[Grades] Grades v. Hawks 12/18/2013

[kupman]

I still like where this team is headed. I think that we are much better than we were 1 month ago. Our D certainly needs to improve as you can't expect this team to score more than 120/game to get wins. Having said that, I think that a different converation would be happening if the Hawks did not shoot crazy good as they did last night. When a team shoots 60% from 3, they are probably going to beat any team. Most teams cannot shoot 60% from 3 if they are alone in the gym.

If the Hawks shot a more reasonable 35-40% from 3 we may have gotten a win against a playoff team on their home court on the back side of a back to back. A little luck would also help in addition better D.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

You know, much has been made about IT's defense on Teague, or Cousins defense on Horford - Both bad, by the way ..

But at the very least, Thomas matched Teague. Cousins matched Horford. And Horford is supposed to be very good defender. Good scorers score in the NBA. There needs to be more resistance than the Kings provided tonight, no doubt, but Teague averages 16 points and he scored 18. Horford was the one that went far beyond his season averages.

But those guys are good. That's my point. They play well against most NBA teams.

Kyle Korver killed us. That's what drives me crazy. He scored 15 points above his season average. I did a little digging into Korvers numbers.

Korver has scored at least double digits in 14 out of 22 games. In those 14 games, only 4 of those double digits games came against a top 10 defense in OPPG, and only 3 in OPFG%. These numbers include a game against Charlotte, a top 5 defense where he only scored 11 points (still below his season average, but above double digits).

The point being, stupid teams let Kyle Korver score. Dumb teams. Bad teams. Guess what? the 28 points he scored against the Kings last night was a season high. I don't know how many of Teague's assists came off of Korver shots, but I blame whoever was guarding Korver for that. Do. Not. Help. Off. Korver. It's not that complicated.

 

[The_Jamal]

You know, much has been made about IT's defense on Teague, or Cousins defense on Horford - Both bad, by the way ..

But at the very least, Thomas matched Teague. Cousins matched Horford. And Horford is supposed to be very good defender. Good scorers score in the NBA. There needs to be more resistance than the Kings provided tonight, no doubt, but Teague averages 16 points and he scored 18. Horford was the one that went far beyond his season averages.

But those guys are good. That's my point. They play well against most NBA teams.

Kyle Korver killed us. That's what drives me crazy. He scored 15 points above his season average. I did a little digging into Korvers numbers.

Korver has scored at least double digits in 14 out of 22 games. In those 14 games, only 4 of those double digits games came against a top 10 defense in OPPG, and only 3 in OPFG%. These numbers include a game against Charlotte, a top 5 defense where he only scored 11 points (still below his season average, but above double digits).

The point being, stupid teams let Kyle Korver score. Dumb teams. Bad teams. Guess what? the 28 points he scored against the Kings last night was a season high. I don't know how many of Teague's assists came off of Korver shots, but I blame whoever was guarding Korver for that. Do. Not. Help. Off. Korver. It's not that complicated.

Indeed. And they got 6-9 shooting for 14 points from Carrol. Like... You should never allow Korver and Carroll to drop 40 on you. You can live with Teague and Horford beating you. Not Kyle Korver and Carroll.

 

[ppine]

I heartily agree with the Jamal. Defense in the NBA takes five guys.

On this forum Cousins usually gets a free pass for his short comings, and IT rarely does.

 

[Glenn]

I heartily agree with the Jamal. Defense in the NBA takes five guys.

On this forum Cousins usually gets a free pass for his short comings, and IT rarely does.

I think that's true to a certain extent but I think many who have IT on a short leash really want him coming off the bench. I personally would like Cousins to be perfect but realize it isn't going to happen and that a nice defensive presence in the paint with him would help a lot. This is a two part answer: Cousins needs a partner and IT still needs to come off the bench. Neither issue is going to be resolved soon and I think we all need to calm down and realize that.

 

[wazzups]

Our defense is so real.
About as real as the beachfront property on the moon that I have for sale.
Its free for only 9.95 shipping and handling.
We do not have any guards that can play decent defense and we certainly do not have any defensive scheme in place to compensate for that.....hence the results we see here
But I will continue to watch as you never know what will be changed next...we have changed things to the point where we can truly see the main weakness is our guard defense instead of not having a small forward....its called progress

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

People who want to know why Cousins gets a "pass" aren't giving the matter much thought: Cousins gets a "pass" because defense-bending, franchise cornerstone bigs who can do what he does don't grow on trees.

