Starting SG spot will be Thornton or Jimmer?!?

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#61
Would it be a fair statement to say that Jimmer hasn't done anything because he hasn't been given a real opportunity, in a real system and a defined role?
I'm not sure that's it. I think it's more the case that Jimmer has demonstrated that he has some severe limitations (especially ball handling, defense) that make giving him big minutes a risky proposition. The concept of what sort of player Jimmer is is very quickly coalescing into that of an undersized SG with a sweet jumper but not much else. That's a role player in this league, and not a big-minutes role player at that. Now, if he can improve on defense enough to allow a coach work up a defensive scheme where he swaps with a larger PG on D or to hold his own at SG in small-ball lineups, then he earns extra minutes. If he can take a big leap in his ball handling and improve a bit on passing and running an offense, he can start to get PG minutes. But right now I think there are two SGs better and more deserving of minutes on this roster than Jimmer, so he's not likely to see the floor much. Sure, he'll be in a real system now, and he'll have a defined role now, but that role is beginning to look like "benchwarmer".
 
#62
I really don't see how Jimmer could improve his defense in any meaningful way. he's far too slow to keep anybody in front of him, too short to close out and challenge shots effectively, not strong enough to battle anybody in the post, he's not a rebounder and barely an obstacle when he tries to rotate over and stop penetration. for all the bad defense by the team's guards these last few years, nobody has approached Jimmer's level of inaptitude and he just doesn't have the physical tools to do anything about it.
 
#63
I'm not sure that's it. I think it's more the case that Jimmer has demonstrated that he has some severe limitations (especially ball handling, defense) that make giving him big minutes a risky proposition. The concept of what sort of player Jimmer is is very quickly coalescing into that of an undersized SG with a sweet jumper but not much else. That's a role player in this league, and not a big-minutes role player at that. Now, if he can improve on defense enough to allow a coach work up a defensive scheme where he swaps with a larger PG on D or to hold his own at SG in small-ball lineups, then he earns extra minutes. If he can take a big leap in his ball handling and improve a bit on passing and running an offense, he can start to get PG minutes. But right now I think there are two SGs better and more deserving of minutes on this roster than Jimmer, so he's not likely to see the floor much. Sure, he'll be in a real system now, and he'll have a defined role now, but that role is beginning to look like "benchwarmer".
Heh, fair enough. Like pre-season, I think we will continue to notice that he has improved, so we will see how it all plays out.
 
#64
Like the majority of posters on this topic I also agree that MT should be the starter at the 2 spot and should be the number one option for the first 20 games or so, keeping in mind that Thornton has a way to go to solidify his defense and offense stride. Unlike some, I would like to keep Fredette on the squad because of his long ball threat. Like the Spurs with Matt Bonner and the Clippers with Byron Mullins and others whose only contributions are to hang out beyond the three line and wait for opportunities to get a pass and launch a three. I'd hate to see Fredette go to another team come in for a few minutes and kill us with one or two timely three-point shots. Yes it would be nice to trade for this guy or that guy but we have what we have. Let's see how it all plays out.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#67
No, they're not. Utah is not going to make the playoffs, but they're going to be competitive. In fact, I'm going to go on record and say that they could finish as high as third in their division; they're definitely going to finish ahead of Portland, and you can quote me on that.
 
#69
All I know, is we went 5-2 in the Preseason with Jimmer being our best SG overall.

Not saying the trend will continue, but at this point, Jimmer should start.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#70
No, they're not. Utah is not going to make the playoffs, but they're going to be competitive. In fact, I'm going to go on record and say that they could finish as high as third in their division; they're definitely going to finish ahead of Portland, and you can quote me on that.
If Portland breaks down to injury yeah but come on Batum, Lillard, Wes, Alridge and Lopez can hang and be better than nearly any starting 5 and now they got bench scoring in Mo Williams, Wright and a couple others no way does Utah even have half the talent Portland got.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#72
If Portland breaks down to injury yeah but come on Batum, Lillard, Wes, Alridge and Lopez can hang and be better than nearly any starting 5 and now they got bench scoring in Mo Williams, Wright and a couple others no way does Utah even have half the talent Portland got.
Lillard, Aldridge and Batum all played 73+ games last season, and Matthews played 69, and the Trailblazers won 33 games. You can't possibly believe that Robin F. Lopez is that big an upgrade over J.J. Hickson? Williams, as old as he is, is certainly an upgrade to their bench, but the guys he's playing behind are all big minute players, so I don't know how much playing time you actually expect him to get.

Portland has a better backcourt. Utah has a better frontcourt, even with all of the turnover, and a much better coach. I'll take Utah.
 
