A general discussion on Isaiah Thomas

[The_Jamal]

Kingster your a bright guy, but don't let yourself be blinded by whats fun to watch. Yeah, its fun to watch this little 5'9" player drive into the basket and somehow throw up a shot among'st the giants and have it go in. He's a very talented player, and his height has nothing to do with that aspect. However, and I speak from personal preference, I like a PG that scores his points within the flow of the game. I watched a game with Chris Paul the other night, and at the end of the game, I was surprised to find out he had 25 pts and 11 assists. I didn't remember him scoring that much, or assisting that much. But he did! Because he did it within the flow of the game.

Now you can argue that IT has to make an immediate impact because he comes off the bench. That might fly if he had played differently when he started. But he didn't. In theory, a PG should make everyone around him better. And I think its a cop out to say that he shouldn't because the players around him are incapable. If you keep everyone involved, their focus and energy will stay consistent. But if you battle on defense, grab a rebound and pass it to your PG, who then flies down the court and stops and pops for a three, misses, and now your running back the other way, you start to wonder if your sole purpose is help you PG score. I've been there and done that. Self motivation only lasts so long in the face of selfishness. At least let me touch the damm ball before you shoot it.

Its either a team sport or its not. A team is five guys working together to beat the other team. Not four guys working together to help fill the stat line of one player. I love Thomas! He's supremely talented. But he gets in his own way. The decision he needs to make, is does he want to be remembered as a player like Chris Paul, or a player like Nate Robinson, who by the way is someone he emulates. His destiny is staring him in the face. The main question is, how does he visualize himself. That might decide his future in the league.

Again, I'm not sure this opinion with what has actually happened this season. One of the new stats at NBA.com is keeping track of passing statistics. One that caught my eye was Assist opportunities that a player can get throughout a game. Meaning, every shot a teammate takes would be an assist if he makes the shot. Our PG's currently rank 16th and 17th in the NBA. (GV 16, IT 17th) No other team has two guys within the top 25 of this stat category.

To me, this says our PG's both have done a pretty good job at getting shots for other shooters.

 

[Kingster]

I'

Kingster your a bright guy, but don't let yourself be blinded by whats fun to watch. Yeah, its fun to watch this little 5'9" player drive into the basket and somehow throw up a shot among'st the giants and have it go in. He's a very talented player, and his height has nothing to do with that aspect. However, and I speak from personal preference, I like a PG that scores his points within the flow of the game. I watched a game with Chris Paul the other night, and at the end of the game, I was surprised to find out he had 25 pts and 11 assists. I didn't remember him scoring that much, or assisting that much. But he did! Because he did it within the flow of the game.

Now you can argue that IT has to make an immediate impact because he comes off the bench. That might fly if he had played differently when he started. But he didn't. In theory, a PG should make everyone around him better. And I think its a cop out to say that he shouldn't because the players around him are incapable. If you keep everyone involved, their focus and energy will stay consistent. But if you battle on defense, grab a rebound and pass it to your PG, who then flies down the court and stops and pops for a three, misses, and now your running back the other way, you start to wonder if your sole purpose is help you PG score. I've been there and done that. Self motivation only lasts so long in the face of selfishness. At least let me touch the damm ball before you shoot it.

Its either a team sport or its not. A team is five guys working together to beat the other team. Not four guys working together to help fill the stat line of one player. I love Thomas! He's supremely talented. But he gets in his own way. The decision he needs to make, is does he want to be remembered as a player like Chris Paul, or a player like Nate Robinson, who by the way is someoned he emulates. His destiny is staring him in the face. The main question is, how does he visualize himself. That might decide his future in the league.

