A general discussion on Isaiah Thomas

[Hadlowe]

I think a good part of the problem has nothing to do with GV or IT, but with the mediocrity surrounding them. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens tomorrow, when hopefully we'll see something new and exciting and not fishy on the court to start the game.

I see what you did there.

And I'm not ready to say he can't, or shouldn't, play with Cousins. I was in line with that thought process last season when Evans was around, because at that point it was just too much. We had too many players who needed the ball to be successful. This season? It's a little different. McLemore doesn't 'need' the ball. He's a catch and shoot player, so he'll get his looks on the break, on set plays, or as a kick out for a driver / Cousins double team. He's not going to make a play with the ball in his hands. Whoever we trot out at SF and PF also don't need the ball, because odds are that player isn't very good. That leaves Cousins and Thomas, two players who occupy opposite space on the court. I don't think it would be an issue, but it's hard to say without seeing it.

I think I've made this comment before, but IT and Cousins don't have naturally complementary games. Their best offense requires the same space on the court, the lane. Cousins makes his bones in the low post or on the face-up drive to the basket. He can hit the mid-range at an OK clip to the point that you have to respect it defensively, but is not a natural shooter like Bosh, Ryan Anderson, Kevin Love, or even Lamarcus Aldridge. You want him working the paint both for high percentage looks and because he is very good at corralling his own misses from short range.

IT has become a very good penetrating guard coming off high screens. This means that he is going toward the rim and his big man needs to be of the pick and pop variety, which isn't Cousins' natural game. IT has been shooting reasonably well from three point range, but look carefully at his makes. He shoots his best percentage on wide, WIDE open three pointers. The kind where nobody is closing out on him. He isn't a natural catch and shoot guy, which limits him on kickout shots from double-teams in the post.

Vasquez, on the other hand, is a mid-range pullup shooter. We are starting to see him run elbow pick and rolls with Cousins with Cousins rolling to the rim. That puts both players at their best position for making a shot, Cousins under the basket and Vasquez at free throw range. Cousins is also in good rebounding position without crowding the shooter.

I'm not saying that IT and Cousins can't work together, only that Vasquez SHOULD be a better offensive fit with Cousins.

Defensively, IT is the better defender, but I still see inconsistent effort on his part against second-tier point guards like Teague.

If I had to make a prediction, I don't think either player will be with the team next year. I think IT is going to get a decent mid-level contract somewhere and the Kings aren't going to want to commit much to keep him around. Much as I would love to get Parker or Wiggins, I think the Kings will end up picking up Smart or Exum at 6 or 7.

 

[Gary]

I have this sinking feeling that salmons will not be part of the lineup change.

And that defending rebounding pf we desperately need? Don't worry. Carl Landry will take care of that. All 6'7 of him.

Salmons will be part of the change. If there is two positions where I know the starters will be replaced they are SG/SF.

 

[macadocious]

Just because the people IT is passing to aren't making shots doesn't mean IT shouldn't still be passing to them.

I don't care how unselfish of a player you are, you work to get open off screens then repeatedly get ignored for a running one-hander in traffic (I don't care if it goes in) after awhile you stop working to get those opportunities.

 

[Cold]

Malone is doing a tasteful job of tanking. Salmon = tank commander

 

[Hadlowe]

Malone is doing a tasteful job of tanking. Salmon = tank commander

Play Salmons and TrOut together at the 2 and 3 and we will have a fish tank.

 

[Chubbs]

Salmons will be part of the change. If there is two positions where I know the starters will be replaced they are SG/SF.

I can't imagine how this would not be true, yet I still worry. There's been so much nonsense for so long it's hard to believe the right thing may actually be done.

 

[Chubbs]

Salmons will be part of the change. If there is two positions where I know the starters will be replaced they are SG/SF.

Ahem. Salmons stays.

To be clear, this is not my preference. Apparently the only person in the universe who wants him to start is Michael Malone.

 

[Hadlowe]

Ahem. Salmons stays.

To be clear, this is not my preference. Apparently the only person in the universe who wants him to start is Michael Malone.

Not happy about that at all. Outlaw, Luc should take the majority of the minutes with Ben taking spot minutes.

Any chance that moving Patterson to the bench is even remotely related to the Rockets moving Asik to the bench?

 

[Bricklayer]

Not happy about that at all. Outlaw, Luc should take the majority of the minutes with Ben taking spot minutes.

Any chance that moving Patterson to the bench is even remotely related to the Rockets moving Asik to the bench?

More likely to Patterson being the worst starting PF in the league this year. But yes please on the idea.

