[Grades] Grades v. Warriors 2/19/2014

[Chubbs]

Hrdboild summed things up well.

This is a mess, and it's getting worse. We've almost switched out the entire Petrie era at this point. And, well, it looks the same. Pickup ball. I don't think our pg can run anything else. It's loser ball. The lack of an offense or anything resembling organized basketball is really disturbing. I don't understand what Malone is doing. There's been no culture change, no growth, no defense, and no sense there's a plan. Just mix up the players, yet the same kind of basketball keeps being played. I have to check from time to time to make Smart didn't sneak back into the head coaching spot.

Even the most casual fans knows our pg will never give Ben a chance. People bash Ben nightly but when he gets 4 shots? What the heck is that? That's the future right there. PDA and Malone have both said so. Can we back up the talk of developing him at least a little? Or let our pg know? Introduce him to Ben maybe?

Malone talks a good game about playing for each other, etc, but this is a me first team. Just like the last 4-5 seasons. It's amazing how the parts change yet nothing changes.

As hrdboild said, this is a team that looks like it's built to fail. But what could possibly happen between the end of this season to next to change anything? (Hint: not Jarrett Jack, please not Jarrett Jack). There are special talents in this draft, but there's no Lebron, no Duncan, no shaq, not even an iverson. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see guys that can take a losing team to a winning team just by stepping on the court. Not at age 19/20 or younger. That seems to be the hope and a prayer right now as we run out a team built to lose. I'm fine with the losing, but they need to playing winning basketball in the process. Pickup basketball is not winning basketball and it just further drives home some bad habits.

I'm not so sure we are any closer to a winning team that the day the ownership changed. Whatever the plan is, it's becoming tougher to see every day.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Thomas shot 9-17...why is he grouped in there as if he wasn't efficient shooting the ball?

Because that is not how I grouped them. That was not not the actual purpose of the grouping: that is just coincidence. When I am illustrating how the point guard did an inadequate job of distributing the basketball, I am not going to group his shooting numbers with the people he did not pass to, because his shooting numbers are not relevant to why he did not give them the ball more...

 

[Kingster]

Because that is not how I grouped them. That was not not the actual purpose of the grouping: that is just coincidence. When I am illustrating how the point guard did an inadequate job of distributing the basketball, I am not going to group his shooting numbers with the people he did not pass to, because his shooting numbers are not relevant to why he did not give them the ball more...

What you don't seem to comprehend is that there are four other potential distributors of the basketball other than the point guard on the court for every possession. The point guard may make a pass, but with this group, that is typically the final pass of the possession. It's not up to the point guard to create a shot for every player of the team on every possession. It's also up to the 2, 3, 4 and even 5 to do that as well. If you rewatch the game you can see GS did a very good job of that. The Kings didn't.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What you don't seem to comprehend is that the point guard influences where his teammates are on the court when they get the pass to make the pass. If the point guard is inclined to hold onto the ball (and ours is), then the other four guys are disinclined to rotate to positions that are agreeable to them making good passes.

What you also don't seem to understand, or else, willfully ignore, is the point guard's propensity for not giving the ball up until late in the shot clock, which doesn't give his teammates many options, other than to take a bad shot, or commit a turnover.

 

[ESP47]

Because that is not how I grouped them. That was not not the actual purpose of the grouping: that is just coincidence. When I am illustrating how the point guard did an inadequate job of distributing the basketball, I am not going to group his shooting numbers with the people he did not pass to, because his shooting numbers are not relevant to why he did not give them the ball more...

Ok I get it now after rereading it.

Did you actually watch the game? This wasn't a game of wide open players being ignored by IT and Gay chucking the ball. The guys were literally just standing around the entire time. Once they got the ball they would try a move and when that wouldn't work they would give the ball back to IT or Gay like saying "Here...you do something with it" and then just stand out of the way and watch.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Ok I get it now after rereading it.

Did you actually watch the game? This wasn't a game of wide open players being ignored by IT and Gay chucking the ball. The guys were literally just standing around the entire time. Once they got the ball they would try a move and when that wouldn't work they would give the ball back to IT or Gay like saying "Here...you do something with it" and then just stand out of the way and watch.

Is the point guard not "the coach on the floor"? If the guys are just standing around then that means either

1. They are not running the plays, or
2. The plays are not working.

In either case, whose job is it to call an "audible," if you will, and tell the guys to move their asses?

 

[ESP47]

He's more like the quarterback. If guys aren't open, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. You don't give a guy the ball back with the shot clock winding down and expect him to call a new play and run it.