This is such BS. I think what IT needs to emulate from Paul is surrounding himself with some good basketball players instead of the detritus of this team. I think in the last game IT started shooting 6 out 7 or something like that. Why in hell would you want the guy to pass the ball to the non-shooters on this team? And if it was so "selfish" of him to take those shots, then Malone should just yank the guy after taking 3 shots and making them. Shame on Malone; he's allowing the culture to be destroyed by a guy who is putting the ball in the basket. I guess Malone should give IT a no-consecutive shot rule. Whatever you do, don't make two or three in a row. Heaven forbid. But we don't see that do we? That's because Malone has a brain. He realizes that without IT this team would significantly worse than they already are. He's willing to put up with the occasional overly aggressive IT play because overall the pluses outweigh the minuses by a large margin. This selfishness crap is overdone. He makes five in a row and he comes down the floor and takes a heat check from the 3 point line. How many times have we seen that over the years from all kind of players? A TON. So he misses the 3 pointer. Does he come back down the floor and take another? No, he sets up the offense. Does he need to pick and choose his time to shoot or pass better? Yes. But any point guard has the fine line they have to walk of shooting too little or not shooting enough. Chris Paul has the same issue. At the beginning of the season his coach told him he wasn't aggressive enough. Shame on Paul: he didn't shoot enough! That's why he started the year shooting like a madman. So was he selfish? Shame on Paul again: he shot too much!

 

[bajaden]

Again, I'm not sure this opinion with what has actually happened this season. One of the new stats at NBA.com is keeping track of passing statistics. One that caught my eye was Assist opportunities that a player can get throughout a game. Meaning, every shot a teammate takes would be an assist if he makes the shot. Our PG's currently rank 16th and 17th in the NBA. (GV 16, IT 17th) No other team has two guys within the top 25 of this stat category.

To me, this says our PG's both have done a pretty good job at getting shots for other shooters.

I'll be the first to admit that you can't get assists if your teammates can't make a shot. We agree on that. My comments on what my eye's see, and not about stats. There are periods of the game where IT plays the way I would want him to play. And there are periods where he has blinders on and is oblivious to his teammates. He has just one thing in mind, and that's to score. In the game previous to the last one, he had McLemore open 4 times on the wing, and Patterson open on the right wing three times, and never once looked in their direction. Now you can say that it didn't matter because he scored in those situations. But if your a teammate, and you work to get open, and get ignored, at some point you stop working as hard. Now if that's what you want from your PG, then fine. You have no complaints. I just think that IT can be better than he is, and that's what I want. Just a matter of opinion.

As far as stats go. When I watch college players play, I have no idea of what their stats are at games end. But I have a very good idea of whether they played a good game or not. I don't need stats to tell me that. Stats are for people that don't watch the games. Its possible to score 2 pts in a game, and still have a very good game. But you'll never know that just by looking at stats. They're a useful tool when presenting a power point presentation. I'm sure agents either love them or hate them. In he end, if you think the way IT has been playing is great, then we'll never come to an agreement on that. We just have different idea's of what an offense should look like. The question is, how many wins do we have, playing the way we are. And I'm not laying all this on IT. This discussion just happens to be about him. To be clear, if IT has an open shot, I want him to take it. But I don't want him driving into the teeth of the defense and throwing up wild shots with the hope they go in while ignoring open teammates.

 

[The_Jamal]

I'll be the first to admit that you can't get assists if your teammates can't make a shot. We agree on that. My comments on what my eye's see, and not about stats. There are periods of the game where IT plays the way I would want him to play. And there are periods where he has blinders on and is oblivious to his teammates. He has just one thing in mind, and that's to score. In the game previous to the last one, he had McLemore open 4 times on the wing, and Patterson open on the right wing three times, and never once looked in their direction. Now you can say that it didn't matter because he scored in those situations. But if your a teammate, and you work to get open, and get ignored, at some point you stop working as hard. Now if that's what you want from your PG, then fine. You have no complaints. I just think that IT can be better than he is, and that's what I want. Just a matter of opinion.

As far as stats go. When I watch college players play, I have no idea of what their stats are at games end. But I have a very good idea of whether they played a good game or not. I don't need stats to tell me that. Stats are for people that don't watch the games. Its possible to score 2 pts in a game, and still have a very good game. But you'll never know that just by looking at stats. They're a useful tool when presenting a power point presentation. I'm sure agents either love them or hate them. In he end, if you think the way IT has been playing is great, then we'll never come to an agreement on that. We just have different idea's of what an offense should look like. The question is, how many wins do we have, playing the way we are. And I'm not laying all this on IT. This discussion just happens to be about him. To be clear, if IT has an open shot, I want him to take it. But I don't want him driving into the teeth of the defense and throwing up wild shots with the hope they go in while ignoring open teammates.

I don't think we disagree, just I don't think what your eyes are telling you tell the whole story. That's why I love stats; because they fill those holes in the story that your eyes miss. IT misses teammates and gets the blinders on at times. Absolutely. But so do all great scorers, and I would classify him as a scorer more than a PG playmaker.

