[Grades] Grades v. Celtics 2/7/2014

[Padrino]

blah, blah, blah, "stop picking on the pizza guy!!" etc. isaiah thomas has been and will continue to be problematic as a starter for a number of significant reasons. demarcus cousins is the franchise cornerstone going forward. he is a solid man defender, but a poor help defender. that said, it simply doesn't work to feature not one but two defensively-inept guards in the starting lineup, with the undersized thomas being the most egregiously weak defender on the roster. opposing dribble penetration is a given with the kings' backcourt rotation, and neither cousins nor thompson are strong enough team defenders to cover for the obscene regularity of those breakdowns...

beyond that, cousins and rudy gay are a ball-dominant tandem capable of hoisting over 40 ppg between them. throwing another 20 ppg scorer into the starting lineup is foolhardy. historically, it doesn't work. there's not enough available shots to keep everyone happy and involved, and there's not enough capable defenders elsewhere to compensate for the heavy reliance on offense. if IT were a more willing passer, it'd be one thing, but he's a chucker of the highest order, and more to the point, his value is maximized as a high energy scorer. in sacramento, the best role for him is as a sixth man, where he can lead the second unit to glory with his napolean complex. it is just unfortunate that a side effect of the rudy gay trade was in leaving the kings without a starting PG or a sixth man...

regardless, these are chemistry-related problems that i and others have been harping on ad nauseum for most of the season, and they won't magically disappear just because the pizza guy's pizza minions desperately want him to succeed, seemingly at any cost. as it stands, the kings absolutely need isaiah thomas to be insanely efficient, and they absolutely need rudy gay to be healthy and insanely efficient, and they absolutely need demarcus cousins to continue playing at a historic pace for a 23-year-old, all just for a slim chance at winning. the kings are such an overwhelmingly poor defensive team that the so-called "big three" have to be playing at a ridiculously high level just to keep the kings in close games. that ridiculously high level of play is not sustainable. cousins will be cousins, of course; he'll put up stellar numbers even on his off nights. but thomas has crashed back to earth in the last six weeks, and gay is likely to float back to earth a bit before the end of the season...

so what do you do? trade DMC? trade rudy gay? yeah, right. and while i'm all for a move that allows isaiah thomas to return to a more appropriate sixth man's role, i'm also hardly convinced that the kings will be able to re-sign thomas at a sixth man's salary. so, as i've beaten the drum and will continue to beat the drum, the best strategy for maximizing the team's available assets would be to package isaiah thomas with a larger contract in order to bring back better-fitting talent that fills in some of the tremendous defensive gaps in the roster. and you know what? in a lost season, i don't even give a s*** if the kings don't get back a starting-caliber PG for thomas. they can find a temporary solution elsewhere in a separate deadline deal...

 

[Npliam]

Jimmer only played 7 minutes because of his poor play, so in my eyes that argue meant doesn't work.

Why did IT play 40 then? He was just as bad.

 

[pshn80]

Hey, we lost. We didn't play very well. We were listless. Shouldn't have happened. Did. Let's move on to the next game.p

 

[Toasty]

Sounds like a plan.

 

[mac]

The dumbness continues. Keep it up; you'll set a record. The Olympics are playing. It's in Russia. Need a ticket? Talk to the guys who put it on; they'll send you one; dumbness rewards dumbness.

Those stats have no context to them whatsoever. Why can't you at least separate the statistics according to when Cousins and/or Gay is out the game? Why can't you at least look at stats in which IT isn't playing 38+ minutes a game? Why can't you at least connect the simple dots: Nobody except Cousins or Gay or IT can score on this team. If Cousins or Gay or both go out, of course IT is going to have to shoot more. Triple dugh. You want to give more shots to Thompson? McLemore? Acy? Outlaw? Gray? Jimmer? Who you gonna call ghostbuster? There is no other guy who can create a shot for himself or others on this team. None. The bench is a freaking disaster zone; it should be cordoned off with yellow tape. Jimmer is a walking TO, who Malone has no faith in whatsoever. But somehow you think that IT can make a fantastic soufflé out of this mush. That's just brilliant.

I am willing to bet you that if you play Jimmer Fredette for 40 minutes he can score 20 points on 23 shots.

