What is our PG worth? SI takes a stab at it.
- Thread starter Chubbs
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we have a starting level role player PF in JT. he does the dirty work so our #1 & 2 can do their jobs. IT would need to be added to one of our dead weight contracts like MT, Outlaw. The FO is not going to give up on Mclemore that quick. The franchise sees him as a building block. I believe he can be a useful role player if he can improve his D and actually get some open shots. It's obvious he can't do the second part when we have mighty mouse freezing him out of the offense.
I think there is considerable danger here of setting your feet too firmly against the idea of IT going forward, as its entirely possible that's what happens here. He's flawed and problematic, I don/t think any team will ever win a title with IT as a starting PG, but he's a talent in his own way, and people may be underestimating how deeply he's wormed his way into the team psyche/chemistry/Big Cuz's lil buddy etc. and he competes, and we've been looking for competitors. I accept every argument why we could be better off going another way, but I am far from convinced that's necessarily going to happen. We should certainly know by the deadline what the plan is, as I see no reasonable way we keep IT past the deadline unless we plan to resign him.
We already gave away a talent in Tyreke and got back nothing but a Greivis. We made up for that talent drain by turning a pile of junk, including Greivis and the remannts of our #5 pick last year, into Rudy Gay. But we can't redrain the talent again. A selfish Isaiah is still greater than an untalented replacement. its still a talent league.
Whatever happens, we can't go forward as constructed. If IT stays, then you need defensive roleplayers at PF/SG, Ben needs to go, Thompson likely goes, and you need a pass first PG off the bench with some defensive abilities to provide the counter to ITs midget gunner routine. If IT goes then you either need a major talent at PG, or you need a roleplayer at PG, and then an upgrade at SG -- and again you might endanger yourself sitting aorudn waiting for either an undisciplined MT or a possible bust in Ben to fill that role. Anyway, you break down ITs 21pts into 14ppg at SG and 10ppg at PG or some such. You can't get extra offense out of the PF, because that spot absolutely needs to be the shotblocker. Either way, if we're serious and aggressive we'll make a move toward one or the other of those structures here in the next few weeks. But I don't think its wise to set your feet definitely on one side or the other right now, because its far from clear what we're thinking.
We already gave away a talent in Tyreke and got back nothing but a Greivis. We made up for that talent drain by turning a pile of junk, including Greivis and the remannts of our #5 pick last year, into Rudy Gay. But we can't redrain the talent again. A selfish Isaiah is still greater than an untalented replacement. its still a talent league.
Whatever happens, we can't go forward as constructed. If IT stays, then you need defensive roleplayers at PF/SG, Ben needs to go, Thompson likely goes, and you need a pass first PG off the bench with some defensive abilities to provide the counter to ITs midget gunner routine. If IT goes then you either need a major talent at PG, or you need a roleplayer at PG, and then an upgrade at SG -- and again you might endanger yourself sitting aorudn waiting for either an undisciplined MT or a possible bust in Ben to fill that role. Anyway, you break down ITs 21pts into 14ppg at SG and 10ppg at PG or some such. You can't get extra offense out of the PF, because that spot absolutely needs to be the shotblocker. Either way, if we're serious and aggressive we'll make a move toward one or the other of those structures here in the next few weeks. But I don't think its wise to set your feet definitely on one side or the other right now, because its far from clear what we're thinking.
Marcus Thornton is a scorer, IT is the only person player on this team that offers elite dribble penetration ability, IT is more in line with a Ty Lawson as far as playing style(I rate Lawson higher though, with IT being a better scorer). Imo that is a game changer, but I know I will never convince you.
If Lowry is worth $4-$5 million to you, than what is IT worth $2-$3 million? Take a look around NBA salary and see what type of players are making that kind of money. Lowry will get anywhere from $7-$10 million in the summer depending on the team(small markets will have to pay more). The advantage we have with IT is that he is our guy and could stay for a lower price.