However, the numbes I highlighted that IT is 17th in the NBA in potential assist opportunities. Is that good enough for us? for him? That's for others much smarter than me to decide. But he's also ahead of guys like Calderon, Dragic, Westbrook, Rose, Nash, etc. Would we be happy with them?

 

[bajaden]

I'

This is such BS. I think what IT needs to emulate from Paul is surrounding himself with some good basketball players instead of the detritus of this team. I think in the last game IT started shooting 6 out 7 or something like that. Why in hell would you want the guy to pass the ball to the non-shooters on this team? And if it was so "selfish" of him to take those shots, then Malone should just yank the guy after taking 3 shots and making them. Shame on Malone; he's allowing the culture to be destroyed by a guy who is putting the ball in the basket. I guess Malone should give IT a no-consecutive shot rule. Whatever you do, don't make two or three in a row. Heaven forbid. But we don't see that do we? That's because Malone has a brain. He realizes that without IT this team would significantly worse than they already are. He's willing to put up with the occasional overly aggressive IT play because overall the pluses outweigh the minuses by a large margin. This selfishness crap is overdone. He makes five in a row and he comes down the floor and takes a heat check from the 3 point line. How many times have we seen that over the years from all kind of players? A TON. So he misses the 3 pointer. Does he come back down the floor and take another? No, he sets up the offense. Does he need to pick and choose his time to shoot or pass better? Yes. But any point guard has the fine line they have to walk of shooting too little or not shooting enough. Chris Paul has the same issue. At the beginning of the season his coach told him he wasn't aggressive enough. Shame on Paul: he didn't shoot enough! That's why he started the year shooting like a madman. So was he selfish? Shame on Paul again: he shot too much!

Well thank you. I'm glad to hear you think my opinion is pure BS. Hmmm, I don't think I suggested the same about your opinion. Oh well, I just love mutual respect. So here's my opinion. I don't think its IT's right to decide that everyone else on the team stinks and that he's the only one that should be scoring. In his last 4 games he's shot 40% overall, and went 1 for 12 from the three point line. So if I were him, I would tone it back a bit. While I agree that in general, his teammates have struggled with their shots, some, like McLemore hasn't, and he has been constantly ignored by IT. If you love the way IT is playing, then so be it. Enjoy! I just happen to think that IT can be a better player. Perhaps even an all star, if he changes his mental approach to the game. I have nothing against him, just the way he plays at times.

 

[bajaden]

I don't think we disagree, just I don't think what your eyes are telling you tell the whole story. That's why I love stats; because they fill those holes in the story that your eyes miss. IT misses teammates and gets the blinders on at times. Absolutely. But so do all great scorers, and I would classify him as a scorer more than a PG playmaker.

However, the numbes I highlighted that IT is 17th in the NBA in potential assist opportunities. Is that good enough for us? for him? That's for others much smarter than me to decide. But he's also ahead of guys like Calderon, Dragic, Westbrook, Rose, Nash, etc. Would we be happy with them?

First off, I'm glad that their finally taking possible assists that were missed into account. I do think that's a truer reflection of a PG's ability. And I think IT has a lot of ability in that area. Why at times he either has on blinders, or maybe because of his height, doesn't see open players is a question I can't answer. And perhaps I'm nit picking to some extent. Its just that every once in a while, he has one of those perfect games. And I realize its ridiculous of me to think he can be perfect every night, but that's the IT I love. In the last game, where he didn't sniff the floor much in the fourth quarter, Vasquez and Jimmer constantly fed the ball to Cousins, and with very good results. Something that IT doesn't do at times when he's on the floor with Cuz. Why, I don't know. But its obvious that its the game plan to run the ball through Cuz, similar to how they used to run the ball through Webb or Vlade.

Now I suppose that if your (not meaning you) a big IT fan, and don't care much for Cousins, then your not happy with that game plan. Personally I don't care about who gets the shots as long as they add up to wins, and or player development for the future. To be honest, I hate these kind of discussions which seem to put you on one side of the issue or the other. There is middle ground where admiration for the player remains, despite pointing out what appear to be flaws. In the end, its all opinion...

