[Grades] Grades v. Spurs 12/29/2013

[KingMilz]

I'nm really not sure where this start Gay at SG nonsense is coming from but it probably needs to stop. Yes Gay is athletic for a SF but he'd be average or subpar as a SG. Asking him to guard the other team's SG is asking for trouble. Unless we go exclusively to zone, playing a big Cuz/JT/Williams/Gay/IT lineup is probably going to blow up in our faces.

I much rather see Williams/Gay on the opposition starting SG than I would Mclemore/Jimmer/Thornton at least you take away the post up option with those 3 SG's you can literally take them every single way to school. It's not like any of our current SG's can stay in front of anyone anyway so better off going with strenght and length.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I'nm really not sure where this start Gay at SG nonsense is coming from but it probably needs to stop. Yes Gay is athletic for a SF but he'd be average or subpar as a SG. Asking him to guard the other team's SG is asking for trouble. Unless we go exclusively to zone, playing a big Cuz/JT/Williams/Gay/IT lineup is probably going to blow up in our faces.

It could have come from the same "out of the box" type of thinking, as starting Derrick Williams at 3, even though Adelman told us that he wasn't a 3

 

[Tetsujin]

It could have come from the same "out the box" type of thinking, as starting Derrick Williams at 3, even though Adelman told us that he wasn't a 3

Except in that case Williams is actually a 3. Gay is also a three. Playing him at the 2 is "out of the box" thinking the same way that playing Tyreke at the 3 was out of the box thinking. In other words, you're playing with fire and your jeans are already smoldering.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Except in that case Williams is actually a 3. Gay is also a three. Playing him at the 2 is "out of the box" thinking the same way that playing Tyreke at the 3 was out of the box thinking. In other words, you're playing with fire and your jeans are already smoldering.

Disagree with that example. Tyreke going from handling the ball as a point guard to a 3 wing player standing around in the corner,..is much different than moving an already ball handling wing player from 3 to 2. They are both "wing" positions and since he handles a lot, it's not a tough move or a move that would affect his style of play much at all.

How do you know he couldn't effectively play two, unless they tried. What indicates that he could not?

 

[SacKings2002NBAChampions]

Our bench scored 12 points

Their bench scored 53 points.

That's a 41 point differential.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't think this team can win too many games unless we can get some more effective bench support.
Granted, Ginobili should be a starter and it's the San Antonio Spurs of all teams.

Overall, great game from Rudy Gay, Demarcus Cousins, and IT.
Cousins continues to go on a tear, and I would be highly disappointed if he didn't make the all-star game.
Rudy Gay seems to be meshing well with this team. Besides his high salary, I think he can bring a lot to this team.

IT is a ridiculous scorer. He could probably put up 25 every night easily. Unfortunately for him, there's a lot more to basketball than scoring. His defense has improved; however, opposing guards keep having field days whenever playing against us. I think the main issue here is that when IT loses his man, there's nobody to pick up that person. We are extremely disorganized on defense, and you can't help but blame the coach on this one. Why are the Spurs so good on defense and team defense especially? Well, Gregg Popovich.
I really like Malone despite his inexperience and think he will do a fantastic job in the NBA, but is it worth having him learn his mistakes through us? I don't know, but I'd keep him around for another year to see what he can do next season as head coach. It's not like there's much better options out there anyways.

Anyhow, lots of room for change and change must happen if we are to become a playoff contender but it will have to be a gradual process as you can't just change your whole roster within a year. Draft pick talk aside, I think the Kings would be smart to make one more trade before the deadline. If we could trade Ben Mac, Jimmer, and a few other players for a couple good if not possible veterans then we'd have a solid bench.
I would try to get Thornton back to what he was doing in the past (being a quality shooter with decent defense). I know this will probably not happen but man it was nice having a quality SG for a while. I'm all for giving Ben Mac another year to see if he's just having a hard time adjusting but man we're giving him all the opportunity in the world. It's not like we're Cleveland over here. It's frustrating to say the least. He had a lot of upside in college but doesn't seem like he's transitioning well. His basketball IQ also seems extremely low. No offense to him but he kind of looks like a dumb guy when you look at him. Ok, that is pretty offensive. Love you Ben Mac I say give him the starting position till the end of the year, nothing to lose unless Thornton becomes a man again.

Lets go KINGS!