We've seen IT play selfishly more than we'd like this season but last nights game was a team effort in suckage. It wasn't just one guy. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Kingster]

What you don't seem to comprehend is that the point guard influences where his teammates are on the court when they get the pass to make the pass. If the point guard is inclined to hold onto the ball (and ours is), then the other four guys are disinclined to rotate to positions that are agreeable to them making good passes.

What you also don't seem to understand, or else, willfully ignore, is the point guard's propensity for not giving the ball up until late in the shot clock, which doesn't give his teammates many options, other than to take a bad shot, or commit a turnover.

It's amazing how much power the point guard has in your mind. He can control the movement of every teamate on every possession.

Nope. The point guard is passing the ball to other players who aren't passing or creating for themselves or for others. No wonder you are down on IT. You think the point guard is responsible for every pass (or not) on the floor. Oftentimes the point guard isn't even part of the play on many possessions. He will simply dribble up the floor, give the ball to a player, and then run to spread the floor. You seem to disregard this fact.

 

[King-Da-Yah]

I realize 30 wins by season end is not the most realistic prediction, but color me optimistic this team gets better by seasons end. I can't get on board with this "new owners, new coach, same problems" stuff.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He's more like the quarterback. If guys aren't open, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. You don't give a guy the ball back with the shot clock winding down and expect him to call a new play and run it.

We've seen IT play selfishly more than we'd like this season but last nights game was a team effort in suckage. It wasn't just one guy. That's all I'm saying.

I don't recall saying it was just one guy. I don't even recall devoting most of the words of my post to that one guy. I am quite certain I did otherwise, in fact.

And that speaks precisely to the issue I mentioned in the [Game] thread, when someone asked why there was so much critical discussion of Thomas, compared to Gay, or Thompson, or whomever: because, when Gay gets criticized, nobody appears out of the ether to say, "Yeah, but..." I'm sure you read what I had to say about Gay but, apparently, all you took from that post was "H8R!"

And it's not like I said, "HE IS TEH SUX0R~! HES SO SHORT LOL~!!!!111!!" I'm not letting my criticism go unchallenged when I know I didn't say anything that wasn't true. And there are a lot of other posters who feel the same way, and that's why there so much Isaiah Thomas discussion around here.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It's amazing how much power the point guard has in your mind. He can control the movement of every teamate on every possession.

You mean, I think that the guy who dominates the ball gets to control where the guys who don't have the ball go, if they want to get the ball? Funny how that works.

Nope. The point guard is passing the ball to other players who aren't passing or creating for themselves or for others. No wonder you are down on IT. You think the point guard is responsible for every pass (or not) on the floor. Oftentimes the point guard isn't even part of the play on many possessions. He will simply dribble up the floor, give the ball to a player, and then run to spread the floor. You seem to disregard this fact.

Not disregarded at all. To the contrary, my contention is that the ball moved better, and the offense flowed better, when Thomas did precisely that.

 

[ESP47]

I don't recall saying it was just one guy. I don't even recall devoting most of the words of my post to that one guy. I am quite certain I did otherwise, in fact.

And that speaks precisely to the issue I mentioned in the [Game] thread, when someone asked why there was so much critical discussion of Thomas, compared to Gay, or Thompson, or whomever: because, when Gay gets criticized, nobody appears out of the ether to say, "Yeah, but..." I'm sure you read what I had to say about Gay but, apparently, all you took from that post was "H8R!"

And it's not like I said, "HE IS TEH SUX0R~! HES SO SHORT LOL~!!!!111!!" I'm not letting my criticism go unchallenged when I know I didn't say anything that wasn't true. And there are a lot of other posters who feel the same way, and that's why there so much Isaiah Thomas discussion around here.

Whats with the condescending attitude? The team sucks right now. We've known it for a long time. You're acting like you just found out this morning. You're just constantly swinging away at this dead horse that's been dead for a long time now. You've just made numerous posts about that one guy and then you turn around and say you weren't talking about that one guy. Look we know what we've got with this team.

Cousins = crazy.
Gay = not a #1 option.
Thomas = play not conducive to winning.
Everyone else = who cares.

That's our team. Just deal with it and stop going all crazy on the posters here because they don't agree with your condescending message.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Not disregarded at all. To the contrary, my contention is that the ball moved better, and the offense flowed better, when Thomas did precisely that.

I would disagree there. The offense was brutal last night, and there was practically no movement, but when Isaiah gave the ball off in the half court last night, most of the time he was giving it off to Rudy just inside the arc - and at that point the offense started looking worse. At any rate, we're an entirely different offensive team with DeMarcus in the game. There's a *chance* of a team game in that case. Take DeMarcus out, and it's basically either Rudy or IT going one-on-one, and Rudy lost that head-to-head last night.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Whats with the condescending attitude? The team sucks right now. We've known it for a long time.

