What do we do with McLemore?

What do we do with McLemore?


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S

SacKings2002NBAChampions

Guest
He can't handle the ball....at all. Have we ever had a SG that had worse handles than Ben? I just can't see him having a successful career if he can't dribble the ball without it going off his leg or being stolen. You can say he's a rookie and all that but you just don't see players all the sudden learn how to handle the ball in the big leagues. I mean if he's still running a play while a shot is taken or something, I can chalk that up to being a rookie.

I don't see how his style matches with Allen's either. Allen could handle the ball and play point guard on some possessions. Just because Ben can shoot (well he's supposed to be able to) and jump, doesn't mean we should compare him to a HOF player. I think Gerald Green is a much better comparison.

How is he going to be able to average 20ppg? He can't find his own shot so he's going to have to rely on someone else to find him all game. There aren't many spot shooters that score 20 a game. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is Peja, who is an all time world class shooter. Peja also had the luxury of playing with Divac/Webber/Christie/Bibby, which was basically like having 4 point guards on the court with him.
Actually, learning to handle the ball is something that any player can do. He's not absolutely horrible with the ball but when there is a defender marking him tight then yeah he is not safe with the ball. He can definitely learn to handle the ball better. I have no doubt. He will improve his shot and his athleticism allows him to be a great defender in the future. I think the most important thing about Ben Mac is that he's down to earth, NO EGO, listens patiently to the coach and runs plays religiously, seems loyal, and has incredible work ethic. I have no doubt he'll be a good NBA player. The question is, can we get something better for him? Maybe, maybe no. I'd give it another year or so before we give up on him ala Jimmer (albeit, some still have hope for him).
 
S

SacKings2002NBAChampions

Guest
Where did this Ben has a low basketball IQ thing come from? It's suddenly popping up everywhere on this board and repeated over and over as fact. I don't think he's at a comfort level where we can even think of making any determination like that.

Is he inexperienced, raw and sometimes clueless? Yes, he's a 20 year old rookie thrown into the fire on a rebuilding team with little from his teammates. We are not in win now mode or he wouldn't be on the court. I guess I should expect absurd statements from some people and just let it go, but we are absolutely not in win now mode. That would actually be detrimental, not helpful. You try to win of course, but you don't start benching rookies cause these games are just too important to build for the future. I see no downside at all on him growing into his role. If we get a decent PG, you'll see Ben start to flourish sooner rather than later. Right now our so called "Big 3" is missing the 3rd piece. Which means we are far from win now mode. We are in asset acquiring phase. I don't think we even have a core. I don't even know that Rudy is a lasting part of the puzzle.

We have one sure thing. Cousins. That's really it. And I strongly think Ben is getting 3 years at least to prove himself. Which makes him at least as likely to be here as 2/3s of the so called big 3, one of which is a FA this year, and the other who may opt out and leave also this season.

When people say win now, what do you mean? The 8 seed and a first round exit? Is that what we're talking about? I see little value in that. Much improved team play and defense is the goal, and only that. That's all the FO has preached all season.

Some of you are digging some deep holes in regards to Ben. Be careful.
His IQ is definitely not high. I think that's pretty obvious. Anyhow, didn't draft him because of his IQ but because we watched an athletic SG that can score. However, now that we have Gay, IT and a prospering Cousins, we don't really need that offensive punch bar a couple open three pointers that he seems to miss often (but that will improve with time).

Second, I think he could benefit from starting off the bench much like IT who garnered a lot of confidence from that role. Ben has the same work ethic like IT which will make him work even harder once benched. I think he's suffering from the pressure currently. We did throw him into the fire right away and with a guy who doesn't have an ego and lacks supreme confidence, it isn't a surprise that Ben is struggling.

I think it's pretty fair to say that we have a big 3 currently. I mean IT has been averaging 20+ points this season with good assist numbers. He's also improving his defense which is all you could ask for considering his height. I think IT's main problem is that he loses his opponent in the pick and roll too often or whenever a screen happens. He just needs to learn to stay in front of his man and that's all we really need from him. We need a strong 2 guard though on the defense. I think Ben has the potential to be a great defender considering his athleticism and work ethic but will it happen...hopefully.