 

[nickmcclure]

2013-14 per 36:
Nate Robinson 16.5FGA 5.8ast 3.1TO
Isaiah Thomas 16.1FGA 5.9ast 3.3TO

That's a for better or for worse thing. Nonetheless, I agree we have bigger problems atm.

That's what I'm saying. He had another good game tonight off the bench, no one should complain about his efforts

 

[Glenn]

I see what you did there.



I think I've made this comment before, but IT and Cousins don't have naturally complementary games. Their best offense requires the same space on the court, the lane. Cousins makes his bones in the low post or on the face-up drive to the basket. He can hit the mid-range at an OK clip to the point that you have to respect it defensively, but is not a natural shooter like Bosh, Ryan Anderson, Kevin Love, or even Lamarcus Aldridge. You want him working the paint both for high percentage looks and because he is very good at corralling his own misses from short range.

IT has become a very good penetrating guard coming off high screens. This means that he is going toward the rim and his big man needs to be of the pick and pop variety, which isn't Cousins' natural game. IT has been shooting reasonably well from three point range, but look carefully at his makes. He shoots his best percentage on wide, WIDE open three pointers. The kind where nobody is closing out on him. He isn't a natural catch and shoot guy, which limits him on kickout shots from double-teams in the post.

Vasquez, on the other hand, is a mid-range pullup shooter. We are starting to see him run elbow pick and rolls with Cousins with Cousins rolling to the rim. That puts both players at their best position for making a shot, Cousins under the basket and Vasquez at free throw range. Cousins is also in good rebounding position without crowding the shooter.

I'm not saying that IT and Cousins can't work together, only that Vasquez SHOULD be a better offensive fit with Cousins.

Defensively, IT is the better defender, but I still see inconsistent effort on his part against second-tier point guards like Teague.

If I had to make a prediction, I don't think either player will be with the team next year. I think IT is going to get a decent mid-level contract somewhere and the Kings aren't going to want to commit much to keep him around. Much as I would love to get Parker or Wiggins, I think the Kings will end up picking up Smart or Exum at 6 or 7.

I liked you post until the last paragraph. Our team has problems but I don't think changing our pgs is a priority. Not at all. You can only fix so many problems and there are larger problems at different positions.

 

[bajaden]

I see what you did there.



I think I've made this comment before, but IT and Cousins don't have naturally complementary games. Their best offense requires the same space on the court, the lane. Cousins makes his bones in the low post or on the face-up drive to the basket. He can hit the mid-range at an OK clip to the point that you have to respect it defensively, but is not a natural shooter like Bosh, Ryan Anderson, Kevin Love, or even Lamarcus Aldridge. You want him working the paint both for high percentage looks and because he is very good at corralling his own misses from short range.

IT has become a very good penetrating guard coming off high screens. This means that he is going toward the rim and his big man needs to be of the pick and pop variety, which isn't Cousins' natural game. IT has been shooting reasonably well from three point range, but look carefully at his makes. He shoots his best percentage on wide, WIDE open three pointers. The kind where nobody is closing out on him. He isn't a natural catch and shoot guy, which limits him on kickout shots from double-teams in the post.

Vasquez, on the other hand, is a mid-range pullup shooter. We are starting to see him run elbow pick and rolls with Cousins with Cousins rolling to the rim. That puts both players at their best position for making a shot, Cousins under the basket and Vasquez at free throw range. Cousins is also in good rebounding position without crowding the shooter.

I'm not saying that IT and Cousins can't work together, only that Vasquez SHOULD be a better offensive fit with Cousins.

Defensively, IT is the better defender, but I still see inconsistent effort on his part against second-tier point guards like Teague.

If I had to make a prediction, I don't think either player will be with the team next year. I think IT is going to get a decent mid-level contract somewhere and the Kings aren't going to want to commit much to keep him around. Much as I would love to get Parker or Wiggins, I think the Kings will end up picking up Smart or Exum at 6 or 7.

I really doubt the Kings go after another PG in the draft, and if they were, it most likely be Exum, who literally destroyed Smart in the U 19 games. I guess I just don't see the buzz over Smart. He's not really a pure PG. He's not a great athlete, but does have very good lateral quickness. His outside shooting was just horrible last year, as was his overall shooting percentage. He has OK handles, but couldn't hold a candle to Tyreke Evans. The one thing he's terrific at is defense, and being a floor leader. Being a floor leader in the NBA doesn't last long if you can't shoot, and your not that great of a creator.

If we have a chance at either Randle, Wiggins, Parker, or Exum, and we take Smart, I'll slash my wrists to put myself out of my misery. That would be a Cleveland move.