#73
I'm not sure that's it. I think it's more the case that Jimmer has demonstrated that he has some severe limitations (especially ball handling, defense) that make giving him big minutes a risky proposition. The concept of what sort of player Jimmer is is very quickly coalescing into that of an undersized SG with a sweet jumper but not much else. That's a role player in this league, and not a big-minutes role player at that. Now, if he can improve on defense enough to allow a coach work up a defensive scheme where he swaps with a larger PG on D or to hold his own at SG in small-ball lineups, then he earns extra minutes. If he can take a big leap in his ball handling and improve a bit on passing and running an offense, he can start to get PG minutes. But right now I think there are two SGs better and more deserving of minutes on this roster than Jimmer, so he's not likely to see the floor much. Sure, he'll be in a real system now, and he'll have a defined role now, but that role is beginning to look like "benchwarmer".

Uh....Jimmer has played pretty good d. The expectation that Jimmer should just come in and shut down a player like Steph Curry or Chris Paul is kind of ridiculous. Those guys score on everybody in the league and their teams run plays to help them get easy looks and look to get them the ball when things break down. Jimmer has played good team defense and for the most part has been where he is suppose to be and is much more athletic than he gets credit for. He has lost his man a few times and been beaten off the dribble a few times this pre-season but do you know who else has had those things happen to them? EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA.

He may not get to play much (kind of seems like that is going to be the case) until he leaves Sacramento but it isn't because he is such a huge defensive liability that he can't be on the court. He is much, much better than he was his rookie.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#74
Uh....Jimmer has played pretty good d. The expectation that Jimmer should just come in and shut down a player like Steph Curry or Chris Paul is kind of ridiculous. Those guys score on everybody in the league and their teams run plays to help them get easy looks and look to get them the ball when things break down. Jimmer has played good team defense and for the most part has been where he is suppose to be and is much more athletic than he gets credit for. He has lost his man a few times and been beaten off the dribble a few times this pre-season but do you know who else has had those things happen to them? EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA.

He may not get to play much (kind of seems like that is going to be the case) until he leaves Sacramento but it isn't because he is such a huge defensive liability that he can't be on the court. He is much, much better than he was his rookie.
I'm much better at handicraft stuff than I was as a six year old. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be knitting anyone a sweater anytime soon.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#75
I really don't see how Jimmer could improve his defense in any meaningful way. he's far too slow to keep anybody in front of him, too short to close out and challenge shots effectively, not strong enough to battle anybody in the post, he's not a rebounder and barely an obstacle when he tries to rotate over and stop penetration. for all the bad defense by the team's guards these last few years, nobody has approached Jimmer's level of inaptitude and he just doesn't have the physical tools to do anything about it.
I think that if your were to watch film of Jimmer his first year in the league, and then watch film of him in this current preseason, you would have to be blind not to see improvement.. Players that put in the time, get better. Fans on the other hand, tend to live with past imprints, and not see that improvement. To say that he's weak, is just pure nonsense. He's always been a gym rat, and a workout nut. Give credit where its due. You don't think he's rotation material, that's fine. But you don't have to throw him in the trash pile just to make your point. I heard these same things said about J.J. Reddick. Never underestimate an over achiever.

And by the way, I'm not saying that Jimmer should start, or even be in the rotation. All I'm saying is give him his due.
 
C

Cold

Guest
#76
Sad to say but Jimmer has a long way to go before he can play major minutes in the NBA, regardless of what team he's on. I rather Jimmer be gone to a new team to end this draft mistake. Great guy with a great stroke and I wish him the best.
 
#77
I think that if your were to watch film of Jimmer his first year in the league, and then watch film of him in this current preseason, you would have to be blind not to see improvement.. Players that put in the time, get better. Fans on the other hand, tend to live with past imprints, and not see that improvement. To say that he's weak, is just pure nonsense. He's always been a gym rat, and a workout nut. Give credit where its due. You don't think he's rotation material, that's fine. But you don't have to throw him in the trash pile just to make your point. I heard these same things said about J.J. Reddick. Never underestimate an over achiever.