Also, "there is no other guy who can create a shot for himself or others on this team". Gee now ... I might be wrong here but then how come I don't see IT creating shots for others? I mean ... this is coming from the very very same person who complained that Tyreke Evans doesn't create shots for others, and that John Salmons was bricking 20+ consecutive 3s, half of which were wide open, because Evans only passes out late in the shot clock and doesn't make good passes. But now it's the role players' faults. Classic! Ask anyone in the league and they will tell you that scoring is not a problem for the Sacramento Kings, and that's not just because of IT/Gay/Cousins. But of course, if you take one out it MUST mean that IT has to shoot over 20 shots!

 

[Npliam]

I am willing to bet you that if you play Jimmer Fredette for 40 minutes he can score 20 points on 23 shots.

Also, "there is no other guy who can create a shot for himself or others on this team". Gee now ... I might be wrong here but then how come I don't see IT creating shots for others? I mean ... this is coming from the very very same person who complained that Tyreke Evans doesn't create shots for others, and that John Salmons was bricking 20+ consecutive 3s, half of which were wide open, because Evans only passes out late in the shot clock and doesn't make good passes. But now it's the role players' faults. Classic! Ask anyone in the league and they will tell you that scoring is not a problem for the Sacramento Kings, and that's not just because of IT/Gay/Cousins. But of course, if you take one out it MUST mean that IT has to shoot over 20 shots!

Just for fun I went looked back at Jimmers last 20 shot attempts. He went 13-20 with 29 points, 11 assists and 6 turnovers.

I am pretty sure that Jimmer would, at the very least match IT's production.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Just for fun I went looked back at Jimmers last 20 shot attempts. He went 13-20 with 29 points, 11 assists and 6 turnovers.

I am pretty sure that Jimmer would, at the very least match IT's production.

I also believe that if he got more consistent time, his feel and rhythm would improve naturally, and his turnovers would go down. Similar to how some of us noticed that his ball handling improved, once he started getting some play in most games

 

[Npliam]

I also believe that if he got more consistent time, his feel and rhythm would improve naturally, and his turnovers would go down. Similar to how some of us noticed that his ball handling improved, once he started getting some play in most games

He would also being throwing the ball to Cousins and Gay instead of Acy and Gray. The thing is though, unless IT goes down we wont' get to see it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Now...stretching those stats I put up to make claims that we'd be better off with Jimmer Fredette is just as bad as ignoring those stats I put up. IT is flat better than Jimmer Fredette, by quite a bit. More talented, more suited for the pro game. IT has the talent to be a significant positive asset for a team, even if I continue to believe maybe moreso as 6th man scoring pop than starter. But even that is mostly mental. What's broken as a starter for him is not talent, its mentality. His brain is broken. He grew up playing selfish hero ball as a way to prove to his critics that he wasn't a midget. I'll show you!!! Since he's been in the pros his headstrong personable nature has endeared him to mental midgets everywhere and allowed him to run roughshod playing keepaway from better players. But he's got a lot of talent. Properly focused he is a much larger asset than Jimmer Fredette. Jimmer was bad last night. Sometimes he is, sometimes he's not. Either way we protect the hell out of him trying to keep the performances solid. Bad matchup pops up, Jimmer is out of the game instantly. He never has to face Mike Conley or Russel Westbrook. IT doesn't have that luxury. IT is asked to start and run a team against the NBA's best every night. Far too often he responds by listening to his ego, but he and Jimmer aren't even playing the same sport out there. IT is a better starter than Jimmer. IT is a better bencher than JImmer. Could we get their minutes mix better on a lot of nights? yeah. But trying to stretch ITs inability to get it into we'd be better off with Jimmer or McCallum arguments is just silly. It is a major NBA talent.

 

[Glenn]

His brain IS broken.

He tends to lose track of what his job is when under pressure whether is is real or self imagined. He screws up at the end of quarters at a rate that is amazing and I attribute that to anxiety. He sees his role as the guy who must score, puts that pressure on himself, and screws up. In the game thread it was almost a joke among posters who knew that after he missed shots at the end of the first two quarters, he would miss the next one. This time things changed as with two seconds on the clock he decided to toss the ball back to someone at the three point line. Obviously the guy didn't have a chance to get the ball off.