 

[Kingster]

I'll be the first to admit that you can't get assists if your teammates can't make a shot. We agree on that. My comments on what my eye's see, and not about stats. There are periods of the game where IT plays the way I would want him to play. And there are periods where he has blinders on and is oblivious to his teammates. He has just one thing in mind, and that's to score. In the game previous to the last one, he had McLemore open 4 times on the wing, and Patterson open on the right wing three times, and never once looked in their direction. Now you can say that it didn't matter because he scored in those situations. But if your a teammate, and you work to get open, and get ignored, at some point you stop working as hard. Now if that's what you want from your PG, then fine. You have no complaints. I just think that IT can be better than he is, and that's what I want. Just a matter of opinion.

As far as stats go. When I watch college players play, I have no idea of what their stats are at games end. But I have a very good idea of whether they played a good game or not. I don't need stats to tell me that. Stats are for people that don't watch the games. Its possible to score 2 pts in a game, and still have a very good game. But you'll never know that just by looking at stats. They're a useful tool when presenting a power point presentation. I'm sure agents either love them or hate them. In he end, if you think the way IT has been playing is great, then we'll never come to an agreement on that. We just have different idea's of what an offense should look like. The question is, how many wins do we have, playing the way we are. And I'm not laying all this on IT. This discussion just happens to be about him. To be clear, if IT has an open shot, I want him to take it. But I don't want him driving into the teeth of the defense and throwing up wild shots with the hope they go in while ignoring open teammates.

Is it news that IT needs to improve his game? Is it news that EVERYBODY on this team needs to improve their games? I don't think we disagree on that. As far as McLemore and Patterson, well if I'm a point guard and Patterson, who couldn't hit a brick wall with a two by four, is wide open with a 20 footer, but I, who am shooting far better than he have a semi-covered 12 foot floater in the lane, what am I to do? Seriously, that is the choice that IT is confronted with many times. That's not an automatic default of-course-you-pass-to-Patterson decision; that's a dilemma. Now substitute Salmons for Patterson. How many times do you want him to get the ball open at the 3 point line? Do you go to him once, twice, three times, four in a row after he throws up brick after brick? What is the magic cut off? Tell me, I'd really like to know the answer to that question. As far as McLemore is concerned, IT has gotten him the ball on several occasions. Does he need to get it to him more? Yes. But he has to get it to McLemore in the right places on the floor, places in which McLemore does not have to create with the ball in order to get his shot. That doesn't come less than 10 games into the season. It takes some time to develop that rapport and that trust. Look, being a pg on this team is very similar to be the head coach of this team: there are a lot of Hobbesian choices that both are left with. I don't envy either one of them. I certainly am not going to hammer on Malone when he makes decisions on playing time over Worse and Worser, and I'm not going to be doing it with IT either.

 

[The_Jamal]

First off, I'm glad that their finally taking possible assists that were missed into account. I do think that's a truer reflection of a PG's ability. And I think IT has a lot of ability in that area. Why at times he either has on blinders, or maybe because of his height, doesn't see open players is a question I can't answer. And perhaps I'm nit picking to some extent. Its just that every once in a while, he has one of those perfect games. And I realize its ridiculous of me to think he can be perfect every night, but that's the IT I love. In the last game, where he didn't sniff the floor much in the fourth quarter, Vasquez and Jimmer constantly fed the ball to Cousins, and with very good results. Something that IT doesn't do at times when he's on the floor with Cuz. Why, I don't know. But its obvious that its the game plan to run the ball through Cuz, similar to how they used to run the ball through Webb or Vlade.

Now I suppose that if your (not meaning you) a big IT fan, and don't care much for Cousins, then your not happy with that game plan. Personally I don't care about who gets the shots as long as they add up to wins, and or player development for the future. To be honest, I hate these kind of discussions which seem to put you on one side of the issue or the other. There is middle ground where admiration for the player remains, despite pointing out what appear to be flaws. In the end, its all opinion...

Cuz has gotten plenty of ball, whether playing with IT or not. He's got one of the highest FGA/game in the NBA, he's got the top USG% in the NBA, he's top 10 in PPG. We're feeding him the ball and he's producing. As it should be.