 

[Tetsujin]

Disagree with that example. Tyreke going from handling the ball as a point guard to a 3 wing player standing around in the corner,..is much different than moving an already ball handling wing player from 3 to 2. They are both "wing" positions and since he handles a lot, it's not a tough move or a move that would affect his style of play much at all

You're asking a lot of Gay defensively though. He's already big for a SF. Up against smaller twos, he could potentially get his butt handed to him on a continuous basis just as John Salmons, another "ball-handling wing player" who moved from one spot to the other, got his butt handed to him whenever facing a SF taller than him. Some times an apple is just an apple and not an apple that can also be an orange.

 

[Spike]

I think many do not understand the difference between playing the 2 and the 3, especially defensively.

 

[Tetsujin]

Our bench scored 12 points

Their bench scored 53 points.

That's a 41 point differential.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't think this team can win too many games unless we can get some more effective bench support.
Granted, Ginobili should be a starter and it's the San Antonio Spurs of all teams.

Overall, great game from Rudy Gay, Demarcus Cousins, and IT.
Cousins continues to go on a tear, and I would be highly disappointed if he didn't make the all-star game.
Rudy Gay seems to be meshing well with this team. Besides his high salary, I think he can bring a lot to this team.

IT is a ridiculous scorer. He could probably put up 25 every night easily. Unfortunately for him, there's a lot more to basketball than scoring. His defense has improved; however, opposing guards keep having field days whenever playing against us. I think the main issue here is that when IT loses his man, there's nobody to pick up that person. We are extremely disorganized on defense, and you can't help but blame the coach on this one. Why are the Spurs so good on defense and team defense especially? Well, Gregg Popovich.
I really like Malone despite his inexperience and think he will do a fantastic job in the NBA, but is it worth having him learn his mistakes through us? I don't know, but I'd keep him around for another year to see what he can do next season as head coach. It's not like there's much better options out there anyways.

Anyhow, lots of room for change and change must happen if we are to become a playoff contender but it will have to be a gradual process as you can't just change your whole roster within a year. Draft pick talk aside, I think the Kings would be smart to make one more trade before the deadline. If we could trade Ben Mac, Jimmer, and a few other players for a couple good if not possible veterans then we'd have a solid bench.
I would try to get Thornton back to what he was doing in the past (being a quality shooter with decent defense). I know this will probably not happen but man it was nice having a quality SG for a while. I'm all for giving Ben Mac another year to see if he's just having a hard time adjusting but man we're giving him all the opportunity in the world. It's not like we're Cleveland over here. It's frustrating to say the least. He had a lot of upside in college but doesn't seem like he's transitioning well. His basketball IQ also seems extremely low. No offense to him but he kind of looks like a dumb guy when you look at him. Ok, that is pretty offensive. Love you Ben Mac I say give him the starting position till the end of the year, nothing to lose unless Thornton becomes a man again.

Lets go KINGS!

I don't think you and I were watching the same player last year.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

You're asking a lot of Gay defensively though. He's already big for a SF. Up against smaller twos, he could potentially get his butt handed to him on a continuous basis just as John Salmons, another "ball-handling wing player" who moved from one spot to the other, got his butt handed to him whenever facing a SF taller than him. Some times an apple is just an apple and not an apple that can also be an orange.

I'm pick Gay in a one on one matchup against just about any shooting guard in the league. I wouldn't pick Salmons against many small forwards

 

[SacKings2002NBAChampions]

I think Shaq gave Cousins a New Years goal: Make the all-star game and establish yourself as THE top big man in the league. He's really working hard for that spot. His defense is just ughhhhhhh
I don't get why someone that tall and strong cannot average at least 2 blocks per game.
When you look at Cousins stats: 1.8 steals per game and 1.0 blocks per game....not bad. When you see him play, different story. He almost defers from playing defense only to save energy on offense. I think his main issue here is his lack of stamina. Build that and we have a monster.

 

[Spike]

While I'm at it, I don't think scoring is the issue. We could score about, oh, 20 fewer points and win more if we focused on the other side of the ball. Have we still yet to learn than scoring 113 while giving up 120 doesn't equal winning? It's pretty much the same clip as last year.

Replacing a scorer for a defender might actually be more helpful in this scenario. Taking away 10 points a night from the opposition, in my eye, is a lot more helpful than trying to add 10 to our totals.