I hate these arguments as they go nowhere but they are hard to pass by as it is like people are seeing a different ball player. He's a great athlete. He can score. He screws up under pressure. It was a few games back when Gay had the ball with the clock ticking down and IT came up to him to take the ball. Rudy didn't give it to him. Rudy went into his attention gathering iso moves and tossed it back to IT who swished it. He had no time to think. He just shot. It went in. Some people thrive in those situations and he does not. Malone has to know that. I lay some of this blame on Malone as IT should not be allowed to have the ball at the end of quarters. He certainly shouldn't have the ball with the intent to ignore everyone else on the court and shoot.

Spout all the stats that you want but it is in pressure situations that he fails. I have no stats for that as it is a state of mind.

 

[mac]

Now...stretching those stats I put up to make claims that we'd be better off with Jimmer Fredette is just as bad as ignoring those stats I put up. IT is flat better than Jimmer Fredette, by quite a bit. More talented, more suited for the pro game. IT has the talent to be a significant positive asset for a team, even if I continue to believe maybe moreso as 6th man scoring pop than starter. But even that is mostly mental. What's broken as a starter for him is not talent, its mentality. His brain is broken. He grew up playing selfish hero ball as a way to prove to his critics that he wasn't a midget. I'll show you!!! Since he's been in the pros his headstrong personable nature has endeared him to mental midgets everywhere and allowed him to run roughshod playing keepaway from better players. But he's got a lot of talent. Properly focused he is a much larger asset than Jimmer Fredette. Jimmer was bad last night. Sometimes he is, sometimes he's not. Either way we protect the hell out of him trying to keep the performances solid. Bad matchup pops up, Jimmer is out of the game instantly. He never has to face Mike Conley or Russel Westbrook. IT doesn't have that luxury. IT is asked to start and run a team against the NBA's best every night. Far too often he responds by listening to his ego, but he and Jimmer aren't even playing the same sport out there. IT is a better starter than Jimmer. IT is a better bencher than JImmer. Could we get their minutes mix better on a lot of nights? yeah. But trying to stretch ITs inability to get it into we'd be better off with Jimmer or McCallum arguments is just silly. It is a major NBA talent.

But given that IT's mentality is a problem (and an increasingly seemingly unfixable one I might add), is IT the better fit as a starter for this team next to Gay and Cousins? Assume that Jimmer continues to improve with having more experience from playing more minutes ... not too unreasonable an assumption IMO.

 

[VF21]

Like him or not when IT comes out we suck. NOT being a hater but the sooner jimmer gets out of here the better. Hell the lakers have 4 point guards who are better on one leg.
This marriage is finally over. Sorry, I hate to see our starting line-up work hard only for mainly jimmer and others wipe it away in moments...literally.

And how many games have we won with IT at the helm? Sorry, but you're not fooling anyone.

 

[Npliam]

Now...stretching those stats I put up to make claims that we'd be better off with Jimmer Fredette is just as bad as ignoring those stats I put up. IT is flat better than Jimmer Fredette, by quite a bit. More talented, more suited for the pro game. IT has the talent to be a significant positive asset for a team, even if I continue to believe maybe moreso as 6th man scoring pop than starter. But even that is mostly mental. What's broken as a starter for him is not talent, its mentality. His brain is broken. He grew up playing selfish hero ball as a way to prove to his critics that he wasn't a midget. I'll show you!!! Since he's been in the pros his headstrong personable nature has endeared him to mental midgets everywhere and allowed him to run roughshod playing keepaway from better players. But he's got a lot of talent. Properly focused he is a much larger asset than Jimmer Fredette. Jimmer was bad last night. Sometimes he is, sometimes he's not. Either way we protect the hell out of him trying to keep the performances solid. Bad matchup pops up, Jimmer is out of the game instantly. He never has to face Mike Conley or Russel Westbrook. IT doesn't have that luxury. IT is asked to start and run a team against the NBA's best every night. Far too often he responds by listening to his ego, but he and Jimmer aren't even playing the same sport out there. IT is a better starter than Jimmer. IT is a better bencher than JImmer. Could we get their minutes mix better on a lot of nights? yeah. But trying to stretch ITs inability to get it into we'd be better off with Jimmer or McCallum arguments is just silly. It is a major NBA talent.