IT's not perfect, and no one is claiming him to be. But he's producing at a high level right now and is one of the only bright-spots on the team. There's certainly aspects he needs to improve upon, but he's far from a major issue with regards to Cousins development or the team starting 1-5

 

[Kingsfan23]

Same arguments about IT are the same made about BoJax 12-13 years ago, tunnel vision, not seeing the floor etc. Fact is the kid has heart and can change the game, something that can't be taught on the floor, in the locker room or in the community. The lack of distribution is only highlighted by the fact that he plays with subpar players that need to be spoonfed. In a couple of years when the team is right he will still be the best back up pg in the league. Lock him up

 

[nickmcclure]

Here's the cliffnotes:

Another thread where we diss our second most effective scorer after he had yet another good game.
Why does this board constantly talk crap about the players who are doing their jobs?

These past few losses had nothing to do with IT, without him scoring a quarter of the team's points
we'd be blown out every night.

This isn't a debate about how he's hurting team "chemistry" cause quite simply we have none. Also, IT
isn't starting, he's coming off the bench. His scoring/possession is about as efficient as one could expect
from a 6th man and to top it off

HE'S AVERAGING 4.5 ASTS/GAME

Aside from understandably spotty defense (he is 5'8'' afterall) he's doing pretty damn well

why there isn't a thread about PPAT or Salmons is beyond me.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Here's my question,

For the Vasquez supporters, what does he have to do to lose the starting PG job? If he hasn't lost it yet, what is it going to take? Honestly.

Because here is where I am at. If you want to tell me it's too soon, I will accept that. I disagree with you, but I respect patience. I think most rational Vasquez fans can at least admit that he isn't playing well. Is that fair? He is performing below expectation. His defense has been terrible, like, bottom-of-the-league-at-his-position bad. We have not seen this offense improve in any way due to his play. In fact, units he is responsible for have consistently put us in a double digit deficit. And no, I'm not blaming it all on him, but offense is his game. That is why he's on the court.

Are you waiting to see if he will get better? If he continues to play at this level for a longer period of time (thus, bigger sample size) is that enough to make the switch? Or are you blindly starting Vasquez regardless of how he plays?

 

[Cold]

IT despite his impressive raw stats, is an average backup PG in this league. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Bricklayer]

Here's the cliffnotes:

Another thread where we diss our second most effective scorer after he had yet another good game.
Why does this board constantly talk poopoo about the players who are doing their jobs?

These past few losses had nothing to do with IT, without him scoring a quarter of the team's points
we'd be blown out every night.

This isn't a debate about how he's hurting team "chemistry" cause quite simply we have none. Also, IT
isn't starting, he's coming off the bench. His scoring/possession is about as efficient as one could expect
from a 6th man and to top it off

HE'S AVERAGING 4.5 ASTS/GAME

Aside from understandably spotty defense (he is 5'8'' afterall) he's doing pretty damn well

why there isn't a thread about PPAT or Salmons is beyond me.

2013-14 per 36:
Nate Robinson 16.5FGA 5.8ast 3.1TO
Isaiah Thomas 16.1FGA 5.9ast 3.3TO

That's a for better or for worse thing. Nonetheless, I agree we have bigger problems atm.

 

[The_Jamal]

2013-14 per 36:
Nate Robinson 16.5FGA 5.8ast 3.1TO
Isaiah Thomas 16.1FGA 5.9ast 3.3TO

That's a for better or for worse thing. Nonetheless, I agree we have bigger problems atm.

Hmm. Leaving out a few numbers me thinks

 

[Glenn]

Here's my question,

For the Vasquez supporters, what does he have to do to lose the starting PG job? If he hasn't lost it yet, what is it going to take? Honestly.

Because here is where I am at. If you want to tell me it's too soon, I will accept that. I disagree with you, but I respect patience. I think most rational Vasquez fans can at least admit that he isn't playing well. Is that fair? He is performing below expectation. His defense has been terrible, like, bottom-of-the-league-at-his-position bad. We have not seen this offense improve in any way due to his play. In fact, units he is responsible for have consistently put us in a double digit deficit. And no, I'm not blaming it all on him, but offense is his game. That is why he's on the court.

Are you waiting to see if he will get better? If he continues to play at this level for a longer period of time (thus, bigger sample size) is that enough to make the switch? Or are you blindly starting Vasquez regardless of how he plays?