 

[hrdboild]

I'm used to being the minority opinion, so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you disagree. Even vehemently so. My take on all of this is that McLemore/Williams/Cousins is a lineup which has more potential to develop into a consistent winning team than Thomas/Gay/Cousins. I just don't see this as a "big 3" worthy of the name. It's closer to Arenas/Butler/Jamison than the dynasty in Miami -- a trio which tried to beat Lebron's Cavs year after year and repeatedly came up short in the fourth quarter of every big game. I see three guys who are very good at getting theirs, often at the expense of the team. We need to pick one of them or maybe two of them and go forward with that. Obviously you have to keep Cousins since his positives far outweigh his negatives and you want to build from the inside out. I'm at the point where I'm starting to see IT as a legit option as a starting PG in the league, but only if he's the #2 guy. And then you need to balance the scoring amongst your wing players and emphasize defense at every other position. Conversely, Gay has both the skillset and the mindset to be a go-to scorer but then you need someone at PG who isn't looking for their own shot.

Where does that leave us this season? I don't know. I've been trying to come up with scenarios where it could work but game after game we get the same results, three guys with 15+ shots and everyone else with 1-5. When I watch the games I see players making the game more difficult than it needs to be. All three of these guys are gifted, no doubt about that. Unfortunately none of them has the mindset that they'll do whatever it takes to stop their opponent from scoring. If we're going to be playing them 35-40 minutes every game and leaning heavily on all of them to supply the vast majority of the offense, we're not a winning team. Not with any amount of fill-in-the-blank defensive roleplayers around them. I don't see it happening. That's not any kind of agenda, that's just my opinion. And blaming the bench guys for failing to capitalize on their 3 to 4 good looks a game strikes me as missing the forest for the trees.

 

[VF21]

Stats: 31min 5pts (2-7, 1-3, 0-0) 0reb 0ast 0stl 0blk 2TO
McLemore ( F ) -- Ok, I'll play the heel here: Ben really sucked. A deer in headlights, and looked completely unprepared to play an NBA game against this opponent. Check out the boxscore above. Note the terrible shooting again (and the non-3pt hit was a dunk in the open court). More importantly note the complete lack of anything to the right of the scoring columns. That's how useless he was out there. For 31 very long minutes. But since I took notes, let's break it down: Started the game just at this point predictably missing open jumper after open jumper. These are not hard shots for a shooter. These are not hard shots for a non-shooter actually. But clang, clang, clang, not matter how in rhythm, how cleanly set up, he shoots like me after a night of binge drinking. On the other end in the early going he was at least giving a notcieably improved effort guarding Leonard, and trying to guard Manu, but was just so miserable on the other end it was another night of a giant win-sucking blackhole at SG. Got stripped again just standing there on the perimeter, something that has been happening more of late as I think the word is out about his handle the same way it got out about Jimmer's. Despite the effort, Manu was proving too clever for him on offense, rubbing him off on screens, using that Reke-like Eurostep to dance right around him. It was sweet relief when finally, finally with a minute to go in the half Ben hit a wide open three. But there was no time to celebrate, as Manu went right down the other way and scored on him again. Blew another interior dunk thingie to start the 3rd, but stayed out of the way and did not kill us as all three of our guns went off during the quarter and we stormed out to a lead. Added his only other bucket on an open breakaway dunk during this time. After many minutes of wobbly Thornton action, we brought back Ben in a dubious move that soon went form dubious to disaster. Tried to make a pass on the move while cutting down the lane, but missed, the ball was knocked loose, dove on the floor, and ended up burning one of our timeouts. Just a little late on closeouts around the perimeter as the Spurs began bombing threes form all angles as we allowed another team to drop 30+ 4th quarter points on us. Still, we had our chance. With 3 minutes to go in the game despite our wobbliness, it was still a tie game, and we had the ball with a side inbound. At which point Ben unleashed a terrible entry pass that caused Cuz to cross the midcourt line for a backcourt violation. the Spurs went down the other way and got a 3pt play from Duncan, and we never did recover. Wanting to complete the impression Ben then proceeded to let Manu slap a ball away from him, and be late on every single closeout for the remainder of the game as the Spurs pulled away. So we have a shooter who can't shoot, can't defend, and just looks scattered and clueless out there. What I said both above and below this grade is this: Ben was abysmal, and its not fair to the other guys who are doing enough to beat the very best teams in the league. Nobody in any endeavor likes to see their good work spoiled by an incompetent coworker, and this isn't basketball daycare. Right now he isn't playing like he belongs anymore than Jimmer did 2 years ago or TRob did last year.--Brick

Thank you.

If we cannot find a solution to the Ben situation, all the good being done by our Big 3 will be for naught. I'm hopeful that PDA is well aware of this and is, even at this late hour, working furiously to resolve the problem.