I think coach Malone thinks the same way you do despite the facts...and the losing.

 

[Glenn]

My personal view on IT's best value for the Kings is as trade bait. I may be absolutely wrong in what I think is wrong with IT but even if I'm wrong, I think it is more likely than not that he will command a salary beyond what the Kings should pay. We already have Gay and Cuz at over $30 mil next year and Thornton and Landry who I think are overpriced. Trade him. Get what we can get and sort out whatever problems that leaves us with later. Heck, we did the same thing with Gay. We wanted him and were willing to play out the rest of the season with an undermanned guard corps.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm beginning to worry when Rudy has the option of playing for Pho and next to Dragic vs playing here and next to IT thrown on the table, he might side with Pho.

There's a growing risk here IMO that the way in which IT plays and the frustration I regularly see on Rudy's face playing with IT could push Rudy to opt out and consider the Pho interest, or possible interest we haven't heard about yet or will be there.

I do think he likes Sac and likes playing with Boogie but if I were Rudy, the prospect of playing next to Dragic in Pho would be attractive as well. There will obviously be multiple parts in play which determine what Rudy does in July, but I do believe what happens with IT will be a good size part of that. If we don't move IT before the deadline and he continues jacking up 20+ shots a night while Rudy keeps shaking his head in frustration when he's looked off, that Pho interest becomes more intriguing.

If you were a high scoring wing and a top 5 NBA SF, would you want to play next to any of the Seattle guys in IT/Nate/Jamal? I wouldn't. The potential of playing with Boogie hopefully counteracts that. But these Seattle guys have the same mentality. They aren't changing.

 

[whozit]

I really hadn't thought about Gay in terms of him preferring to play next to Cousins despite a shot happy PG over playing without a dominant big man like Cousins and having a floor general who makes the team better. I hope there are some changes to the team's composition by the time the trade deadline is over.

 

[PurpleHaze]

I know Kings have had interest in Goran Dragic. To keep Rudy here I'd hope PDA is making usual - anybody (or several anybody's) but Cousins and let's make a deal.

 

[whozit]

The pundits are saying the Suns are buyers what do we have to make them sellers?

 

[mac]

The pundits are saying the Suns are buyers what do we have to make them sellers?

How about our key free agent signing Carl Landry?

 

[PurpleHaze]

The pundits are saying the Suns are buyers what do we have to make them sellers?

To somehow pry away chunk of that very solid backcourt in Dragic or Bledsoe Kings would be required to give up some big chucks like DWill (Arizona favorite), JT (good riddance), IT (ok, with me) plus some added filler who Phoenix probably wouldn't care for much (MT, Landry, Outlaw, Fredette, Acy, etc.). Unfortunately, deal with Phoenix might be too steep for Kings (i.e. draft picks too). If Kings FO is serious about keeping Gay (plus keeping Cuz content - forget keeping IT happy) they need to be thinking way ahead with aggressive trade offers today, tomorrow, and next day. I think PDA agrees.

 

[Glenn]

We can't afford to lose Rudy. If Rudy is tired of IT, I'd let IT go. There are other trade possibilities I assume but I would be very upset if we lost Rudy.

 

[Glenn]

To somehow pry away chunk of that very solid backcourt in Dragic or Bledsoe Kings would be required to give up some big chucks like DWill (Arizona favorite), JT (good riddance), IT (ok, with me) plus some added filler who Phoenix probably wouldn't care for much (MT, Landry, Outlaw, Fredette, Acy, etc.). Unfortunately, deal with Phoenix might be too steep for Kings (i.e. draft picks too). If Kings FO is serious about keeping Gay (plus keeping Cuz content - forget keeping IT happy) they need to be thinking way ahead with aggressive trade offers today, tomorrow, and next day. I think PDA agrees.

Why do we have to deal with Phoenix? I missed something.

 

[bajaden]

Jimmer only played 7 minutes because of his poor play, so in my eyes that argue meant doesn't work.