And people who want to know why Thomas doesn't get a "pass" also aren't giving the matter much thought: Thomas doesn't get a "pass" because no-defense-playing, miniature chuckers are a nickel a busload. The D-League is full of them. Hell, the Kings themselves have three of them, and have gotten rid of at least three more in the last four years.

There are at least a dozen guys nailed to benches around the league right now that could do what Thomas does, given the minutes and shots. And there'll be another dozen next year. And the year after that. There might not be two more guys Cousins' size to come into the league during the entirety of his career who can do what he does.

 

[Hallama]

Not liking the late 3rd to early 4th rotations Malone is using. Yeah, the bench sucks, but it's now two games in a row where the bench has given the other team a 6-8 point lead halfway through the 4th, and the starters just come back in in flail mode. Would like to see the starters back with 10 minutes to go rather than 6 or 7. Too late. Start mixing the bench in with 6 minutes left in the 3rd, stagger them in. No way should this team have an entire bench lineup anytime in the 4th.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

There are at least a dozen guys nailed to benches around the league right now that could do what Thomas does, given the minutes and shots. And there'll be another dozen next year. And the year after that.

Yeah, ok. Just no.

I'm all for not giving Isaiah a pass defensively but this is just ignoring how well Isaiah has played as a scorer this year.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah, ok. Just no.

I'm all for not giving Isaiah a pass defensively but this is just ignoring how well Isaiah has played as a scorer this year.

co-signed

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yeah, ok. Just no.

I'm all for not giving Isaiah a pass defensively but this is just ignoring how well Isaiah has played as a scorer this year.

It's not ignoring a damned thing. You're telling me that Patty Mills, Matthew Dellavedova, John Jackson, Reggie Jackson, Jared Cunningham, Brian Roberts, John Lucas, Andrew Goudelock, Eric Maynor, Shelvin Mack, Josh Akognon, Scott Machado couldn't score 19-20 if you gave them seventeen shots a game? Yeah, right.

 

[Honolulu Kings Fan]

It's not ignoring a damned thing. You're telling me that Patty Mills, Matthew Dellavedova, John Jackson, Reggie Jackson, Jared Cunningham, Brian Roberts, John Lucas, Andrew Goudelock, Eric Maynor, Shelvin Mack, Josh Akognon, Scott Machado couldn't score 19-20 if you gave them seventeen shots a game? Yeah, right.

I like how you fudge the numbers in both directions to make him seem less efficient. There's a reason his PER is so high. For the season he's averaging 18.9ppg on 13.6 shots a game and 5.5ast. In December his average is 21.6ppg on 16 shots a game and 7.1ast. The fact that anyone is complaining about IT's scoring is laughable considering what we're getting from Ben, MT, Outlaw, and Jimmer.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

It's not ignoring a damned thing. You're telling me that Patty Mills, Matthew Dellavedova, John Jackson, Reggie Jackson, Jared Cunningham, Brian Roberts, John Lucas, Andrew Goudelock, Eric Maynor, Shelvin Mack, Josh Akognon, Scott Machado couldn't score 19-20 if you gave them seventeen shots a game? Yeah, right.

I sure hope you're not suggesting those guys can score like Isaiah is scoring this year so far. I really, really, really hope not.

 

[The_Jamal]

I sure hope you're not suggesting those guys can score like Isaiah is scoring this year so far. I really, really, really hope not.

Of course he is. 20 PPG scorers just grow on trees ya know?

 

[VF21]

Congratulations. You guys have officially sucked the life out of another thread.

(Just my personal non-mod opinion, BTW)

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I like how you fudge the numbers in both directions to make him seem less efficient. There's a reason his PER is so high. For the season he's averaging 18.9ppg on 13.6 shots a game and 5.5ast. In December his average is 21.6ppg on 16 shots a game and 7.1ast. The fact that anyone is complaining about IT's scoring is laughable considering what we're getting from Ben, MT, Outlaw, and Jimmer.

If that's what you got out of my post, you read it wrong. I'm not complaining about his scoring; I'm saying that there's nothing inherently unique about it, given the opportunity he's been given. Isaiah Thomas is not a once-in-a-generation player. He's not even a once-a-year player. There are guys drafted into the league who can do what he does, all. The. Time. They're not taken with the last pick in the draft, but you can't swing a dead cat in the NBA without hitting two guys that could score 19-20, if you let him shoot the ball enough times. You just don't know "for sure" that they can do it, until they actually do it. But, if you think that I'm wrong, then I have two words for you: Ronald Murray.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Of course he is. 20 PPG scorers just grow on trees ya know?