And by the way, I'm not saying that Jimmer should start, or even be in the rotation. All I'm saying is give him his due.
the weak argument applies mostly to his potentially defending guards that actually like to post up, your Millers, Billupses, Westbrooks and what have you. this only gets exacerbated, if you put him at the 2, where the players get stronger and taller. admittedly, it's probably not much of an issue, as only few guards are left that have a game that predicated on punishing their opposition in the post. still, the idea of Jimmer battling a guy like Tyreke or, god forbid, Kobe in the post doesn't the point of that is rather that there's actually no type of player he could comfortably defend. spot up guys are a problem because he has trouble fighting through screens and is then not fast or long enough to effectively challenge a shot. he's an easy target for screens, because he's got a relatively wide body that doesn't allow him to get around them as easily as other guys and he's to slow to cheat around them, because that makes the ways he needs to go even longer. just now, I've rewatched footage of a February game against Orlando, where Jimmer subs in early and gets absolutely lit up by E'Twaun Moore, when Jimmer can't do anything about him draining 3 three-pointers in his face spotting up off screens, rather easily gives up position on the defensive glass (Tyreke saved that one) and then can only foul Afflalo on a switch. penetrators operating heavily with pick-and-rolls are even worse, especially considering that's where the league has a ton of offensive talent.

as for the preseason. in the Phoenix game, the Suns never really made a concerted effort to go at Jimmer. Dragic could pretty much get to any point on the floor he wanted out of pick-and-rolls, but was mostly looking to pass it off. Brown, Goodwin and Christmas managed to score over him in transition a couple of times and got to the rim fairly easily (getting huge amounts of separation between themselves and Jimmer in the process), they just couldn't get anything done there. in the Portland game, he did manage to keep Mo Williams in front of him once and Williams also missed a shot with Jimmer closing out. however, Williams also shot a three over him and set up a couple of open shots for his team. Williams was stopped by help defense some, so maybe Jimmer improved in funnelling his man into the help. the Golden State game just wasn't pretty. Jimmer got confused on screens and gave up quite a few open looks to Curry and Klay Thompson. this, of course, was a team-wide phenomenon in that game, but, particularly in the third, Jimmer did stick out somewhat and was pulled accordingly.

all this is not to dump on Jimmer, I do believe that he tries as hard as he can, it's just that his body and natural athletic ability limit his defensive ability and there's nothing he can do about it.

edit: one thing where there might be a misunderstanding between us, it's not that I don't think that Jimmer can improve his defense or that he hasn't so far. it's that I think his athletic limitations won't allow him to improve it enough to be playable in a rotation that could compete for a playoff spot, let alone a championship.
 
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#78
Lillard, Aldridge and Batum all played 73+ games last season, and Matthews played 69, and the Trailblazers won 33 games. You can't possibly believe that Robin F. Lopez is that big an upgrade over J.J. Hickson? Williams, as old as he is, is certainly an upgrade to their bench, but the guys he's playing behind are all big minute players, so I don't know how much playing time you actually expect him to get.

Portland has a better backcourt. Utah has a better frontcourt, even with all of the turnover, and a much better coach. I'll take Utah.
the injury dropoff andremiller07 is talking about doesn't necessarily only pertain to games missed. Batum, for instance, had a nagging shoulder injury that lead to a substantial dropoff in his production. also, every game missed by one of their starting five hurt them a lot more than it would another team. it's really hard to understate how bad their bench was. they had to rely on guys like Luke Babbitt, Nolan Smith or Jared Jeffries to give them minutes, all three of which are now out of the league for good reason. Wright and Williams, while not world-beaters, are at least competent and there's a solid chance that at least one guy out of their bunch of sophomores (Freeland, Claver, Robinson) makes somewhat of a jump. at the same time, Lillard is due for a significant step forward, if those rumblings of shootouts with Kyrie Irving at the Team USA training camp are to be believed, the guy could be an absolute monster next season.

Utah, otoh, looks sketchy to me. as much as I like Gordon Hayward, I don't believe in him as a number one option and I also don't think that Favors or Kanter can take over that role. Favors looks to unpolished offensively and both he and Kanter might be getting in foul trouble more often than would be good for the team. this might become an even bigger problem just looking at the bigs they have on their bench, not one out of Biedrins, Evans or Gobert inspires much hope for solid production this year (I do like Gobert as a prospect though). their wing rotation is a problem as well. I would not want Richard Jefferson starting for my team (the guy looked done coming off the bench last year), nobody knows how Brandon Rush will look like after a year off and I frankly don't even know who Ian Clark is. then there's the PG spot where you have to rely on Tinsley, JL3 and Jerel McNeal to hold down the fort until you can hand the reigns to a rookie point guard.

the Jazz may have finished the season with ten wins more than PDX (who've ended their season on a 0-10 run), but they've taken a huge step backward, as far as overall talent for *this season* is concerned, whereas the Trailblazers have drastically improved areas of need. moreover, they can still expect significant development from their own players and are kind of under a mandate to be better, just to keep LMA happy. I think Portland should contend for a playoff spot again and should actually make it this year and Utah might very well be in for less than 30 wins this season.
 