Let me try this again since you seem to be blinded by the heavenly light being radiated by IT. I NEVER said that Jimmer played well. Quite the opposite, I gave him a D, and said he didn't play well. My argument to you, was that it didn't make sense to hold him responsible for the loss. Now personally, and its just a quirk of mine, but I hold players that played significant minutes responsible, since, and I know this doesn't make any sense to you, but josh darn, they were on the floor for most of the game, and therefore had more overall impact on the outcome. By your standard, McCallum should be blamed because he didn't play very well in the minute and a half he was on the floor.

I find it interesting, that IT defenders, will say that he has to take all those shots because there's no one else that can score, but at the same time, criticize Fredette, for not creating shots for those very same inept players. The truth is, both IT and Jimmer were bad last night, the only difference is, IT was on stage more. I'll make a prediction as well. You give Jimmer 23 shots, and I'll bet you a lunch at the restaurant of you choice that Jimmer scores more than 24 points. By the way, I'm not advocating that.

 

[rainmaker]

I know Kings have had interest in Goran Dragic. To keep Rudy here I'd hope PDA is making usual - anybody (or several anybody's) but Cousins and let's make a deal.

There's next to no chance Pho moves Dragic, the guy leading them into the thick of the playoff race.

However I could see Pho after this season is over, offering Rudy a huge contract and then looking to move Bledsoe for a big, in the hopes of having a Dragic/Gay/Big lineup. Pho has also been rumored to want a big, with interest in Gasol, Asik and Z-Bo. It's just rumors but the blueprint they'd like isn't tough to see. Basically Dragic/Gay, maybe still Bledsoe if they can keep him and still acquire a big, next to a guy like Gasol, Z-Bo or Asik.

And that's a worry from where I'm sitting. Rudy will have options. The NBA doesn't operate in a vacuum where we can only consider what Rudy's doing here and it certainly isn't a done deal that he'll just opt in for the money next year. He'll be a sought after FA if he decides to opt out and I'd try giving him as little reason as possible to opt out. Keeping IT doesn't accomplish that IMO.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Why do we have to deal with Phoenix? I missed something.

Only because they are in press today supposedly wanting Rudy Gay. It was just some pondering - why not make them sellers? PDA can make trade with anybody and hopefully makes smart one (or two) - sooner rather than later.

 

[Glenn]

The time Rudy has played with the Kings has resuscitated his career. Certainly he understands that it is more fun being respected than laughed at,. If he doesn't like IT, I'd use IT as kindling. There is no requirement that we keep IT especially if it costs us Rudy.

 

[mac]

Let me try this again since you seem to be blinded by the heavenly light being radiated by IT. I NEVER said that Jimmer played well. Quite the opposite, I gave him a D, and said he didn't play well. My argument to you, was that it didn't make sense to hold him responsible for the loss. Now personally, and its just a quirk of mine, but I hold players that played significant minutes responsible, since, and I know this doesn't make any sense to you, but josh darn, they were on the floor for most of the game, and therefore had more overall impact on the outcome. By your standard, McCallum should be blamed because he didn't play very well in the minute and a half he was on the floor.

I find it interesting, that IT defenders, will say that he has to take all those shots because there's no one else that can score, but at the same time, criticize Fredette, for not creating shots for those very same inept players. The truth is, both IT and Jimmer were bad last night, the only difference is, IT was on stage more. I'll make a prediction as well. You give Jimmer 23 shots, and I'll bet you a lunch at the restaurant of you choice that Jimmer scores more than 24 points. By the way, I'm not advocating that.

Not just the number of shots but the shot selection as well. If Jimmer were allowed to just dribble down the floor and pull up for a 3 with 17 seconds on the shotclock and did that say 5 times a game (not that far off from what IT does in some games) ...

 

[bajaden]

His brain IS broken.

He tends to lose track of what his job is when under pressure whether is is real or self imagined. He screws up at the end of quarters at a rate that is amazing and I attribute that to anxiety. He sees his role as the guy who must score, puts that pressure on himself, and screws up. In the game thread it was almost a joke among posters who knew that after he missed shots at the end of the first two quarters, he would miss the next one. This time things changed as with two seconds on the clock he decided to toss the ball back to someone at the three point line. Obviously the guy didn't have a chance to get the ball off.