Would you like to do a comparison of how many little guys in the last 15 years have had a season of 18.9/2.4/5.5, versus big guys who've had a season of 22.7/10.8/3.2? Please say yes.

And yeah, 20ppg scorers kinda do grow on trees. It's a question of opportunity. There are two hundred guys in the league that could score 20 points, if you gave them seventeen shots... but how many guys get seventeen shots? If you want to know why Cousins gets slack and Thomas doesn't, you don't have to look any further than that.

 

[The_Jamal]

Would you like to do a comparison of how many little guys in the last 15 years have had a season of 18.9/2.4/5.5, versus big guys who've had a season of 22.7/10.8/3.2? Please say yes.

No. Because I already know what it is.

FYI, IT is 22-7-3 with starter minutes. Big difference

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No. Because I already know what it is.

FYI, IT is 22-7-3 with starter minutes. Big difference

That doesn't shorten the list by quite as much as you might think it would.

 

[The_Jamal]

Would you like to do a comparison of how many little guys in the last 15 years have had a season of 18.9/2.4/5.5, versus big guys who've had a season of 22.7/10.8/3.2? Please say yes.

And yeah, 20ppg scorers kinda do grow on trees. It's a question of opportunity. There are two hundred guys in the league that could score 20 points, if you gave them seventeen shots... but how many guys get seventeen shots? If you want to know why Cousins gets slack and Thomas doesn't, you don't have to look any further than that.

IT season numbers:

18.9 PPG, 5.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 30.4 MPG, 13.6 FGA/game

.595 TS%, 27.2% USG

IT as a starter:

22.5 PPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 RPG. 16.5 FGA/game, 38 MPG

.602 TS%, 23.9% USG

Go ask 30 GMs if they'll take 22 PPG on 16.5 shots and see what they say. I'm sure the response will be "Oh I have Brian Roberts, no need." Right?

You're absolutely crazy if you there are 200 guys who can put those numbers up. Absolutely nuts. There aren't 20 guys in the NBA who score with that high USG% and efficiency.

Bash his defense all you want. I concur he sucks on that end. It is physically impossible to be more wrong with your assertions about his offensive game though

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Last season, Thomas only managed to average 14/2/4 as a starter. Double his shot attempts, and suddenly his scoring average goes from 14 to 22. Double his touches, and suddenly his assists go from 4 to 7.

But yeah, I'm sure nobody else in the league could do that...

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

IT season numbers:

18.9 PPG, 5.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 30.4 MPG, 13.6 FGA/game

.595 TS%, 27.2% USG

IT as a starter:

22.5 PPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 RPG. 16.5 FGA/game, 38 MPG

.602 TS%, 23.9% USG

Go ask 30 GMs if they'll take 22 PPG on 16.5 shots and see what they say. I'm sure the response will be "Oh I have Brian Roberts, no need." Right?

You're absolutely crazy if you there are 200 guys who can put those numbers up. Absolutely nuts. There aren't 20 guys in the NBA who score with that high USG% and efficiency.

Bash his defense all you want. I concur he sucks on that end. It is physically impossible to be more wrong with your assertions about his offensive game though

Oh no, advanced stats! Boo! Hiss!

But just to reinforce your point, here is the list of players who have a higher TS% while on an equal or higher usage rate this year while scoring at least 20 ppg per 36 minutes:

James Harden
Stephen Curry
Lebron James
Kevin Durant

Thats the entire list.

But yeah, you can find those guys just lying under rocks

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Oh no, advanced stats! Boo! Hiss!

But just to reinforce your point, here is the list of players who have a higher TS% while on an equal or higher usage rate this year while scoring at least 20 ppg per 36 minutes:

James Harden
Stephen Curry
Lebron James
Kevin Durant

Thats the entire list.

But yeah, you can find those guys just lying under rocks

1. This year? Is this the NBA's inagural season?
2. Usage is precisely the issue. My point is that there are tons of players who could do that, if they had the same usage rate... they just don't get the same usage.

 

[The_Jamal]

Last season, Thomas only managed to average 14/2/4 as a starter. Double his shot attempts, and suddenly his scoring average goes from 14 to 22. Double his touches, and suddenly his assists go from 4 to 7.

But yeah, I'm sure nobody else in the league could do that...