#79
Utah, otoh, looks sketchy to me. as much as I like Gordon Hayward, I don't believe in him as a number one option and I also don't think that Favors or Kanter can take over that role. Favors looks to unpolished offensively and both he and Kanter might be getting in foul trouble more often than would be good for the team. this might become an even bigger problem just looking at the bigs they have on their bench, not one out of Biedrins, Evans or Gobert inspires much hope for solid production this year (I do like Gobert as a prospect though). their wing rotation is a problem as well. I would not want Richard Jefferson starting for my team (the guy looked done coming off the bench last year), nobody knows how Brandon Rush will look like after a year off and I frankly don't even know who Ian Clark is. then there's the PG spot where you have to rely on Tinsley, JL3 and Jerel McNeal to hold down the fort until you can hand the reigns to a rookie point guard.
And I will add that Burke has looked really bad in both summer league and his brief preseason stint, not to mention recovering from an injury to his shooting hand.
 
#81
bajaden has always been the best poster here. The least biased, most factual and best perspective. I come here for his posts.
Baja is indeed a good poster, but the only reason you're saying that is because he's not at all harsh on Jimmer. I agree with Baja a lot, but I do think he has a soft spot for Jimmer as he watched him so much at BYU.

Basically, your entire view of the world is based on their relationship with Jimmer, which is a bit weird.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#84
Utah, otoh, looks sketchy to me. as much as I like Gordon Hayward, I don't believe in him as a number one option and I also don't think that Favors or Kanter can take over that role. Favors looks to unpolished offensively and both he and Kanter might be getting in foul trouble more often than would be good for the team. this might become an even bigger problem just looking at the bigs they have on their bench, not one out of Biedrins, Evans or Gobert inspires much hope for solid production this year (I do like Gobert as a prospect though). their wing rotation is a problem as well. I would not want Richard Jefferson starting for my team (the guy looked done coming off the bench last year), nobody knows how Brandon Rush will look like after a year off and I frankly don't even know who Ian Clark is. then there's the PG spot where you have to rely on Tinsley, JL3 and Jerel McNeal to hold down the fort until you can hand the reigns to a rookie point guard.

the Jazz may have finished the season with ten wins more than PDX (who've ended their season on a 0-10 run), but they've taken a huge step backward, as far as overall talent for *this season* is concerned, whereas the Trailblazers have drastically improved areas of need. moreover, they can still expect significant development from their own players and are kind of under a mandate to be better, just to keep LMA happy. I think Portland should contend for a playoff spot again and should actually make it this year and Utah might very well be in for less than 30 wins this season.
You know, lost in all of the Cousins vs. Favors debate last season, a lot of Kings Fans like to overlook the fact that Favors is actually very good. Like, potential Top 10 post in the league good. LaMarcus F. Aldridge, on the other hand, may be the most overrated post in the league: he's a less talented Dirk Nowitzki.

Tyrone Corbin is a good coach. Not a particularly great coach, but a good coach, and he coaches a system that's structured enough that he's not going to get killed by a rookie point guard. Stotts, on the other hand, is a poor coach. He's lost everywhere he's been and, most places, he's lost badly. Whatever you think their W-L record is going to be, you might as well subtract ten wins, just from Stotts' coaching. They're not going to be any good.
 
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#86
You know, lost in all of the Cousins vs. Favors debate last season, a lot of Kings Fans like to overlook the fact that Favors is actually very good. Like, potential Top 10 post in the league good. LaMarcus F. Aldridge, on the other hand, may be the most overrated post in the league: he's a less talented Dirk Nowitzki.

Tyrone Corbin is a good coach. Not a particularly great coach, but a good coach, and he coaches a system that's structured enough that he's not going to get killed by a rookie point guard. Stotts, on the other hand, is a poor coach. He's lost everywhere he's been and, most places, he's lost badly. Whatever you think they're W-L record is going to be, you might as well, subtract ten wins, just from his coaching. They're not going to be any good.
Yep. Heck, give Favors starters mintues last year and he might have made the all-star team with 14-10-2.6 BPG P/36 averages. He's a case where it P/36 actually applies: He has a large sample size of producing huge numbers in his 22 MPG averages. So it's very likely he can duplicate it at starter minutes. As far as the comparison between he and Cousins... well, they are two totally different players. Favors is a defensive minded who relies on athleticism. Cousins is offensive minded who relies on footwork, size, and strength to get the job done.

All in all, I wouldn't be surprised to see both guys be in the conversation for best big in the game in a few years.
 
#90
I have to give credit here to Jimmer this preseason. Before this camp I actually thought Jimmer was going to be out of the league in couple years time due to physical/game limitations. It's obvious though that the kid does have heart, will bust azz to get better, and he has now refined his game to the level that he can IMHO be a deep rotation guy for somebody for the next 7-8 years. That is actually a good thing for him that I now believe he can make a career out of this