts on opposing teams. That's the bottom line...

And for the record? I do think his actual height is shorter than generally reported. And that's because of the relative height of people who have stood next to him and AREN'T being judged or rated at least in part because of some numbers on a measuring tape.

Also, you acknowledge that you do not know if they actually measured him or if they just asked his height. His trainer, manager, etc. could easily have fudged a bit on the numbers. Again, though, that doesn't matter as much as how his height - whatever the numbers - impacts his play and effectiveness on the court.
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Well, to be fair, you would have to know the height of the other person is accurate also.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#160
#160
VF21 said:
I'm not totally wrapped up in the numbers. I'm more concerned with what it means to have a point guard who is considerably shorter than his counterparts on opposing teams. That's the bottom line...

And for the record? I do think his actual height is shorter than generally reported. And that's because of the relative height of people who have stood next to him and AREN'T being judged or rated at least in part because of some numbers on a measuring tape.

Also, you acknowledge that you do not know if they actually measured him or if they just asked his height. His trainer, manager, etc. could easily have fudged a bit on the numbers. Again, though, that doesn't matter as much as how his height - whatever the numbers - impacts his play and effectiveness on the court.
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True, I did acknowledge that. However, the NBA Draft Combine is different, and his NBA Draft Combine numbers don't suggest he is 5'7".
 
macadocious

macadocious

Starter
#162
#162
NBA players heights are grossly over exaggerated. I stood next to Bibby at Thundervalley years ago. I'm 5-11.5 on a good day and I had an inch or two on him. And he was listed at 6-2. Until he moved I saw Bobby Jackson weekly, he was listed at 6-1, I had 3-4 inches on him. My buddy who is 6-2 towered over Bjax.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#163
#163
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#164
#164
twslam07 said:
I find it very difficult to discredit four separate measurements who have him all within a similar range (5'9.5"-5'11") because someone stood next to him and guessed his height at 5'7". It's just plain silly.

I don't blame you for not giving a s***if I trust you or not, but when I see incorrect information brought forth, I tend to refute it.
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I'm 6'1" and have had the pleasure of standing close to the Pizza Guy. If the man is 5'10" in shoes, then I'm 6'4"
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#166
#166
twslam07 said:
That's a very sneaky way to try and diminish the measurements, but it can easily be explained. Thomas has been "measured" 4 times. I put measured in quotations because sometimes they simply ask the player "What's your height?"

The first "measurement" was in 2009 at the Deron Williams Camp (Thomas was 20 years old). They listed him at 5'9.5" in shoes.
The second "measurement" was in 2011 at the Nets Workout (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'10.5" in shoes.
The third "measurement" was in 2011 at the Deron Williams Camp (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'11" in shoes.
The fourth "measurement" was in 2011 at the NBA Draft Combine (Thomas was 22 years old). They listed him at 5'10.25" in shoes.

In the span of two years, it appears that Thomas grew 1 inch. Is it hard to believe that a 20 year old grew 1 inch in two years? I don't think so.

All three of his 2011 measurements are very close to one another (within .75 inches). That's pretty good. External variables could include the shoes he was wearing, the equipment that was used to measure him, if he was straining his body as much as possible to measure out taller, etc. There are many things that can affect the measurement; however, they don't jeopardize the general validity of the measurement.

Considering the Deron Williams Camp didn't measure him without shoes, we only have two sets of measurements to use. He measured 5'8.75" without shoes at the NBA Draft Combine in 2011 and 5'9" without shoes at the Nets Workout in 2011. That's within .25 inches! That seems pretty justifiable to me. So you see, when we have someone who comes on here and says that Thomas is 5'7", can you see why that is difficult for us to take at face value? You can believe he's 5'7" all you want, but the measurements say otherwise.
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Two years ago at summer league I stood right next to Thomas behind the Kings bench. He was in street clothes. He wasn't playing that summer but had shown up to support the team. I believe he was still working on his degree from Washington. I'm presently just under 5'11". Thomas was at least 3 inches, if not more shorter than me. Now all those measurements can say whatever they want, but I know for a fact that he's not over 5'8" in shoes, if that. I don't have an agenda here. I'm just giving you straight info. Now if you want to say he grew a couple of inches between then and now, so be it.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#167
#167
I suppose the exact IT height really doesn't matter as long as the same distortions are applied across the board. If he's 2 inches shorter, but so is everybody else in the league, then relatively they are all about in the same relationship. Whether he's 5'7", 5'9" or 5'11" really only matters if his true size is misreported, but nobody else's is.
 
R

randymoss1881

Starter
#168
#168
It's starts in high school with the height thing. I played high school and got a physical where I was measured at 6'1 with shows I log on to max preps to see the roster and I'm somehow 6'3. Now my friend plays high school ball this year they have him listed at 6'3 and I tower over him at 6'2.
 