Isaiah Thomas:

Starter

22.5 PPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 RPG. 16.5 FGA/game, 38 MPG.602 TS%, 23.9 USG%

Season numbers:

18.9 PPG, 5.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 13.6 FGA/game, 30.4 MPG, 33.1% AST, .595 TS%, 27.2 USG%

Stephen Curry:

24 PPG, 9 APG, 4.2 RPG, .603 TS%, 18 FGA/game 42% AST, 37.3 MPG, 28.8% USG

Kyrie Irving:

21 PPG, 6 APG, 3.1 RPG, .502% TS, 18.9 FGA/game, 33.5% AST, 34.4 MPG, 30.9% USG

Damian Lillard:

21.3 PPG, 5.9 APG, 3.7 RPG, .571% TS, 16.1 FGA/game, 25.3% AST, 36 MPG, 25.1% USG

Tony Parker:

17.5 PPG, 6.1 APG, 2.6 RPG, .557% TS, 14.3 FGA/game, 32.7% AST, 30.4 MPG, 27.2% USG

Chris Paul:

19.5 PPG, 11.3 APG, 4.7 RPG, .588% TS, 14 FGA/game, 55.3% AST, 34.5 MPG, 24.7% USG


So let me get this straight. Give Brian Roberts 30-38 MPG and he can score on par with 5 of the top offensive PG's in the game? Because that's what you're essentially saying here

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Isaiah Thomas:

Starter

22.5 PPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 RPG. 16.5 FGA/game, 38 MPG.602 TS%, 23.9 USG%

Season numbers:

18.9 PPG, 5.5 APG, 2.4 RPG, 13.6 FGA/game, 30.4 MPG, 33.1% AST, .595 TS%, 27.2 USG%

Stephen Curry:

24 PPG, 9 APG, 4.2 RPG, .603 TS%, 18 FGA/game 42% AST, 37.3 MPG, 28.8% USG

Kyrie Irving:

21 PPG, 6 APG, 3.1 RPG, .502% TS, 18.9 FGA/game, 33.5% AST, 34.4 MPG, 30.9% USG

Damian Lillard:

21.3 PPG, 5.9 APG, 3.7 RPG, .571% TS, 16.1 FGA/game, 25.3% AST, 36 MPG, 25.1% USG

Tony Parker:

17.5 PPG, 6.1 APG, 2.6 RPG, .557% TS, 14.3 FGA/game, 32.7% AST, 30.4 MPG, 27.2% USG

Chris Paul:

19.5 PPG, 11.3 APG, 4.7 RPG, .588% TS, 14 FGA/game, 55.3% AST, 34.5 MPG, 24.7% USG


So let me get this straight. Give Brian Roberts 30-38 MPG and he can score on par with 5 of the top offensive PG's in the game? Because that's what you're essentially saying here

I guess we won't know until they give it to him, will we? We didn't know that Thomas could do it, until we gave it to him...

Flip Murray did the exact same thing that Thomas is doing, back in 2003-04, on a higher TS%, when Ray Allen was injured. Mike James did the exact same thing that Thomas is doing, back in 2005-06, on a higher TS%, for an entire season. If you want to factor in Per/36, Jeff McInnis has done it, Sebastian Telfair has done it. Hell, even Dajuan Wagner has done it. And this isn't meant as a comprehensive list, by any means, it's just to point out that it's been done by people who aren't special players. Give a guy seventeen shots, and see what happens.

You can say that someone who's been given a chance and failed can't do it. You can't say that someone who hasn't been given a chance at all can't do it. Because you just don't know.

 

[pshn80]

It's not ignoring a damned thing. You're telling me that Patty Mills, Matthew Dellavedova, John Jackson, Reggie Jackson, Jared Cunningham, Brian Roberts, John Lucas, Andrew Goudelock, Eric Maynor, Shelvin Mack, Josh Akognon, Scott Machado couldn't score 19-20 if you gave them seventeen shots a game? Yeah, right.

Don't know any of the folks you mention but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your statement isn't true or if by stretch it could be probably not one of those guys could off half that many good shots like our wonder does. Even if what I say is accurate it doesn't solve the problem we have with IT's massive minutes of play. No need for your exaggeration.p

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Don't know any of the folks you mention but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your statement isn't true or if by stretch it could be probably not one of those guys could off half that many good shots like our wonder does. Even if what I say is accurate it doesn't solve the problem we have with IT's massive minutes of play. No need for your exaggeration.p

I'm not exaggerating: you never know what a guy could produce with 38 minutes and 17 shots a game, until you give him such. But those are, in fact, guys that I believe could do it.