 

[Hadlowe]

I really doubt the Kings go after another PG in the draft, and if they were, it most likely be Exum, who literally destroyed Smart in the U 19 games. I guess I just don't see the buzz over Smart. He's not really a pure PG. He's not a great athlete, but does have very good lateral quickness. His outside shooting was just horrible last year, as was his overall shooting percentage. He has OK handles, but couldn't hold a candle to Tyreke Evans. The one thing he's terrific at is defense, and being a floor leader. Being a floor leader in the NBA doesn't last long if you can't shoot, and your not that great of a creator.

If we have a chance at either Randle, Wiggins, Parker, or Exum, and we take Smart, I'll slash my wrists to put myself out of my misery. That would be a Cleveland move.

I don't disagree with you on anything that you said. I assume we are going to be bad, but not bad enough to get a top 3 pick. If so, I'm expecting Parker, Wiggins, Randle, and Embiid to be gone. After those 4, I expect Exum to go at #5, depending on who has the pick, but I could see Smart or Aaron Gordon moving up in the draft depending on how their seasons go and how the NCAA tournament plays out. If the Kings pick at 6 or 7, we end up with the last of the talented picks. Would you rather pick up a large pg like Smart who is a known entity, or roll the dice on slightly undersized 3s like Glenn Robinson III or James Young.

 

[Cold]

Glen Robinson III and James Young are role players. Smart even with his suspect shooting oozes star potential. U have to watch him multiple games to see it. His defense is pretty spectacular at times when he turns it on, his handle and slashing have improved at an astounding rate (he played PG for the first time less than 2 years ago), he reminds me a lot of rookie Harden when he drives the lane. He didn't do well in the U19 but he has improved a ton since then.

He needs to improve his jumper, but his excellent court vision and killer instinct more than make up for it. Everytime I see him play, even when he doesn't shoot well, he just looks like the best player on the floor. He has that IT factor and he plays like an alpha male.

I've only seen Exum play a couple of times. I can't comment much on him other than the guy is lightning quick. Like Monta Ellis quick.

 

[twslam07]

I don't disagree with you on anything that you said. I assume we are going to be bad, but not bad enough to get a top 3 pick. If so, I'm expecting Parker, Wiggins, Randle, and Embiid to be gone. After those 4, I expect Exum to go at #5, depending on who has the pick, but I could see Smart or Aaron Gordon moving up in the draft depending on how their seasons go and how the NCAA tournament plays out. If the Kings pick at 6 or 7, we end up with the last of the talented picks. Would you rather pick up a large pg like Smart who is a known entity, or roll the dice on slightly undersized 3s like Glenn Robinson III or James Young.

I think Cold summed it up well. I see Robinson and Young as roleplayers while I see Smart as a go-to option who has star potential. If the choice is between Smart, Robinson, and Young, I'm taking Smart and not even thinking twice about it.

 

[bajaden]

I don't disagree with you on anything that you said. I assume we are going to be bad, but not bad enough to get a top 3 pick. If so, I'm expecting Parker, Wiggins, Randle, and Embiid to be gone. After those 4, I expect Exum to go at #5, depending on who has the pick, but I could see Smart or Aaron Gordon moving up in the draft depending on how their seasons go and how the NCAA tournament plays out. If the Kings pick at 6 or 7, we end up with the last of the talented picks. Would you rather pick up a large pg like Smart who is a known entity, or roll the dice on slightly undersized 3s like Glenn Robinson III or James Young.

At this point, I'd defer to waiting until march to make that assessment. Some will rise, and some will fall. I personally have nothing against Smart. And I did see him play many times last season. If he can improve his jumpshot, then he moves into another dimension. But until that happens, I'll refrain from moving him up on my personal board. His game is a lot like Tyreke's, except that Smart is more inclined to pass the ball. But his handles, while good enough for the guard position, aren't even in the same ballpark with Tyreke.

I remember one game last season, early in the season, where Smart looked like superman. I thought I was watching a shorter version of Lebron. Unfortunately he came back the next game and looked like Clark Kent. Now to be fair to him, he does have good form on his shot. So its possible its fixable. Having said that, I just don't think we need to use another high draft pick on a PG, especially a PG that's really more of a combo guard. Right now if I have to choose between Aaron Gordon and Smart, I'm taking Gordon. There are others that may rise to the top as well, players like Noah Vonleh of Indiana. I can't wait to see Chris Walker play once he's cleared. Lets see what kind of season Rodney Hood has. Johnny O'Bryant is off to a great start at LSU. There's Sam Dekker at Wisconsin, and the unheralded, Bobby Portis from Arkansas. Obviously, all these guys aren't goning to be in top ten, but here will be some surprises, and I'm not against reaching a bit if we end up picking around 11 or 12. I think the most likely scenario is that were either choosing in the top 4, or were choosing below 10. If we end up top 4, then all this is a moot point.