You don't necessarily want to have your best scoring pg and obvious spark plug off the bench as a starter. We have a guy who can score as a starter and soon Ben will be a starter. IT is a great 6th man. I am perplexed that this isn't satisfactory. This isn't about who is best but what is the best way of using the players we have.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Here's my question,

For the Vasquez supporters, what does he have to do to lose the starting PG job? If he hasn't lost it yet, what is it going to take? Honestly.

I think they want to see him at 100% with a starting group that they're "happier" with? If after some time with those changes, he doesn't appear to be our best option as a starter, then move from there?

 

[Bricklayer]

Hmm. Leaving out a few numbers me thinks

Picking the important ones for offensive mentality/approach to the game.

 

[Tetsujin]

You don't necessarily want to have your best scoring pg and obvious spark plug off the bench as a starter. We have a guy who can score as a starter and soon Ben will be a starter. IT is a great 6th man. I am perplexed that this isn't satisfactory. This isn't about who is best but what is the best way of using the players we have.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment. Playing IT off the bench, in addition to all the sparkplug factors mentioned throughout this thread, is also key in that it helps maximize possessions for Demarcus when he is on the court as the two are not on the court at the same time as often as they would be were Thomas a starter. IT's tendency to get tunnel vision anytime he touches the ball isn't exactly as conducive to a system designed to ride on Big Cuz's shoulders. That said, we need a scoring punch when Boogie is out of the game and that is where Isaiah is so important (so long as he at least makes an effort to involve some of his teammates and not slack on the defensive end).

 

[Bricklayer]

On Vasquez:

1) new player, don't know him yet. of course keeps playing like this don't want to know him.

2) looked notably better last year, raising question if this is just bad start/ankle related or if the curtain has been pulled back

3) IT is a me player. I would see the Pizza Guy shot out of a cannon over the Malacca Straits before I'd let his meness start interfering with Cousins again. he's a disaster when paired with his betters. So Grevis it is simply because of lack of options.

4) the friendlier side of #3: IT is and has always been a born 6th man/change of pace guard. We have 2 guys born for their positions, both are thriving in them. You don't mess them up. Keep them in their comfort zones, scramble to find competent bodies to fill in the other slots.

 

[Hadlowe]

On Vasquez:

1) new player, don't know him yet. of course keeps playing like this don't want to know him.

2) looked notably better last year, raising question if this is just bad start/ankle related or if the curtain has been pulled back

3) IT is a me player. I would see the Pizza Guy shot out of a cannon over the Malacca Straits before I'd let his meness start interfering with Cousins again. he's a disaster when paired with his betters. So Grevis it is simply because of lack of options.

4) the friendlier side of #3: IT is and has always been a born 6th man/change of pace guard. We have 2 guys born for their positions, both are thriving in them. You don't mess them up. Keep them in their comfort zones, scramble to find competent bodies to fill in the other slots.

I will only add that IT is the only guy on the team with any chance of being able to do two things. 1) bring us back a valuable piece in a midseason trade, and 2) allow us to get rid of one of the albatross contracts on the books in the process.

The Kings will not be a playoff squad this year. Just not enough talent. IT and Vasquez are both up for contracts and you have to look long and hard at whether either one of them will get you closer to being a playoff team long-term. Much as I like IT as an entertaining player, he is going to command a mid-level contract at minimum without being starting "point guard of the future" material. I think McCallum has a better chance of being that guy than IT, and he is far from a lock. If you can package Hayes and IT and bring back a defensive 4 or a good two-way swingman, you can actually look at putting together a playoff team next year built around Cousins, McLemore, draft pick, and trade acquisition.

 

[VF21]

Here's the cliffnotes:

Another thread where we diss our second most effective scorer after he had yet another good game.
Why does this board constantly talk poopoo about the players who are doing their jobs?

These past few losses had nothing to do with IT, without him scoring a quarter of the team's points
we'd be blown out every night.

This isn't a debate about how he's hurting team "chemistry" cause quite simply we have none. Also, IT
isn't starting, he's coming off the bench. His scoring/possession is about as efficient as one could expect
from a 6th man and to top it off

HE'S AVERAGING 4.5 ASTS/GAME

Aside from understandably spotty defense (he is 5'8'' afterall) he's doing pretty damn well

why there isn't a thread about PPAT or Salmons is beyond me.

