[Grades] Grades v. Pistons 11/15/2013

[Bricklayer]

I had a good view of the offense in the second half from section 110. It seemed like every time Thornton just camped out in the corner in front of us and didn't move. I'm not sure if that was by design (to keep the defenders out of the paint) or lack of effort, but it didn't seem to help.

You know, I of course am watching tonight as New Orleans blows out Philly, and Tyreke is coming on line now with his second strong game. And this of course again leads me to reflect on the current two fisted gaping hole we have at not only SF, but now SG as well. But that said, I am far from sure there would have been any place for Reke as one of our "shooting guards". In fact our shooting guards barely have a place in the offense at all. (of course move him over the ball and I'm pretty sure he can do better than 8 TOs at the PG). Its actually why the rumors we might like Shumpert have some logic behind them. Malone's offense does not appear to contemplate shooting guards as major scorers, just as spot shooting spacers. if that's true, then that's the perfect role for a "3 and D" guy. Since the SGs are going to spend most of their time without the ball or shots, then what you are really looing for is a guy who is really good during all those moments when he's not featured and not scoring.

 

[KingMilz]

Had Outlaw bumped knees with Salmons or Thornton he would have got a A+

 

[mac]

You know, I of course am watching tonight as New Orleans blows out Philly, and Tyreke is coming on line now with his second strong game. And this of course again leads me to reflect on the current two fisted gaping hole we have at not only SF, but now SG as well. But that said, I am far from sure there would have been any place for Reke as one of our "shooting guards". In fact our shooting guards barely have a place in the offense at all. (of course move him over the ball and I'm pretty sure he can do better than 8 TOs at the PG). Its actually why the rumors we might like Shumpert have some logic behind them. Malone's offense does not appear to contemplate shooting guards as major scorers, just as spot shooting spacers. if that's true, then that's the perfect role for a "3 and D" guy. Since the SGs are going to spend most of their time without the ball or shots, then what you are really looing for is a guy who is really good during all those moments when he's not featured and not scoring.

Another question on somewhat basketball history - aside from teams that played the triangle offense how many winning teams featured low post scorers with star shooting guards that don't just spot up? in recent years I can think only of Miami with Shaq and Wade. Celtics and Pistons had some of the best off-ball SGs, and even then they were third options. How about pre 2000?

 

[Bricklayer]

Another question on somewhat basketball history - aside from teams that played the triangle offense how many winning teams featured low post scorers with star shooting guards that don't just spot up? in recent years I can think only of Miami with Shaq and Wade. Celtics and Pistons had some of the best off-ball SGs, and even then they were third options. How about pre 2000?

Shaq had them at every stop (Nick Anderson/Penny, Kobe, Wade). Hakeem the second time through with Drexler. The first time through Hakeem had a gunner guard in Vernon Maxwell. During Ewing's peak years it was another gunner guard in John Starks. In his later years a star type in Sprewell.

The lesson probably is that while straight spot shooting spacers make logical sense surrounding great centers, its more important to have a second star, no matter the exact traits.

 

[VF21]

I wish we could re-do several of our past drafts. In truth, we could be a playoff team right now, if not for a couple of bad drafts and a few bad trades. I guess a lot of teams could say that as well.

You're forgetting one important thing. The Maloofs didn't want us to be a playoff team. They wanted us to suck so badly that there would be no opposition to moving the team to Anaheim... or Virginia Beach ... or Seattle.

We can talk about reinventing the wheel all we like, but the vehicle wasn't going anywhere.

 

[Tetsujin]

You know, I of course am watching tonight as New Orleans blows out Philly, and Tyreke is coming on line now with his second strong game. And this of course again leads me to reflect on the current two fisted gaping hole we have at not only SF, but now SG as well. But that said, I am far from sure there would have been any place for Reke as one of our "shooting guards". In fact our shooting guards barely have a place in the offense at all. (of course move him over the ball and I'm pretty sure he can do better than 8 TOs at the PG). Its actually why the rumors we might like Shumpert have some logic behind them. Malone's offense does not appear to contemplate shooting guards as major scorers, just as spot shooting spacers. if that's true, then that's the perfect role for a "3 and D" guy. Since the SGs are going to spend most of their time without the ball or shots, then what you are really looing for is a guy who is really good during all those moments when he's not featured and not scoring.