Currently, we need to focus on two things: Trade thornton, landry, Jimmer, and Thompson for either a good defensive SG or PF and another useful bench scorer & to do well in the upcoming draft. That's all we can ask for. If we do these things, I don't see why we can't make the playoffs next season considering the other players (Gay/IT) stay with the team.

Would I prefer a pass first/defensive PG over IT? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not this season.
My dream: Get a star defensive/pass first guard (someone like Rubio or Rondo), Ben Mac becomes the second best scorer in the squad after Cousins, a good defensive PF from the draft and to trade for some consistency off the bench.
 
I don't know. All star appearances combined by our "big 3" stands at zero. One of them wasn't even a starter earlier this year, and shouldn't be now. He's a backup in this league. I just can't see him as a playoff pg. He'll get destroyed when the game slows down.

I'll settle for big 2.5. Big 3 would require an unprecedented late life growth spurt.

I just disagree that inexperience makes someone low IQ automatically. The future is much brighter with Ben taking the scoring load from our PG. It wouldn't shock me to see more trades to help that happen. The team took off a decade ago when jwill left. I can see a repeat of that if they can find a bibby.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
Doug Christy was a dream.

Doug Christy and Bruce Bowen were two of the most underrated players in the NBA and also the two best defenders the NBA had seen in a long time. I still remember vividly when Christy gave Rick Fox that little uppercut.
Christie!

Normally I'm not a spelling nazi, but I do take issue with three misspellings of one of our greatest players ever in the same post.
 
S

SacKings2002NBAChampions

Guest
Christie!

Normally I'm not a spelling nazi, but I do take issue with three misspellings of one of our greatest players ever in the same post.
Sorry, I actually thought his name was Christie too lmfao
Except the person above me was writing Christy so I was like man I've been saying his name wrong all these years.
Should have done a quick google search...shame on me. I actually have a poster on my wall with all their names :(
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
Ben McLemore on what idol Ray Allen said to him in their first match-up:

"He was telling me I’m just like him when he came in the league as a rookie - the way that I shoot the ball and stuff. So that was a great compliment from him. You know, just little things like that. Once I get his contact (info) and get to interacting with him and stuff like that, I’ll be able to learn some more things about how he move without the ball and some tips that he can give me."

And:

http://cowbellkingdom.com/2014/01/02/ray-allen-weighs-in-on-comparisons-to-ben-mclemore/
 
I like Ben and hope we keep starting him but just reduce his minutes if need be. If he has a low BBIQ, can that be compensated for with his coachable attitude that Malone keeps talking about? I think they back this draft bet all thru the season and see how he's playing in the spring. Doesn't seem like his trade value is bigger than his upside if he suddenly "gets it", and benching him would be demoralizing unless we traded for some established starting SG.
 
Actually, learning to handle the ball is something that any player can do. He's not absolutely horrible with the ball but when there is a defender marking him tight then yeah he is not safe with the ball. He can definitely learn to handle the ball better. I have no doubt. He will improve his shot and his athleticism allows him to be a great defender in the future. I think the most important thing about Ben Mac is that he's down to earth, NO EGO, listens patiently to the coach and runs plays religiously, seems loyal, and has incredible work ethic. I have no doubt he'll be a good NBA player. The question is, can we get something better for him? Maybe, maybe no. I'd give it another year or so before we give up on him ala Jimmer (albeit, some still have hope for him).
I've seen players improve their ball handling but I've never seen a player go from essentially no handle at all to being competent with it. Jimmer had handling problems by allowing defenders to trap him easily early on. That's something he can improve on but he at least had the basic handle skills in the first place. I don't see Ben improving to even Marcus Thornton competent levels.

If the FO can tell he's not going to develop into a solid player, then they need to trade him now before he completely loses his value. If they see something in him, then go ahead and keep him but then you run the risk of having Jimmer 2.0 on your team for a few years. It's a gamble but you have to go with the odds and what the eye sees. It's like with Thornton, we should have traded him before the season started because he still had value. Now he's maybe worth a 2nd rounder at best.
 