Why would anyone want to waste time talking about Salmons? I think everyone here AGREES about him.

And I'm sorry if you don't like it or agree with it, but I'm going to continue to point out what I think is a major flaw in IT's game because it's something he can correct. He's capable of being even better than he is right now, and I want him to be the best he possibly can be.

 

[bajaden]

Here's my question,

For the Vasquez supporters, what does he have to do to lose the starting PG job? If he hasn't lost it yet, what is it going to take? Honestly.

Because here is where I am at. If you want to tell me it's too soon, I will accept that. I disagree with you, but I respect patience. I think most rational Vasquez fans can at least admit that he isn't playing well. Is that fair? He is performing below expectation. His defense has been terrible, like, bottom-of-the-league-at-his-position bad. We have not seen this offense improve in any way due to his play. In fact, units he is responsible for have consistently put us in a double digit deficit. And no, I'm not blaming it all on him, but offense is his game. That is why he's on the court.

Are you waiting to see if he will get better? If he continues to play at this level for a longer period of time (thus, bigger sample size) is that enough to make the switch? Or are you blindly starting Vasquez regardless of how he plays?

Well I think considering that we knew he had some rust on him, then yeah, you give him more time. He's an entirely different type of PG than IT, and for the last two games, he's shot better than 50% from the floor overall, and averaged around 5.5 assists a game. If you can make a case for IT that his teammates can't make an assisted basket, you can make the same case for Vasquez. The problem with the starting unit isn't Vasquez, its Thornton, Salmons and Patterson on the offensive side of the ball. If those guys were hitting their shots, none of this would be an issue. If I had to pick one person that I want out of the starting lineup, it would be Thornton. He's not hitting his shots, and his body language is terrible.

 

[funkykingston]

The Kings have lacked several things over the last decade or so both major and minor. One of those seemingly minor things is a PG or wing that could consistently make good post entry passes. I'd have to go all the way back to Doug Christie for the last King that took some pride in that little but crucial aspect of the game. Vasquez is no Doug Christie, but he does feed the post better than anyone else to wear a Kings uniform in recent years. And being able to get the ball to DeMarcus where he is in a good position to operate is huge moving forward, whether it is a post entry pass, a pick and roll, pick and pop or drive and dish.

The FO has hung their collective hats on Cousins being a cornerstone and McLemore being a core support piece. Fair or unfair, every other player (barring the Kings acquiring another all-star level talent) will be judged on how they support those two players.

And that's not to slight IT's contributions. His role is to support DMC by being instant offense off the bench and to take some of the scoring load of Cousins' shoulders. And I think he's done a great job of that so far. He is a change of pace guard and his style is ideally suited for that sixth man role. For that matter I think Thornton plays better with that pace/style than the one Malone is trying to develop with the starting unit and so I actually think a move to the bench will lead to an uptick in MT's numbers even in fewer minutes.

Here's the interesting thing to me. I don't like Thomas as a starting PG but I like him a lot as a sixth man. I have zero interest in Vasquez as a sixth man and I think he's only the starter for now because his style of play fits better with Malone's objectives. Barring a major uptick on his productivity I don't see him being back next year and in fact I could see it being more likely that IT is resigned as the sixth man and Vasquez is replaced as the starting PG.

 

[bajaden]

Hmm. Leaving out a few numbers me thinks

Picky, picky, picky!

 

[bajaden]

The Kings have lacked several things over the last decade or so both major and minor. One of those seemingly minor things is a PG or wing that could consistently make good post entry passes. I'd have to go all the way back to Doug Christie for the last King that took some pride in that little but crucial aspect of the game. Vasquez is no Doug Christie, but he does feed the post better than anyone else to wear a Kings uniform in recent years. And being able to get the ball to DeMarcus where he is in a good position to operate is huge moving forward, whether it is a post entry pass, a pick and roll, pick and pop or drive and dish.

The FO has hung their collective hats on Cousins being a cornerstone and McLemore being a core support piece. Fair or unfair, every other player (barring the Kings acquiring another all-star level talent) will be judged on how they support those two players.

And that's not to slight IT's contributions. His role is to support DMC by being instant offense off the bench and to take some of the scoring load of Cousins' shoulders. And I think he's done a great job of that so far. He is a change of pace guard and his style is ideally suited for that sixth man role. For that matter I think Thornton plays better with that pace/style than the one Malone is trying to develop with the starting unit and so I actually think a move to the bench will lead to an uptick in MT's numbers even in fewer minutes.