The think that's still a concern with Reke is that his outside shot has not improved at all despite 4 years in the league. At what point does unfulfilled potential just become a disappointing flaw or missing facet in his game. Rather at what point does he go from the next D-Wade to a better version of Larry Hughes?

 

[mac]

The think that's still a concern with Reke is that his outside shot has not improved at all despite 4 years in the league. At what point does unfulfilled potential just become a disappointing flaw or missing facet in his game. Rather at what point does he go from the next D-Wade to a better version of Larry Hughes?

Has not improved at all? Really?

 

[Tetsujin]

Has not improved at all? Really?

His outside shot hasn't to that great a degree. Other aspects of his game have developed but to such a degree that they mask his lack of shooting. I'm not trying to bash Tyreke but it's not like he's become Oscar Robertson since he went to New Orleans

 

[bajaden]

You're forgetting one important thing. The Maloofs didn't want us to be a playoff team. They wanted us to suck so badly that there would be no opposition to moving the team to Anaheim... or Virginia Beach ... or Seattle.

We can talk about reinventing the wheel all we like, but the vehicle wasn't going anywhere.

No, I didn't forget. I was just living in an idealistic world for a moment. Unfortunately we live in reality.

 

[bajaden]

His outside shot hasn't to that great a degree. Other aspects of his game have developed but to such a degree that they mask his lack of shooting. I'm not trying to bash Tyreke but it's not like he's become Oscar Robertson since he went to New Orleans

I feel sorry for Tyreke, as much as its possible to feel sorry for someone making 11 or 12 mil a year. Prior to his draft, I thought he could be a star. Of course everyone wanted Rubio at the time, and that was understandable. Tyreke hadn't gotten the press adoration that Rubio had. Then he had that magical freshman year and won ROY. It seemed there was nowhere to go but up from there. I get angry when I think about how the Maloofs, not only tried to destroy the team, but in the process destroyed the natural progress of its players, especially Tyreke. To see him come off the bench is painful, despite how successful he might be. He's a player that I saw as a star in the league, and an important part of the Kings. Circumstance dictated otherwise. He may not be Oscar Robertson, but for a brief moment in time, he shared the same rare air. I truly, truly wish him well.

 

[Tetsujin]

I feel sorry for Tyreke, as much as its possible to feel sorry for someone making 11 or 12 mil a year. Prior to his draft, I thought he could be a star. Of course everyone wanted Rubio at the time, and that was understandable. Tyreke hadn't gotten the press adoration that Rubio had. Then he had that magical freshman year and won ROY. It seemed there was nowhere to go but up from there. I get angry when I think about how the Maloofs, not only tried to destroy the team, but in the process destroyed the natural progress of its players, especially Tyreke. To see him come off the bench is painful, despite how successful he might be. He's a player that I saw as a star in the league, and an important part of the Kings. Circumstance dictated otherwise. He may not be Oscar Robertson, but for a brief moment in time, he shared the same rare air. I truly, truly wish him well.

As do I. I just feel as though all this pining over his going to New Orleans is largely pining over the player that he could have been rather than the player he currently is. Yes, he is among the best in the league at attack the rim and his off the ball game has improved but without the ability to shoot the ball at even a rudimentarily respectable level, both points are moot. Could he have been a superstar for us? Yes. But that ship has long since sailed.

 

[Bricklayer]

As do I. I just feel as though all this pining over his going to New Orleans is largely pining over the player that he could have been rather than the player he currently is.

I always find that line of argument odd.

Our 2 (let's even say 3 with Jimmer) SGs are shooting .366, .383 and .375. We're getting a 9.4 PER out of the entire position combined. Last year we got a 17.8 PER. The player we traded the nonshooter for is a noted nonshooter himself, and shooting .308 from 3pt land. Last year Reke himself shot .338 from 3pt land. Meanwhile we don't have a guard on the roster who is keeping his man in front of him, or who can physically match up to a power player. The best guard on our team is now a 5'9" guy who likes throwing the ball at the hoop a real real lot. We completely lack a second weapon in the starting lineup.