 

[Mad D]

Ben McLemore played a total of 30:43 minutes. He had 5 points on 2-7 shooting (with 1 of 3 from outside the arc). He committed 4 personal fouls and 2 turnovers.

I guess it's just me but I'd like just a bit more from my starting two guard, thank you very much.

Woah those are Stinky Fish numbers. Ben Mackerelmore.

 

[VF21]

Okay, bear with me. This whole Ben McLemore thing has taken on a life of its own. I'm going to split it out into its own thread with a poll... It'll take a few minutes so I'm gonna TEMPORARILY close the thread.

EDIT: I've started the thread for the McLemore discussion. Unfortunately this new software doesn't like to add polls after the fact. If I can figure out how to make it work, we will have a poll... maybe... fingers crossed ... I hope.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

I feel like we are really wasting William's potential by playing him at the 4/coming off the bench. he showed he could become something special in the Dallas game and then Rudy comes and he immediately sits on the bench. IT/Gay/Williams/Thompson/Cousins with BMac off the bench seems like a good solution. Don't see the problem with RUdy at the 2 and Mclemore needs a lighter role (coming off the bench).

 

[ESP47]

Mass, IT had 27pts and 9ast and he's just "fairly effective"?

 

[ppine]

If IT was "fairly effective for most of the night" I can't wait to see what happens when he plays a good game.
Gay showed his talent at both ends.
Cousins has turned into a hard worker that can dominate most teams.
Defense was the difference.
What has happened to the Kings bench?

 

[treach1976]

I wish Jason Jones would STFU. What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room.

I mostly agree... they should get a new whiteboard though.

 

[Bricklayer]

Mass, IT had 27pts and 9ast and he's just "fairly effective"?

It would be more accurate to say IT struggled for half the game, absolutely went supernova for a quarter, and then faded back out to close.

 

[Spike]

If IT was "fairly effective for most of the night" I can't wait to see what happens when he plays a good game.

Defense was the difference.

Linking things together to hopefully point out the issue.

 

[ESP47]

It would be more accurate to say IT struggled for half the game, absolutely went supernova for a quarter, and then faded back out to close.

Does it matter if you get most your stats in 1 quarter vs. 4? IT goes crazy in the 3rd and we take the lead. If IT just has 4 solid quarters, we're close but still losing the entire game.

Just seems like more anti IT propaganda to me.

 

[Kingster]

It would be more accurate to say IT struggled for half the game, absolutely went supernova for a quarter, and then faded back out to close.

Does it matter if you get most your stats in 1 quarter vs. 4? IT goes crazy in the 3rd and we take the lead. If IT just has 4 solid quarters, we're close but still losing the entire game.

Just seems like more anti IT propaganda to me.

If IT had 35 points on 20 shots, 12 assists and 6 rebs there would be negative comments about him taking too many shots away from Cousins and/or Gay. And the funny thing is, one of these days he's going to post those numbers and we'll see empirically whether this is true or not.

 

[Bricklayer]

If IT had 35 points on 20 shots, 12 assists and 6 rebs there would be negative comments about him taking too many shots away from Cousins and/or Gay. And the funny thing is, one of these days he's going to post those numbers and we'll see empirically whether this is true or not.

You have some weird IT fantasies.

 

[Dime Dropper]

IT's main problem (well, aside from the lack of defense) is that even when he explodes and has great periods like last night, he almost always makes some critical mistakes down the stretch. He's not the only one guilty of it of course, but as a PG he is way too loose and careless with the ball when the defense tightens at the end of a close game. He also is prone to taking terrible shots with the game on the line. These are very real flaws, hopefully ones that he can eradicate from his game. They happen far too regularly for them to be glossed over.

I'm not going to get into it any more than that, because apparently acknowledging the weaknesses in his game means you think he's a scrub.

 

[pshn80]

IT's main problem (well, aside from the lack of defense) is that even when he explodes and has great periods like last night, he almost always makes some critical mistakes down the stretch. He's not the only one guilty of it of course, but as a PG he is way too loose and careless with the ball when the defense tightens at the end of a close game. He also is prone to taking terrible shots with the game on the line. These are very real flaws, hopefully ones that he can eradicate from his game. They happen far too regularly for them to be glossed over.

I'm not going to get into it any more than that, because apparently acknowledging the weaknesses in his game means you think he's a scrub.

Acknowledging the weaknesses in his game has been done over and over and over ad naseum and three times as much as any good he does. Lest we forget.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Acknowledging the weaknesses in his game has been done over and over and over ad naseum and three times as much as any good he does. Lest we forget.