Here's the interesting thing to me. I don't like Thomas as a starting PG but I like him a lot as a sixth man. I have zero interest in Vasquez as a sixth man and I think he's only the starter for now because his style of play fits better with Malone's objectives. Barring a major uptick on his productivity I don't see him being back next year and in fact I could see it being more likely that IT is resigned as the sixth man and Vasquez is replaced as the starting PG.

I agree with this post! I also doubt that Vasquez will be back next season. Maybe, if he and Cousins suddenly become a great tandem. I also agree that I like Thornton in the second unit with IT. Thornton likes to get his own shot, and so does IT, so the two of them can score independent of one another. That doesn't work for McLemore, at least for now. He's better getting fed in the right place, and for that reason I like him better in the starting unit with Cuz and Vasquez. Improvement on defense, however slight, and he accomplishes everything that Thornton would accomplish, plus more energy. Of course I don't know what changes Malone has made, but my hope is McLemore for Thornton.

I'd like to add that I've been impressed with McLemore's improvement in the BBIQ dept. He see's the floor well and has made some timely passes. He doesn't yet have the skill level needed to take advantage of his BBIQ, but it will come.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I feel quite lonely over here on Pizza Guy island. That's ok. We'll see.

In my most honest, harshest opinion - Greivis Vasquez has been pretty bad for ... 70% of his NBA minutes as a King? 80%?

Regardless of how Vasquez improves offensively this season, I want no part of him long term. Most assume his offense will pick up, which at least has a chance of happening. His defense, though? that isn't going to get any better. We haven't kept an opposing point guard under 20 points once so far this season, and that's not all on GV - but we've lost that matchup in incredible fashion every game this season. It hasn't even been close.

I'm hoping for improvement, but I'm not expecting much. With Isaiah Thomas - I know who he is and what he brings, a lot of which I don't like, but I just think he's a better player, in any role, on any team. Just better. I don't want him starting PG long term for us, either, but I think he is the better option based on what we've seen so far. Maybe things change.

And I'm not ready to say he can't, or shouldn't, play with Cousins. I was in line with that thought process last season when Evans was around, because at that point it was just too much. We had too many players who needed the ball to be successful. This season? It's a little different. McLemore doesn't 'need' the ball. He's a catch and shoot player, so he'll get his looks on the break, on set plays, or as a kick out for a driver / Cousins double team. He's not going to make a play with the ball in his hands. Whoever we trot out at SF and PF also don't need the ball, because odds are that player isn't very good. That leaves Cousins and Thomas, two players who occupy opposite space on the court. I don't think it would be an issue, but it's hard to say without seeing it.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

You don't necessarily want to have your best scoring pg and obvious spark plug off the bench as a starter. We have a guy who can score as a starter and soon Ben will be a starter. IT is a great 6th man. I am perplexed that this isn't satisfactory. This isn't about who is best but what is the best way of using the players we have.

It isn't satisfactory to me because we are 1-5, and as much as people want to say it isn't about W's and L's, we should be better than this. This is going backwards. This is dangerous. It's toxic. As a team, we've looked terrible. It's bad for right now, and it's bad for the future. Teams with less talent than us have competed much harder, played much better, and won more games. Boston, Phoenix, and LA Lakers come to mind.

All Vasquez has to do is play better and I'll stop talking about it I wanted him as the starter before the season started like most here, but the team has been a disaster so far. His play on both ends, specifically on defense, is a big reason why.

 

[VF21]

I think a good part of the problem has nothing to do with GV or IT, but with the mediocrity surrounding them. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens tomorrow, when hopefully we'll see something new and exciting and not fishy on the court to start the game.

 

[Tetsujin]

If all else fails, there's always Sugar Ray sitting on the end of the bench looking for some minutes.

 

[Chubbs]

I think a good part of the problem has nothing to do with GV or IT, but with the mediocrity surrounding them. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens tomorrow, when hopefully we'll see something new and exciting and not fishy on the court to start the game.

I have this sinking feeling that salmons will not be part of the lineup change.

And that defending rebounding pf we desperately need? Don't worry. Carl Landry will take care of that. All 6'7 of him.