But yes. Obviously people missing Reke must be hung up on the idea he's going to average 30ppg.

 

[Tetsujin]

But yes. Obviously people missing Reke must be hung up on the idea he's going to average 30ppg.

There's room for disagreement without condescension. I identify with your argument and have largely agreed with your points of contention regarding our front office throughout the offseason. That said, considering what Tyreke is (or isn't) doing this season and the blatant bloat of his contract, I actually do think that letting him go has made us better long term.

 

[Chubbs]

I always find that line of argument odd.

Our 2 (let's even say 3 with Jimmer) SGs are shooting .366, .383 and .375. We're getting a 9.4 PER out of the entire position combined. Last year we got a 17.8 PER. The player we traded the nonshooter for is a noted nonshooter himself, and shooting .308 from 3pt land. Last year Reke himself shot .338 from 3pt land. Meanwhile we don't have a guard on the roster who is keeping his man in front of him, or who can physically match up to a power player. The best guard on our team is now a 5'9" guy who likes throwing the ball at the hoop a real real lot. We completely lack a second weapon in the starting lineup.

But yes. Obviously people missing Reke must be hung up on the idea he's going to average 30ppg.

I think the problem I originally had with it is that no one was ready to replace him when they let him go, which makes the team much worse in the short run. no one knew then what the future held for mclemore. We still don't. It was a leap of faith. A necessary one, but we got worse. We all convinced ourselves GV would make us better, some thinking the absence of tyreke would also make us better. But GV is not as good as even this somewhat disappointing version of tyreke in New Orleans. That's just a fact. He's a better pg than we've had in years, but his d is awful. If he's not dishing at a high level (with a high a/t ratio) that negative destroys what he brings. He has to be top notch offensively every night cause he brings nothing on the other end.

It's not that I think tyreke is a superstar, or ever will be, but he's way better than what we have now. Pelicans got Ryan Anderson back. That makes that team a lot scarier.

And this is where the dreaded t word rears it's head. Did they make the move knowing it made the team worse? I believe they did. And I think at the end of the day (preferably not a day in which the current team got blown out), I think I agree with it. Long term. The growing pains will hurt though. And if mclemore doesn't throw down a monster dunk soon...

 

[Glenn]

I think the problem I originally had with it is that no one was ready to replace him when they let him go, which makes the team much worse in the short run. no one knew then what the future held for mclemore. We still don't. It was a leap of faith. A necessary one, but we got worse. We all convinced ourselves GV would make us better, some thinking the absence of tyreke would also make us better. But GV is not as good as even this somewhat disappointing version of tyreke in New Orleans. That's just a fact. He's a better pg than we've had in years, but his d is awful. If he's not dishing at a high level (with a high a/t ratio) that negative destroys what he brings. He has to be top notch offensively every night cause he brings nothing on the other end.

It's not that I think tyreke is a superstar, or ever will be, but he's way better than what we have now. Pelicans got Ryan Anderson back. That makes that team a lot scarier.

And this is where the dreaded t word rears it's head. Did they make the move knowing it made the team worse? I believe they did. And I think at the end of the day (preferably not a day in which the current team got blown out), I think I agree with it. Long term. The growing pains will hurt though. And if mclemore doesn't throw down a monster dunk soon...

We're tanking. My convoluted theory is that Malone or someone in the FO figured that Tyreke's game did not fit with the Kings and that might be a valid argument. Let him go, get a mediocre return, and have a worse record than last year. We would be able to replace Tyreke's star power in this season's draft. If lucky we would then have three stars; Cuz, Ben, and draft pick. This is supported by the still mind boggling signing of Landry and the failure to resign Aldrich who, although not a star by any means, was a tall defensive presence that certainly had more of an impact than Hayes. Perhaps I am wrong but it would make me feel better about a few of the moves and non-moves.

 

[pshn80]

I always find that line of argument odd.

Our 2 (let's even say 3 with Jimmer) SGs are shooting .366, .383 and .375. We're getting a 9.4 PER out of the entire position combined. Last year we got a 17.8 PER. The player we traded the nonshooter for is a noted nonshooter himself, and shooting .308 from 3pt land. Last year Reke himself shot .338 from 3pt land. Meanwhile we don't have a guard on the roster who is keeping his man in front of him, or who can physically match up to a power player. The best guard on our team is now a 5'9" guy who likes throwing the ball at the hoop a real real lot. We completely lack a second weapon in the starting lineup.