If Lowry is worth $4-$5 million to you, than what is IT worth $2-$3 million? Take a look around NBA salary and see what type of players are making that kind of money. Lowry will get anywhere from $7-$10 million in the summer depending on the team(small markets will have to pay more). The advantage we have with IT is that he is our guy and could stay for a lower price.
I don't mean substantially lower, but say we offer $7 million and another team is offering $8 million, he could stay here because he's been a part of this team, is settled in living wise, he's a northwest kid that maybe values staying close to home. Obviously if we are offering $7 and another team comes swooping in with a Tyreke level contract, he is going to take it.
Yeah, at this point Toronto are not letting Lowry go. If they sneak past Atlanta, there's a good chance for #4-#5 match-up with Hawks in the first round. Atlanta won the first game of the season, but that was with Horford. Second round is a real possibility. Brooklyn are walking dead and should decline pretty soon. They are not giving that up.
I think getting Andre Miller would be great for this team, whether he starts or comes off the bench he will teach IT and Ray Mac a lot about playing PG, like he did with Lawson. I want to see what Ray Mac can do in meaningful minutes with guys like Rudy and Cuz, he looks like he could become a good defender, but then again Malone isn't using him so he must see something that tells him he's not ready. Whats sorely missing from this team right now is a good backup PG.
See the last two games if you doubt that.
Mclemore really got me excited last night. Hope we see more of that. If it was a choice between those two, I go with Ben and take a chance. I still see special there. Something about his work ethic, his extreme athleticism, etc. Plus, he's already signed for the next 3 years if we want him. There's minimal risk keeping him around and seeing what happens.
Our pg is basically at his peak if you ask me. Free range to do whatever, longest leash in the league. He shoots whenever he wants, does whatever he wants, never gets pulled no matter what he does. And this may be the best he can do. I know it can take 5-7 years for a PG to get it (see Steve Nash). But, I'm not willing to take that gamble and lock into some 10 million per year long term deal.
That said, I'm wondering if signing him and trading him later might be our best move, unless he can traded now for a starting pg. Even if we got smart or exum, our guy is better than they'd probably be year 1. We just can't sign him for too much and make him untradeable. With a stud offensive rookie if we land one of those (and if they pass on randle, Parker, wiggins for a guy that "fits" the current team I will be angry, unless it's embiid) his numbers won't be anywhere near where they are now. Thus harder to trade, especially with a larger contract.
I don't have the answers but it seems like time is running out.
Calderon was the perfect fit for this team. Iggy is a perfect fit on any team. At least the FO targeted the right kinds of players. Anyone who doubts iggy should look at the warriors with him and warriors without him. It's night and day.
Mclemore really got me excited last night. Hope we see more of that. If it was a choice between those two, I go with Ben and take a chance. I still see special there. Something about his work ethic, his extreme athleticism, etc. Plus, he's already signed for the next 3 years if we want him. There's minimal risk keeping him around and seeing what happens.
Our pg is basically at his peak if you ask me. Free range to do whatever, longest leash in the league. He shoots whenever he wants, does whatever he wants, never gets pulled no matter what he does. And this may be the best he can do. I know it can take 5-7 years for a PG to get it (see Steve Nash). But, I'm not willing to take that gamble and lock into some 10 million per year long term deal.
That said, I'm wondering if signing him and trading him later might be our best move, unless he can traded now for a starting pg. Even if we got smart or exum, our guy is better than they'd probably be year 1. We just can't sign him for too much and make him untradeable. With a stud offensive rookie if we land one of those (and if they pass on randle, Parker, wiggins for a guy that "fits" the current team I will be angry, unless it's embiid) his numbers won't be anywhere near where they are now. Thus harder to trade, especially with a larger contract.
I don't have the answers but it seems like time is running out.
Calderon was the perfect fit for this team. Iggy is a perfect fit on any team. At least the FO targeted the right kinds of players. Anyone who doubts iggy should look at the warriors with him and warriors without him. It's night and day.