Those mistakes will continue to be brought up as long as he's consistently making them, as with any other player. Especially when G+J and some on this very forum would have you believe that he's a superstar.

 

[pshn80]

Those mistakes will continue to be brought up as long as he's consistently making them, as with any other player. Especially when G+J and some on this very forum would have you believe that he's a superstar.

And what kind of a star do you think he is? Let's grade the whole player. Since I asked you that question I guess I owe you my answer. I think he is very accomplished scorer who is very versatile and maybe unstoppable. He is quite competent in other parts of his game. He has difficulty (built in) with significant parts of his defensive play, and his aggressiveness which is a big factor in his offense is also the cause of flaws in his ball handling, passing and game judgement. Bottom line - not a star but a pretty damn good player and one of the best on the team. Now give me an overall.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

OK, I think its time for many to step away from the cliff for a moment.

The Kings, with a new 2A/2B offensive centerpiece, having only 2 full practices together, go into San Antonio on the road and nearly pull off a win against the defending Western Conference champions. The loss largely being because 1) offensive execution died down the stretch, and 2) a 20 year old rookie mentally imploded both offensively and defensively.

This game was tied with three minutes to go. Its hard enough beating the Spurs on the road with a veteran crew having a season of experience together. The fact that the Kings didn’t win given the circumstances isn’t particularly upsetting. That our best unit didn’t execute in crunch time against one of the top defensive teams in the league shouldn’t be a call to arms when that unit has two full practices together.

You can see the talent level on this team starting to improve because we even had a shot to win this game. Obviously its nice to win, but on a team that is 9-20 winning isn’t exactly a matter of life and death. We’re too far off from playoff contention. Right now, its about building the talent level of the roster. So far we have options 1-2-3 covered, all of whom are playing exceptionally well together. The next is to see what we can do about the pieces next to our core trio.

Obviously Ben is going to be a part of that discussion. As a 20 year old kid, the deer in headlights moniker fits him rather well. He’s got potential, but its looking more and more that the team is going to be ready to win much faster than Ben’s development is progressing so far. So we might end up trading him for an upgrade at the position (I mentioned that Afflalo might be available in Orlando) who is more ready to win now.

Of course this year is lost, but the benchmark was never really making the playoffs this year. The way things are progressing I can see us having a playoff-caliber roster by 2015, after which of course we would be a few moves and a couple years of IT and Cousins’ development away from championship contender.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m content with kicking back and watching the rise.

 

[Glenn]

OK, I think its time for many to step away from the cliff for a moment.

The Kings, with a new 2A/2B offensive centerpiece, having only 2 full practices together, go into San Antonio on the road and nearly pull off a win against the defending Western Conference champions. The loss largely being because 1) offensive execution died down the stretch, and 2) a 20 year old rookie mentally imploded both offensively and defensively.

This game was tied with three minutes to go. Its hard enough beating the Spurs on the road with a veteran crew having a season of experience together. The fact that the Kings didn’t win given the circumstances isn’t particularly upsetting. That our best unit didn’t execute in crunch time against one of the top defensive teams in the league shouldn’t be a call to arms when that unit has two full practices together.

You can see the talent level on this team starting to improve because we even had a shot to win this game. Obviously its nice to win, but on a team that is 9-20 winning isn’t exactly a matter of life and death. We’re too far off from playoff contention. Right now, its about building the talent level of the roster. So far we have options 1-2-3 covered, all of whom are playing exceptionally well together. The next is to see what we can do about the pieces next to our core trio.

Obviously Ben is going to be a part of that discussion. As a 20 year old kid, the deer in headlights moniker fits him rather well. He’s got potential, but its looking more and more that the team is going to be ready to win much faster than Ben’s development is progressing so far. So we might end up trading him for an upgrade at the position (I mentioned that Afflalo might be available in Orlando) who is more ready to win now.

Of course this year is lost, but the benchmark was never really making the playoffs this year. The way things are progressing I can see us having a playoff-caliber roster by 2015, after which of course we would be a few moves and a couple years of IT and Cousins’ development away from championship contender.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m content with kicking back and watching the rise.

I AM kicking back. All of the angst simply isn't in my make up about this team. We need role players. Those are easier to find than stars. We need a rim protector and perimeter defender. As to the bench, when Landry comes back we aren't as bad as people think. Of course we are lacking a pg. Then we need time together. This is seldom mentioned. A lot has changed on this team in a very short time. Let's let the dust settle and at least let some of our players unpack.