But yes. Obviously people missing Reke must be hung up on the idea he's going to average 30ppg.

That's where I think we all, everyone, went wrong with Tyreke, he was never fated to be a second weapon. I think his role is not as a second weapon. Certainly a fourth and maybe a third. He is a good starter but miscast as a go-to guy. So, one of his worst breaks is carrying the salary level he is at now. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.

 

[jpsls]

I always find that line of argument odd.

Our 2 (let's even say 3 with Jimmer) SGs are shooting .366, .383 and .375. We're getting a 9.4 PER out of the entire position combined. Last year we got a 17.8 PER. The player we traded the nonshooter for is a noted nonshooter himself, and shooting .308 from 3pt land. Last year Reke himself shot .338 from 3pt land. Meanwhile we don't have a guard on the roster who is keeping his man in front of him, or who can physically match up to a power player. The best guard on our team is now a 5'9" guy who likes throwing the ball at the hoop a real real lot. We completely lack a second weapon in the starting lineup.

But yes. Obviously people missing Reke must be hung up on the idea he's going to average 30ppg.

Vasquez wasn't brought in for his shooting abilities.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

What I find odd, is that you take a player who is able to get into the paint and all the way to rim..with the best of the best,..yet people still want to harp on him not being a good outside shooter. Getting to the rim in the NBA at an elite level is much more valuable than outside shooting. There's lots of guys who can shoot, but only a few who can consistently penetrate a defense and get to the rack.

Surround him other players who are good outside shooters and you have a nice balanced mix

 

[Tetsujin]

What I find odd, is that you take a player who is able to get into the paint and all the way to rim..with the best of the best,..yet people still want to harp on him not being a good outside shooter. Getting to the rim in the NBA at an elite level is much more valuable than outside shooting. There's lots of guys who can shoot, but only a few who can consistently penetrate a defense and get to the rack.

Surround him other players who are good outside shooters and you have a nice balanced mix

I'm not harping on him for not being a shooter persay, just feel that if he were to add even a touch of respectability to his shot, it would prevent teams from simply packing the paint against him (and also make life a little easier for Cousins down low)

His conversion rates around the rim aren't exactly mindblowing this year either.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I'm not harping on him for not being a shooter persay, just feel that if he were to add even a touch of respectability to his shot, it would prevent teams from simply packing the paint against him (and also make life a little easier for Cousins down low)

His conversion rates around the rim aren't exactly mindblowing this year either.

To me, if a guy has a physical frame to compete in the NBA on both ends of the floor..and he has the skills to handle well and get into the paint consistently,...his value is great. More valuable than other skillsets that are 'easier' to find

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm not harping on him for not being a shooter persay, just feel that if he were to add even a touch of respectability to his shot, it would prevent teams from simply packing the paint against him (and also make life a little easier for Cousins down low)

You know what else prevents teams from simply packing the paint against him? Teammates that can hit open shots. Now, granted it was only one game, and it was Philadelphia, but Ryan Anderson's return seemed to do wonders for Evans' ability to get to the basket without being surrounded by two or three rim protectors.

Much as I loathe the idea of the "stretch 4," as a matter of principle, if you've got a power guard who likes to do his work inside, a big who can take the other team's shot blocker out of the paint is far from the worst thing one could have. The two of them +Anthony Morrow coming off the bench could, potentially, be a lethal triple threat.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not harping on him for not being a shooter persay, just feel that if he were to add even a touch of respectability to his shot, it would prevent teams from simply packing the paint against him (and also make life a little easier for Cousins down low)

His conversion rates around the rim aren't exactly mindblowing this year either.

What remains mindblowing to me is the colossal blind spot Reke seemed to inspire in Kings fans. Outside of LeBron, you could not have watched another player in the NBA get to the rim more often in the past 4 years, and still people throw out that line about how easy it is to stop, people packing the paint, oh noes, no floater etc. etc. Its simply amazing. Its as if in the months after Kevin left they had comforted themselves by telling each other what a poor shooter he is.