Where did this Ben has a low basketball IQ thing come from? It's suddenly popping up everywhere on this board and repeated over and over as fact. I don't think he's at a comfort level where we can even think of making any determination like that.

Is he inexperienced, raw and sometimes clueless? Yes, he's a 20 year old rookie thrown into the fire on a rebuilding team with little from his teammates. We are not in win now mode or he wouldn't be on the court. I guess I should expect absurd statements from some people and just let it go, but we are absolutely not in win now mode. That would actually be detrimental, not helpful. You try to win of course, but you don't start benching rookies cause these games are just too important to build for the future. I see no downside at all on him growing into his role. If we get a decent PG, you'll see Ben start to flourish sooner rather than later. Right now our so called "Big 3" is missing the 3rd piece. Which means we are far from win now mode. We are in asset acquiring phase. I don't think we even have a core. I don't even know that Rudy is a lasting part of the puzzle.

We have one sure thing. Cousins. That's really it. And I strongly think Ben is getting 3 years at least to prove himself. Which makes him at least as likely to be here as 2/3s of the so called big 3, one of which is a FA this year, and the other who may opt out and leave also this season.

When people say win now, what do you mean? The 8 seed and a first round exit? Is that what we're talking about? I see little value in that. Much improved team play and defense is the goal, and only that. That's all the FO has preached all season.

Some of you are digging some deep holes in regards to Ben. Be careful.
+1

It's nice to see that someone else on this board isn't in instant gratification mode. The kid needs time to develop and history shows that players similar to McClemore in age, experience, and talent often take a few years to figure things out.
 
Sorry, I actually thought his name was Christie too lmfao
Except the person above me was writing Christy so I was like man I've been saying his name wrong all these years.
Should have done a quick google search...shame on me. I actually have a poster on my wall with all their names :(
Oops, I can't believe I spelled his name wrong... I knew better also.
 
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1190581

Wizards forum discussing Beal last year went like how we talk about ben. By January they were calling him a bust, he can't shoot, has no handles, and isn't athletic. By the end of February you can see them calling him the second comming. Just like beal it will take tin for ben to get his shot together, if he is still struggling in February March than we can panic.

Mclemore shot better than beal in college and is more athletic so there is hope.
 
+1

It's nice to see that someone else on this board isn't in instant gratification mode. The kid needs time to develop and history shows that players similar to McClemore in age, experience, and talent often take a few years to figure things out.
It's not even the all star break of year 1. I get frustrated too, but it's all part of the process.

If it's the same in year 3, it's a diff talk.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1190581

Wizards forum discussing Beal last year went like how we talk about ben. By January they were calling him a bust, he can't shoot, has no handles, and isn't athletic. By the end of February you can see them calling him the second comming. Just like beal it will take tin for ben to get his shot together, if he is still struggling in February March than we can panic.

Mclemore shot better than beal in college and is more athletic so there is hope.
I think talk of him not being able to dribble without tripping is slightly overstated. Is he an excellent ball handler? No. Is he completely hopeless? I really don't think so.

There is a time for giving up. We are not even close to that point.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think talk of him not being able to dribble without tripping is slightly overstated. Is he an excellent ball handler? No. Is he completely hopeless? I really don't think so.
Just off the top of your head can you name one NBA starting guard who is a worse ballhandler?

He really doesn't have to be great. The SG position in the NBA is incredibly weak right now, no matter what Ben's defense makes it look like. There are plenty of guys out there who are no wizards with the ball. Klay, Green, Reddick etc. aren't dribbling circles around anybody. But Ben is the Jimmer of SGs. Teams now just walk right up and take the ball out of his hands like taking candy from a baby. And he knows it too and plays scared when he has to dribble. Its a giant cap on a guard's career potential.
 
Just off the top of your head can you name one NBA starting guard who is a worse ballhandler?

He really doesn't have to be great. The SG position in the NBA is incredibly weak right now, no matter what Ben's defense makes it look like. There are plenty of guys out there who are no wizards with the ball. Klay, Green, Reddick etc. aren't dribbling circles around anybody. But Ben is the Jimmer of SGs. Teams now just walk right up and take the ball out of his hands like taking candy from a baby. And he knows it too and plays scared when he has to dribble. Its a giant cap on a guard's career potential.
I guess the major question is whether that can be corrected. Klay Thompson did not dribble well when he entered the league as a pure catch and shoot player, but he is serviceable now. There are some undersized 4's that become quality 3's when they learn some ballhandling.