I hate these arguments as they go nowhere but they are hard to pass by as it is like people are seeing a different ball player. He's a great athlete. He can score. He screws up under pressure. It was a few games back when Gay had the ball with the clock ticking down and IT came up to him to take the ball. Rudy didn't give it to him. Rudy went into his attention gathering iso moves and tossed it back to IT who swished it. He had no time to think. He just shot. It went in. Some people thrive in those situations and he does not. Malone has to know that. I lay some of this blame on Malone as IT should not be allowed to have the ball at the end of quarters. He certainly shouldn't have the ball with the intent to ignore everyone else on the court and shoot.

Spout all the stats that you want but it is in pressure situations that he fails. I have no stats for that as it is a state of mind.

The player he passed the ball to with just a couple of ticks left on the clock was Williams, who had just enough time to throw up a shot. With IT, its not so much that he scores 20 points, its how he does it. When I watch Chris Paul, or Lowry play, I'm usually amazed at the end of the game that they had 20 or so points, because I don't remember them scoring that much. The reason is, they just take whats there in the flow of the game, and seldom force anything. When you watch IT, its painfully obvious how he got his points, because he always has that one part of the game where he just shoots and shoots and shoots.

Last night when IT was in the game, I put down a hash mark for every time one of his teammates broke open for a shot, either at the basket, or away from the basket. At the end of the game, I had nine marks on the paper. Now to be fair, in some cases the pass would have had to be there in a split second. But in other cases, the player had time to wave his hand for the ball. Such was the case when JT slid from right baseline to left baseline and was under the basket with no one near him. I assume that IT thought great, there's someone there to rebound if I miss, which he did. Unfortunately, JT didn't get the rebound.

 

[Padrino]

i don't know why kings fans continually enjoy pitting isaiah thomas and jimmer fredette against each other. to what end, exactly? thomas is a sixth man masquerading as a starting PG, and fredette is a deep bench utility combo guard masquerading as a back-up PG. yet it's always "jimmer wouldn't do that if he was the starter" or "jimmer could do that if given the same minutes." who cares? seriously, who the eff cares? IT is not the long-term solution at starting PG, and jimmer is not even on the radar of priority for this team. fredette is still very likely to be let go in free agency this offseason...

that said, the kings remain without a starting PG that fits properly alongside demarcus cousins and rudy gay, and they remain without a back-up PG that can properly spell the starter for more than a handful of minutes a game. the team's entire point guard rotation needs to be overhauled. that is, they need to acquire an adequate starter who's inclined to involve his teammates while also giving consistent effort on defense, and they need to either move thomas back to the bench as a sixth man or trade him and then acquire an adequate back-up for their hypothetical starter. let me put it this way: i'm quite certain that ranadive/d'allesandro/malone are nowhere near satisfied with a PG rotation of thomas/fredette/mccallum...

 

[Chubbs]

I'm beginning to worry when Rudy has the option of playing for Pho and next to Dragic vs playing here and next to IT thrown on the table, he might side with Pho.

There's a growing risk here IMO that the way in which IT plays and the frustration I regularly see on Rudy's face playing with IT could push Rudy to opt out and consider the Pho interest, or possible interest we haven't heard about yet or will be there.

I do think he likes Sac and likes playing with Boogie but if I were Rudy, the prospect of playing next to Dragic in Pho would be attractive as well. There will obviously be multiple parts in play which determine what Rudy does in July, but I do believe what happens with IT will be a good size part of that. If we don't move IT before the deadline and he continues jacking up 20+ shots a night while Rudy keeps shaking his head in frustration when he's looked off, that Pho interest becomes more intriguing.

If you were a high scoring wing and a top 5 NBA SF, would you want to play next to any of the Seattle guys in IT/Nate/Jamal? I wouldn't. The potential of playing with Boogie hopefully counteracts that. But these Seattle guys have the same mentality. They aren't changing.

Yes! No one is going to want to play with the guy. A ball hog pg? That's the absolute worst in this league. If we sign Mighty Mouse to a big contract, rudy may run for the door. I would. Every decent player would.

If we make the mistake of signing him and it causes us to lose rudy, we are back with nothing. That would be really crushing to this franchise. For such a little guy, he could absolutely cripple this franchise going forward. I am very concerned we'll waste cousin's best years by not making a trade now and signing supreme leader to a big contract.