This is why we need to be careful handling IT, or any of our other assets. We will never get good free agents to come here so trades and the draft are very important for us. The Williams trade was great because we got rid of a injury prone guy and replaced him with a young guy with upside, he is a trade asset that we bought low and can potentially sell high. IT has looked great as our 6th man, and more than solid when playing with our full roster. I think if Ray Mac can develop or we get a solid vet PG that can start and give us 20 minutes, imo that is the way to go.
Last 3 games might have actually helped our cause for getting IT's price down on the open market. Any PG who throws up 20-7-3 is going to draw up a lot of interest. Teams might have been looking at him as a "feature" option. The Magic come to mind in particular. But after 3 fairly "meh" games as a lead option, it's bound to make some of those teams question if he really is worth a $10mil+ type deal or if his numbers are a product of all the attention given to Gay and Cousins.
When every announcing crew express an opinion, that you should let IT continue with his business, I find it hard to believe, that GMs will fail to see the same. There's a reason quite a few most incompetent ones got chased from the League, and few that are still keeping their seats don't have assets anymore, so there's no reason to fire them. Teams are learning...
P.S. Hollinger might be interested in efficiency. Wonder, if he parts with Conley?
P.S. Hollinger might be interested in efficiency. Wonder, if he parts with Conley?
When every announcing crew express an opinion, that you should let IT continue with his business, I find it hard to believe, that GMs will fail to see the same. There's a reason quite a few most incompetent ones got chased from the League, and few that are still keeping their seats don't have assets anymore, so there's no reason to fire them. Teams are learning...
P.S. Hollinger might be interested in efficiency. Wonder, if he parts with Conley?
P.S. Hollinger might be interested in efficiency. Wonder, if he parts with Conley?
2014. A few interesting names are Avery Bradley, Ramon Sessions, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Wesley Johnson, Jordan Hill, Xavier Henry, Chris Kaman, Kenyon Martin, Thabo Sefolosha, Evan Turner, Lavoy Allen, Emeka Okafor, Kyle Lowry, and Gordon Hayward. Then there's players like Chandler Parsons, Greg Monroe, Lebron, and a few more who I see as unlikely signings.
Adding onto my reply from earlier. Overall, I think if we were to go after someone like Avery Bradley and offered him a contract of 3 years $15million and Charlotte offered him the same exact deal, I think it would come down to the city and where he'd want to play and live in. However if it's for a player like Kirk Hinrich who's a vet with value, and if it was down to Sacramento against Memphis, he might end up choosing the team that gives him the best shot to win a ring. It goes the same way for almost many valuable vets and other players. They'll chose a team that can give them the best shot to win a title. However, there's always the possibility of overpaying players for much more than they're worth(Al Jefferson and the bobcats).
Adding onto my reply from earlier. Overall, I think if we were to go after someone like Avery Bradley and offered him a contract of 3 years $15million and Charlotte offered him the same exact deal, I think it would come down to the city and where he'd want to play and live in. However if it's for a player like Kirk Hinrich who's a vet with value, and if it was down to Sacramento against Memphis, he might end up choosing the team that gives him the best shot to win a ring. It goes the same way for almost many valuable vets and other players. They'll chose a team that can give them the best shot to win a title. However, there's always the possibility of overpaying players for much more than they're worth(Al Jefferson and the bobcats).
I would give IT 8-9/year. I don't care if this is to start or come of the bench. His play does merit at least 25 min/game though. Probably much more. In only his 3rd year in the league he has shown that he can break down the D with his dribble, get to the basket and keep the D honest by knocking down 3's with consistency.
He obviously has areas that need improvement. Most notably his defense and his ability to keep his man in front of him. Also, he can lose composure and get "tunnel vision." However, I have hope for him in these areas - especially remaining composed and seeing the floor, managing the game more consistently.
He obviously has areas that need improvement. Most notably his defense and his ability to keep his man in front of him. Also, he can lose composure and get "tunnel vision." However, I have hope for him in these areas - especially remaining composed and seeing the floor, managing the game more consistently.