Jimmer was a terrible ballhandler when he entered the league. He isn't great now, but he isn't losing the ball against minor pressure bringing the ball up court. There is definite improvement there. I tend to think that Ben should be able to improve as well to the point that he can pump fake and take two dribbles to the rim on an open lane.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
I don't like the Ray Allen comparison. Ray Allen was better at absolutely everything, even as a rookie. I don't see McLemore ever putting up half the numbers Allen did. Allen averaged 22/5/4 for years and years. We'll be lucky if McLemore can average 13/4/2 with non grotesque shooting percentages.
First of all, the point of any comparison isn't to say this guy 'will be' as good as that player some day. That's absurd, nobody knows who prospects will develop into and every one of them is a unique player. There was no next Lebron James until there was Lebron James. There was no next Kobe Bryant. They just are who they are. So when people say Ray Allen in relation to Ben McLemore, they're saying that an in-his-prime Ben McLemore has a game that might remind you of Ray Allen in some ways -- mainly the way he moves off the ball and how picture perfect his shooting stroke is. Not that he'll be Ray 2.0 or anything.

You also have to keep in mind, Ray Allen like most guys in his generation played three years in college. So he came into the NBA much more prepared than Ben has. And he wasn't a 20-5-4 guy in his rookie season either. Actually, Ben's per36 numbers aren't all that far off from Ray's rookie season. Certainly close enough that you can factor in some expected improvement throughout the rest of the season and Ben being a year younger and project next season to look pretty good. He's already averaging close to your 13/4/2 projection this season per36 minutes as a 20 year old, 30 games into his NBA career, on a team with three dominant players who barely pass him the ball. He'll be fine. Not Ray Allen of course, but well worth holding onto and letting him develop.
 
Just off the top of your head can you name one NBA starting guard who is a worse ballhandler?

He really doesn't have to be great. The SG position in the NBA is incredibly weak right now, no matter what Ben's defense makes it look like. There are plenty of guys out there who are no wizards with the ball. Klay, Green, Reddick etc. aren't dribbling circles around anybody. But Ben is the Jimmer of SGs. Teams now just walk right up and take the ball out of his hands like taking candy from a baby. And he knows it too and plays scared when he has to dribble. Its a giant cap on a guard's career potential.
Of course it's an area of concern, but it's not quite the candy taking scenario. If that were true, it would lead to a lot more than one turnover per game, no? There's not much statistical evidence to say he's handing the ball over every time he touches the ball. Of course he has the benefit in that regard of having teammates who I'm not sure know he's out there 75% the time. Maybe he'd turn it over 4 times a game if he touched the ball. But one per game doesn't back your assertion.

I'm not disagreeing it's a problem. I think you're overstating it a tad.

To answer your question, no, I cannot. But you mentioned a few that aren't exactly great. He'll never be great. But I don't think he needs to be to do what we want him to do.

Off topic: trob is out of the rotation in portland, lots of DNp-CDs adding up.
 
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CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Once MLM got compliments from the likes of Ray Allen and LeBron, and now has his shooting range getting down and he out hustles almost everyone on the team, I'm sure glad we have him now and for the future. It takes time for a rookie with 1-year of college to get into the NBA game and deal with the multitude of opponent 2's as he is doing. The building a culture that Malone wants it takes time, much time. Likely 2 years. It takes vast majority of rookies a couple of years to settle down and hold their own. MLM is doing just fine. ;)
 
I don't see why he can't? The major downfall of McLemore is that he's got low basketball IQ. The game doesn't run smoothly for him. In the 4th quarter against the Rockets, there was a moment when Gay or IT shot the ball and all the players in the post were getting ready for a rebound, then you had Ben who was still running a play and had no idea that a shot had been taken already o_O
I think you're confusing bball IQ and experience. In fact, what you saw in the play you're describing is Ben actually trying to run the plays as the coach intended, Vs. ball watching. Ben is coachable and unselfish. These would be wonderful attributes on a veteran team. Unfortunately, he is on a young team where players are more concerned with proving they belong, than trying to play a team game.