Are you new here?

You've just made numerous posts about that one guy and then you turn around and say you weren't talking about that one guy.

No I didn't. I made one post, about two guys, half of which was, apparently, invisible. I have then spent the rest of my time in this thread replying to people who replied to me. Perhaps you and Kingster feel as though, if you replied to me, that I would just walk away, with my head held down, with sad music playing in the background; you may need to manage your expectations.

 

[pshn80]

Ben has to start showing something to alleviate growing concern

My concern has already grown.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I would disagree there. The offense was brutal last night, and there was practically no movement, but when Isaiah gave the ball off in the half court last night, most of the time he was giving it off to Rudy just inside the arc - and at that point the offense started looking worse. At any rate, we're an entirely different offensive team with DeMarcus in the game. There's a *chance* of a team game in that case. Take DeMarcus out, and it's basically either Rudy or IT going one-on-one, and Rudy lost that head-to-head last night.

Gay played like trash, no question about it. The fact that he didn't have 12+ free throws is ****ing ridiculous. And, to be fair to Thomas, the fact that Gay utterly failed to do his job factored heavily into Thomas failing to do his job.

 

[pshn80]

What you don't seem to comprehend is that the point guard influences where his teammates are on the court when they get the pass to make the pass. If the point guard is inclined to hold onto the ball (and ours is), then the other four guys are disinclined to rotate to positions that are agreeable to them making good passes.

What you also don't seem to understand, or else, willfully ignore, is the point guard's propensity for not giving the ball up until late in the shot clock, which doesn't give his teammates many options, other than to take a bad shot, or commit a turnover.

At this point in its history, isn't it the coaches fault?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

At this point in its history, isn't it the coaches fault?

Oh, don't get it twisted: it's at least sixty percent the coach's fault. But, there's only so much he can do, once the ball is inbounded. From that point on, the point guard takes over.

 

[King-Da-Yah]

I was sitting in front of a couple warriors fans (they overran the arena), I heard one the gentleman say "its almost like they still have Tyreke, dribble down to 3 secs and pass to a guy who has to force". That hurt a little.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Don't look now, but Rudy's falling back down to earth.

FG%, TS% last five games:
7/17, .549
2/11, .210
4/12, .478
9/22, .437
6/21, .338

Hope this isn't the return of the Toronto version. That would be catastrophic.

 

[bajaden]

Ok I get it now after rereading it.

Did you actually watch the game? This wasn't a game of wide open players being ignored by IT and Gay chucking the ball. The guys were literally just standing around the entire time. Once they got the ball they would try a move and when that wouldn't work they would give the ball back to IT or Gay like saying "Here...you do something with it" and then just stand out of the way and watch.

You know what happens when a player runs around trying to free himself up over and over again, and gets ignored by the PG? He just starts standing around. Its a team game, and any one player that becomes a black hole, and IT wasn't the only one last night, Gay contributed as well, the entire team concept falls apart. If your treated like a potted plant on offense, you start to act like a potted plant. This so called big three of IT, Cousins, and Gay isn't going to win any championships. How do I know that? Because they can't even play 500 ball right now. It's all isolation basketball with the occasional pick and roll or alley opp thrown in for spice. Very little ball movement, and very little player movement. The player that moves the most without the ball, takes the fewest shots for his effort. Great PG's make everyone else on the team better. Just ask Amare Stoudemire.

 

[Kingster]

You know what happens when a player runs around trying to free himself up over and over again, and gets ignored by the PG? He just starts standing around. Its a team game, and any one player that becomes a black hole, and IT wasn't the only one last night, Gay contributed as well, the entire team concept falls apart. If your treated like a potted plant on offense, you start to act like a potted plant. This so called big three of IT, Cousins, and Gay isn't going to win any championships. How do I know that? Because they can't even play 500 ball right now. It's all isolation basketball with the occasional pick and roll or alley opp thrown in for spice. Very little ball movement, and very little player movement. The player that moves the most without the ball, takes the fewest shots for his effort. Great PG's make everyone else on the team better. Just ask Amare Stoudemire.

Or guys just stand around because ...they're just standing around.

It's slightly premature to even be broaching the subject of championships. We can talk about that after the draft when of course we will have the talent for a championship.

As far as .500 ball, we saw .500 ball when Cousins, Gay and IT were healthy, and that was when Gay was barely getting his feet wet with the offense. There's no reason whatsoever they can't get back to .500 ball for the rest of the season if those guys are healthy physically and in the case of Cousins, mentally.