EDIT - Since Brian Roberts name has been mentioned more than once... again, we don't really know what he could do with as many minutes and touches as Thomas is getting, or how efficient he'd be with it, but I can tell you this: Brian Roberts has only had two games in his career where he took more than nine shots, and scored fewer than ten points. Thomas has done it once this season, and eleven times overall. He may or may not be able to post a TS% of .602 while putting up the same numbers, but it damned sure ain't a given that he can't.

 

[rainmaker]

To me, IT comes in the same mold as guys like Nate Robinson, Jarret Jack, Nick Young and Aaron Brooks. In the right situation when there's a lack of fire power on the squad, they can find themselves with more touches, more shots and more opportunities. And, they're all streaky scorers who can get hot and be an asset but far from starter material or someone who can be counted on nightly.

I'd also say, looking at how much those guys move from team to team, when referring to that type of player such as IT is, the value is overstated. Their value is usually higher when their team is poor and has a lack of offensive options and lower on playoff caliber teams with legit 1st, 2nd and 3rd options.

Put little Nate on this team the last two years instead of IT and he likely fills a very similar role and puts up good numbers. Doesn't make him more than he is which is a journeyman bench spark who team after team hasn't hesitated to let walk. Young put up good numbers for a crap Wash team, yet could barely find a job afterwards. Put up over 17 for Wash, they didn't want him back, went to the Clips where he was terrible, then back to Wash for half a year and they still didn't want him after his 2nd stint there, then to Philly for a year, now with the Lakers putting up 15 per but they have a real lack of scoring threats. Hou fans thought Brooks was going to be great too when he put up 19 PPG and won the MIP award, yet it's been completely downhill since then including a stint in China. All these players fill similar roles and their successes have been very situational.

IT's stats this year are a little misleading. He's filling a huge void. Roster is still a mess. Of course as a 6th man his numbers would be good when he's the only other scoring options outside Cuz. Anyone think he'd put up 17 per if we had a top 12 PG playing 35+ mins per night, alongside Gay/Cuz and hopefully a better SG, either a more mature MLM or someone else? Likely not as both his mins and touches would be cut down. Would we not get a top 12 PG to play 35+ mins to ensure IT gets his mins? I highly doubt it, and that's the same thing guys like Jack and Nate have ran into. As soon as there's an upgrade, they become expendable or their role shrinks.

I have no problem with IT being our 6th man going forward. Get a legit top PG and have IT come in in attack mode for 15-20 mins per night and we're likely a superior team. I don't see him being more than that when we're a playoff team and that's not a knock on him. He'd be valuable in that role, as BJax was in his role.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I have no problem with IT being our 6th man going forward. Get a legit top PG and have IT come in in attack mode for 15-20 mins per night and we're likely a superior team. I don't see him being more than that when we're a playoff team and that's not a knock on him. He'd be valuable in that role, as BJax was in his role.

And that's really all I'm saying, and I've been saying it for weeks now. Thomas is great as a Sixth Man, energy guy coming off the bench. He's also proven that, as a starter, given minutes and touches, that he can produce as well, but he's not unique in that regard. Thomas fans seem to have a problem comprehending that me saying that he's not special is not the same thing as me saying he stinks. He's a good player, doing what he's been asked to do, and doing a good enough job at it... mostly. But there are a lot of players like that. There aren't a lot of players like Cousins...

And that was the heart of my original point. If you want to know why Cousins gets slack for his defense around here and Thomas doesn't, the answer to that question is simple: it's because Thomas is replaceable, and Cousins isn't.

 

[sdballer]

I'm obviously not a huge fan of IT in his current role, but I don't know that how he's scoring the way he is is that easy to replicate. His efficiency right now is elite and a lot of guys with higher usage and minutes couldn't do what he's doing.

My bigger issue is who cares? He's an elite scoring 5'9" pg that is a far below average defender and inconsistent distributor. That's a deadly combination for any team, especially ones where you already have other offensive options and below average defenders across the lineup. He's a guy that will ultimately put up impressive scoring stats on bad teams and will likely bounce around until someone can fit him in an ideal 6th man role. I'm not opposed to that being us but its highly unlikely his skill set will ever fit as a starting pg on a really good team.

A final hypothetical to IT's supporters: As a free agent who has such terrific skills, what kind of offers will he get? His value will support one side of the coin or the other.