I sometimes think about how I wish we drafted K. Leonard. Then I really think about it and I'm sure Kawhi would have sunk into obscurity on our squad.
 
Of course it's an area of concern, but it's not quite the candy taking scenario. If that were true, it would lead to a lot more than one turnover per game, no? There's not much statistical evidence to say he's handing the ball over every time he touches the ball. Of course he has the benefit in that regard of having teammates who I'm not sure know he's out there 75% the time. Maybe he'd turn it over 4 times a game if he touched the ball. But one per game doesn't back your assertion.

I'm not disagreeing it's a problem. I think you're overstating it a tad.

To answer your question, no, I cannot. But you mentioned a few that aren't exactly great. He'll never be great. But I don't think he needs to be to do what we want him to do.

Off topic: trob is out of the rotation in portland, lots of DNp-CDs adding up.
I agree. Ben doesn't need to be great at handling the ball. He's already better today than he was in summer league at handling the ball. His shot is so quick that he just needs to learn to make one or two dribbles to create some space to get his shot off. And he needs to get the ball when he comes off those screens he's always running around. But give it to him early in the game, so he's not running around in the 3rd quarter trying to figure out how to contribute. That's when he tries to drive to the hoop and gets it stripped.

He would also benefit from a pg who sees the floor well and trusts him to take shots. IT can penetrate and get to the hoop whenever he wants. I wish he understood that the he can kick it out to open teammates, like Ben, more than he does. Over time, it would even make getting to the basket even easier for IT, because player would hesitate on the help D.
 
Ben needs to utilize the pump fake much more, it can help create space to put the ball down for an easy dribble or two and then cap off with a pull-up jumper/lay-up.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Doug Christy was a dream. The kings really made some amazing moves during those years. Even our draft picks were extremely well: Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, Hedo Turkoglu and a few others all became stars in the league at some point in their career...
Ahem. It's Doug CHRISTIE. ;)

Nice point about the draft picks becoming stars at some point in the careers. That was back when Petrie was truly in charge of making the draft picks, and it was an incredible time to be a Kings fan. :)
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I think you're confusing bball IQ and experience. In fact, what you saw in the play you're describing is Ben actually trying to run the plays as the coach intended, Vs. ball watching. Ben is coachable and unselfish. These would be wonderful attributes on a veteran team. Unfortunately, he is on a young team where players are more concerned with proving they belong, than trying to play a team game.

I sometimes think about how I wish we drafted K. Leonard. Then I really think about it and I'm sure Kawhi would have sunk into obscurity on our squad.
It seems several people around here are doing the same thing.
 
S

SacKings2002NBAChampions

Guest
I think you're confusing bball IQ and experience. In fact, what you saw in the play you're describing is Ben actually trying to run the plays as the coach intended, Vs. ball watching. Ben is coachable and unselfish. These would be wonderful attributes on a veteran team. Unfortunately, he is on a young team where players are more concerned with proving they belong, than trying to play a team game.

I sometimes think about how I wish we drafted K. Leonard. Then I really think about it and I'm sure Kawhi would have sunk into obscurity on our squad.
Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the fundamentals of having a high basketball IQ is based on being able to read the game and knowing what is going on in your surroundings at all times. I'm not saying he's completely useless in BBall IQ; however, if this was NBA 2K then he would have a C+ basketball IQ. It's not that big of a deal but it does affect our team in the manner that we can't use him as a ball handler. He doesn't have court vision nor anticipation which I also consider to be a valuable aspects of having a high basketball IQ.

Nothing against Ben, but not all players are like Vlade who had extremely high basketball IQ or Doug Christie who could read the game really well. Ben is just an athletic guard who has the potential to be an awesome shooter.
The difference between Ben and Allen is basketball IQ and ball handling. Otherwise, he will be able to do everything else Allen could/does. Unfortunately, those two things he's lacking is keeping him from being a future hall of famer like Ray Ray.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
Is NBA 2k now a reference source? A game as opposed to humans? This is the Twilight Zone.

I want a credible source of data.