 

[Chubbs]

Much as I loathe the idea of the "stretch 4," as a matter of principle, if you've got a power guard who likes to do his work inside, a big who can take the other team's shot blocker out of the paint is far from the worst thing one could have. The two of them +Anthony Morrow coming off the bench could, potentially, be a lethal triple threat.[/quote]
Pelicans were a different team. Granted, it was the sixers. But the sixers have been strangely google thus far.

 

[Tetsujin]

What remains mindblowing to me is the colossal blind spot Reke seemed to inspire in Kings fans. Outside of LeBron, you could not have watched another player in the NBA get to the rim more often in the past 4 years, and still people throw out that line about how easy it is to stop, people packing the paint, oh noes, no floater etc. etc. Its simply amazing. Its as if in the months after Kevin left they had comforted themselves by telling each other what a poor shooter he is.

What's more mindblowing to me is how much we're still talking about Tyreke even though (a) he's been gone from our team for four months, (b) even with Tyreke, we'd still be terribly mediocre at best, (c) knowing our luck, he'd probably already be out with an ankle injury (which has already happened multiple times for the Pelicans) and (d) his addition to the Pelicans is pretty much causing the entire New Orleans fan base to call for their front office's heads (although that has at least quieted down now that Reke is no longer sporting a FG% below .350). Yes I agree with the sentiment that Tyreke would make this team better but that's kind of like saying Christmas is better when there's a Christmas tree. More talent would of course make an untalented team better but having Tyreke would ultimately not transform us into a playoff team.

Yes, having an elite driver like Reke would help us win a championship but that's kind of putting the chariot in front of the horses isn't it?

 

[Bricklayer]

What's more mindblowing to me is how much we're still talking about Tyreke even though (a) he's been gone from our team for four months,

Tyreke has been gone from the Kings for basically 8 games.

But its an 8 games where his replacements have been found very wanting, and where our rookie coach has been desperately searching around for somebody pretty much exactly like Tyreke to help out.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

One of the only reasons why I keep bringing up Isaiah Thomas as a potential starter is because we let Evans go. We have nothing going to the rim. No one getting to the FT line in the starting unit outside of Cousins, and no perimeter scoring threat. Without going through each time, I'm willing to bet we have the worst scoring in the league at PG/SG combined. Hell, I bet the same goes for 1,2,3, and 4. It's Cousins and nothing else, every night.

 

[jpsls]

Tyreke has been gone from the Kings for basically 8 games.

But its an 8 games where his replacements have been found very wanting, and where our rookie coach has been desperately searching around for somebody pretty much exactly like Tyreke to help out.

Exactly. It's only been 8 games. Can we give the coaching staff/FO more than two weeks before final judgement?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What's more mindblowing to me is how much we're still talking about Tyreke even though (a) he's been gone from our team for four months, (b) even with Tyreke, we'd still be terribly mediocre at best, (c) knowing our luck, he'd probably already be out with an ankle injury (which has already happened multiple times for the Pelicans)...

Quiet as it's kept, Evans has not missed a single regular season game for New Orleans, despite his injuries. You may have a different working definition of "multiple times."

 

[Glenn]

One of the only reasons why I keep bringing up Isaiah Thomas as a potential starter is because we let Evans go. We have nothing going to the rim. No one getting to the FT line in the starting unit outside of Cousins, and no perimeter scoring threat. Without going through each time, I'm willing to bet we have the worst scoring in the league at PG/SG combined. Hell, I bet the same goes for 1,2,3, and 4. It's Cousins and nothing else, every night.

I'm afraid this is what it is going to be all season. We need a bench. Insert my usual argument.

 

[jalfa]

I'm afraid this is what it is going to be all season. We need a bench. Insert my usual argument.

much more dramatically, we need some starters! as far as long-term solutions go, the Kings have, at best, two starters down. the SF position is still (still!) kind of a disaster, positive contributions from Luc notwithstanding, none of our current PFs inspire much confidence as far as the fit next to Cuz down the road is concerned, and I don't trust either Vasquez or Thomas to improve their defence to the degree that I'd be entirely comfortable with them starting. there's some decent bench contributors in there maybe, but that's probably it.