I agree there is too much iso ball. The guy doing by far the most iso ball is Gay. This is just a continuation of what he's done from Day 1 as a King. I thought that trend would slowly but surely diminish over time when he was integrated into the offense, but it's gone in the opposite direction. Unfortunately the results have also gone in the opposite direction. The coach has a lot of work to do before Saturday.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm not so sure we are any closer to a winning team that the day the ownership changed. Whatever the plan is, it's becoming tougher to see every day.

Well, when it comes to actually winning, we were more competitive with a Reke/Beno/Omri/JT/Hawes core with a rookie running point and a bad head coach.

That we're at a lower win % with the talent we have now should be quite a red flag. What are we, 0-8 or 0-9 without Cuz? We weren't nearly that bad in 09-10 while Cuz was still in college and threw out the core I mentioned above.

 

[rainmaker]

It's amazing how much power the point guard has in your mind. He can control the movement of every teamate on every possession.

Do you have any idea how an offensive set and balancing the floor works? Do you even watch other PG's repeatedly direct traffic and balance the floor in order to get the guy they want the shot he wants? You think the right players getting good looks where the operate best is simply a coincidence when it happens?

A PG balancing the floor and telling guys where to be on a set, to set up a player coming off a screen for a jumper, space cleared for a pick & roll, quality spacing for a post iso, making sure the shooters are where needed to run a pick & roll and have them in the correct spots for kickouts, etc, is a responsibility which falls on the PG's shoulders. It's like a QB in football. Even IT himself came out last night and said more than once he needs to do a better job running sets and looking for others and that was after Malone blasted the team for selfish play and it makes little sense he wasn't largely referring to the guy who dominated the rock the majority of the night.

You are so set on defending IT you even ignore when he himself acknowledges his weaknesses.

 

[Kingster]

Do you have any idea how an offensive set and balancing the floor works? Do you even watch other PG's repeatedly direct traffic and balance the floor in order to get the guy they want the shot he wants? You think the right players getting good looks where the operate best is simply a coincidence when it happens?

A PG balancing the floor and telling guys where to be on a set, to set up a player coming off a screen for a jumper, space cleared for a pick & roll, quality spacing for a post iso, making sure the shooters are where needed to run a pick & roll and have them in the correct spots for kickouts, etc, is a responsibility which falls on the PG's shoulders. It's like a QB in football. Even IT himself came out last night and said more than once he needs to do a better job running sets and looking for others and that was after Malone blasted the team for selfish play and it makes little sense he wasn't largely referring to the guy who dominated the rock the majority of the night.

You are so set on defending IT you even ignore when he himself acknowledges his weaknesses.

He's had the starting job for a very short time. Sure he has a learning curve. Is that news?

At times IT was playing last night with a lineup of Outlaw, Williams, Thompson and McCollum. The point is that CP3 couldn't make that quartet beat the Warriors. So sure, IT is learning. And of course he can't make that group beat the Warriors. So why the hue and cry? Oh woe is me.

 

[Glenn]

IT started 62 games last year.

 

[Kingster]

Don't look now, but Rudy's falling back down to earth.

FG%, TS% last five games:
7/17, .549
2/11, .210
4/12, .478
9/22, .437
6/21, .338

Hope this isn't the return of the Toronto version. That would be catastrophic.

This, to me, is much more concerning than the deficiencies of Isaiah Thomas. Also, his turnovers have been much too high lately. It's difficult to know why exactly it's happening. Hopefully, it turns around soon.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

Rudy will get back to being Sactown Rudy once Cuz gets healthy again.

 

[pshn80]

Well, when it comes to actually winning, we were more competitive with a Reke/Beno/Omri/JT/Hawes core with a rookie running point and a bad head coach.

That we're at a lower win % with the talent we have now should be quite a red flag. What are we, 0-8 or 0-9 without Cuz? We weren't nearly that bad in 09-10 while Cuz was still in college and threw out the core I mentioned above.

It does put a question on what are we either with or without Cuz. Not only is the end not in sight but the beginning is awfully hazy. We're certainly not playing well enough to bring out the best in the talent we have.

 

[CruzDude]

Unfortunately points up how key to the Kings offense is Cuz in the middle. Without him, the rest are not able to put together a game of their own, also very unfortunate. IT, you can't live with him and can't live without him, for now anyway. bajaden was right tho, you run around getting open half the night and don't get the ball, even when your wide open, you stop running and watch. Once that stops, the Kings will start to pick up few more wins.