H

HighFlyingMonkey

Starter
#169
#169
Hey guys, I *swear* I stood next to Rudy Gay the other day, I'm 5'7 and we were the same height. Never mind that he was measured, you know, with a *ruler* at 6'7, everyone should trust me because I pinky promise I saw it :rolleyes:
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#170
#170
Can't we all just agree that he's short?
His exact numbers don't matter - we can assume they're fudged. They almost always are. Each time we see him lineup against the opposing team's PG, we can see that he's short, and that the size difference causes a detriment. Whether it's because he's 5'11" or 5'8" (with or without shoes, boots, lifts, etc.) doesn't really change the issue.

Long live TDOS!
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#171
#171
Lets just all admit that there are people here that will never give IT a fair shake because of his height. And yes IT is about 5'8 in shoes. I am taller than he is and I am about 5'10 - 5'11 in shoes. Top of his head came up to about my eye level. Who cares... He can play better than any of us here, and he's a 20ppg scorer in the NB(freaking)A. He's very good at what he does.

I prefer that he be a 6th man here because he totally fits the bill as what you would consider a 6th man to be. As for starter? Not sure.. Certainly not RayMac. He's not even close to being ready.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#172
#172
Spike said:
Can't we all just agree that he's short?
His exact numbers don't matter - we can assume they're fudged. They almost always are. Each time we see him lineup against the opposing team's PG, we can see that he's short, and that the size difference causes a detriment. Whether it's because he's 5'11" or 5'8" (with or without shoes, boots, lifts, etc.) doesn't really change the issue.

Long live TDOS!
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indeed. i don't know why the need for all of this hand-wringing over isaiah thomas' exact measurements. he's quite short by nba standards. we all know it. we've seen thomas labor to deliver entry passes to cousins in the post. we've seen opposing PG's shoot right over the top of him. we've seen him get caught up on screens and get bowled over by bigger guards. yet he's still a really talented player. when it's all said and done, he may be one of the best mini's in the history of the league. but his size remains a limiting factor, whether he's considered a starter or a sixth man, and no matter where he plays...
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#177
#177
Kingster said:
It means that there are tons of guys in the NBA much taller than him that can't finish like him in the paint, that can't get their shot off, that can't defend as well as he can. It's not how big you are; it's how big you play.
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He plays defense at the level of his height no matter what it is and defense is 1/2 the game.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#178
#178
Kingster said:
It means that there are tons of guys in the NBA much taller than him that can't finish like him in the paint, that can't get their shot off, that can't defend as well as he can. It's not how big you are; it's how big you play.
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That makes sense if you've never played sports and are completely ignorant to the role height/size plays in sports.

There's a reason TE's/WR's/CB's/ QB's in football are a certain height. There's a reason taller swimmers are generally more successful. There's a reason height is important in volleyball. There's a reason height is a factor for pitchers in baseball. And there damn well is a reason height is important in basketball. If height didn't matter we'd probably have a few 6'7" guys who've led the NBA in blocked shots, yet height/length has always been a prerequisite for success in that area.

There's nothing which says IT can't succeed in certain aspects of the game, but he's clearly at a disadvantage in other aspects.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#179
#179
As someone who considers himself neutral in the "IT wars," I think there's an honest debate to be had whether, despite his height, IT is at least a serviceable defender when compared to most point guards, and can be a part of a good team defensive scheme. What I've seen mostly are assumptions and anecdotal observations. Unfortunately, the stats on this thing aren't really useful, either, so we are where we are.

I think our defensive woes will eventually be solved, if they are, outside in, and by establishing more cohesion and better rotations. What the numbers do show is that bigs have a much bigger impact on a team's defense than guards. My concern with IT is more about the other end, whether he's the ideal fit to run an offense centered around DMC (and, for the time being, I'm placing any consideration of Rudy Gay on hold until his contract situation is resolved).
 
H

HighFlyingMonkey

Starter
#180
#180
Spike said:
Can't we all just agree that he's short?
His exact numbers don't matter - we can assume they're fudged. They almost always are. Each time we see him lineup against the opposing team's PG, we can see that he's short, and that the size difference causes a detriment. Whether it's because he's 5'11" or 5'8" (with or without shoes, boots, lifts, etc.) doesn't really change the issue.

Long live TDOS!
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Sure, and in the same spirit lets allow the belief that the world is flat to go unchallenged as long as we all agree that we can live on it :p

I don't particularly care about the handwringing over Isaiah's exact height. What I do know is that a multibillion dollar business puts on the official combine to get accurate measurements so its affiliates can make multimillion dollar decisions on these kids. Any particular manager/coach/etc. tampering with the measurements compromises the entire system, and I doubt said multimillion dollar affiliates would allow for inaccurate information that could possibly jeopardize their decisions.

So I'm sorry if someone on the internet swearing that Isaiah is any particular height based on an eyeball estimate and their own height (which for all we know came from a hand-drawn height chart on their bedroom door) doesn't exactly trump the combine measurements. We have verified official facts on record, and yet people hilariously continue to search for ways said facts could be incorrect instead of investigating the basis of their own beliefs.
 
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