[Game] Warriors @ Kings - 10/23/13 - pre-season
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The takes to the rim are strictly straight line. When he had one tonight, Cousins set a pick for him, and he curled straight down the open lane in a direct path to the hoop. And he can do that. Obviously you hope any pro baller can do that. The problems come if he has to change direction, or worse has to just create by himself with an opponent in front of him. He kept leaving the ball behind on that one all night for fumbles, and really I was mentioning selfish play/bad coaching for that very reason. He can't dribble. We know this. So why do you throw him the ball and say make something happen as if he's Reke? He should only be getting the ball when he has to take one dribble tops and put it up. And when he finally did in this one, things started to turn a bit for him. Excellent shooter but he's like a smaller Peja. the offense as we ran it was running actively against both his talents and Cousins' talents most of the night.
Did I miss isolation plays for Ben, because I don't remember a time he was expected to create. In fact, he spent most of the night hoping someone would give him the ball.
I look at it this way. For having what some are saying is a crippling deficiency in his game, he sure is making the most of the rest of his ability. He's practically earned a starting spot on an NBA team. Can it really be that bad when he plays so well?
I look at it this way. For having what some are saying is a crippling deficiency in his game, he sure is making the most of the rest of his ability. He's practically earned a starting spot on an NBA team. Can it really be that bad when he plays so well?
Klay Thompson was terrible off the dribble to as a rookie, he has improved in that aspect going into his third year. Ben will get better at that too, will he ever be like Tyreke, performing Euro steps, crossovers etc.? No. But will Tyreke ever be as fluid in motion with a silky smoothe stroke straight up into the air with all that elevation? No. Once Ben acclimates to the speed of the game, he will be able to read the defense coming off a screen, give a pump fake, either take the foul from the incoming defender and go to the line, 2 dribble around him for the pull up 2, dish of to the open man if a helper comes, and yes if the defense gives him a fairly straight line to the rim, he will be more than capable of going up strong and make some highlight plays in the process. Everything with time, but there is no reason to start now.
Really only one where he came off the screen but the defender hedged well, broken play, ben tries a little cross over, beats his man but loses control and ends up passing it to Mark Jackson. What he should have done was pull up for that short jumper at the foul line, but i liked what Malone did, kind of laughed it of and said "its ok, its ok". Love a coach that supports his guys.
From Twitter:
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 7m
Biggest stat tonight? A 7,500 donation for Sign Lady. In other news, Kings win!
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 7m
Biggest stat tonight? A 7,500 donation for Sign Lady. In other news, Kings win!
Happened at least 3 times in the first half, once more in the second.
And that's the thing about people right now with Mac. I think he may start, and I think I might even start him just because I trust him more than what I am seeing out of the other guys right now. But tonight people are greatgaming a guard who scored 9pts on 40% shooting with 1 ast and 3 TOs. Yeah he might start, but its not because he's killing it out there, and the handle is a major limitation and reason he's not. If we are going to start him we have to be smart and keep him playing within a little box around his comfort zone. He can really shoot, so damnit, have him curl around a screen and catch it in position to shoot. Don't throw it to him and plan to have him dribble around the screen, because that's not happening. Have him spot up and wait for a kick from Cousins. Not being able to dribble is a huge limitation for a guard, its actually probably THE defining guard skill. But a good coach and teammates can coach around it, use his strengths while not putting him in a position to fail. Tonight his limitations were on full display for 3/4, and then we got smarter in how we used him, and suddenly he woke up late. I hope somebody was paying attention. Seems pretty obvious to me.
And that's the thing about people right now with Mac. I think he may start, and I think I might even start him just because I trust him more than what I am seeing out of the other guys right now. But tonight people are greatgaming a guard who scored 9pts on 40% shooting with 1 ast and 3 TOs. Yeah he might start, but its not because he's killing it out there, and the handle is a major limitation and reason he's not. If we are going to start him we have to be smart and keep him playing within a little box around his comfort zone. He can really shoot, so damnit, have him curl around a screen and catch it in position to shoot. Don't throw it to him and plan to have him dribble around the screen, because that's not happening. Have him spot up and wait for a kick from Cousins. Not being able to dribble is a huge limitation for a guard, its actually probably THE defining guard skill. But a good coach and teammates can coach around it, use his strengths while not putting him in a position to fail. Tonight his limitations were on full display for 3/4, and then we got smarter in how we used him, and suddenly he woke up late. I hope somebody was paying attention. Seems pretty obvious to me.
I didn't see it as a coaching philosophy issue in regards to Ben. I saw it as IT is trying to win a starting pg position so he's not passing the ball to anyone unless he absolutely has to. By the time he passed the ball, his teammates had been watching him dribble around for 15 seconds and no more time for a play to be run. Ben got hot late when other players like Salmon's started pushing the ball up the court and the passes happened earlier in the shot clock.
You know, I may criticize IT at times but I don't think he's hogging the ball because he wants to win the starting PG position. I think he keeps the ball because he truly believes he can get the job done. He's fought against the odds all his life and I think this is just how he view things. He hates to fail and he hates to give up, even if it's just one possession of the ball. If you recall, we saw that at times from Bobby J, too...
A couple of thoughts/observations regarding the game...
A. Warriors love to shoot the long distance stuff...
B. We need to defend the fast break better...
C. We allowed way too many layups and baskets down low...
D. Our offense can be worked on quite a bit, but overall not too bad...
E. Greivis Vasquez is going to be a really good point guard for us...
F. Glad to see the old barn again. Crowd was very good for the most part...
G. I was actually pretty disappointed in the half time presentation for Sign Lady. I expected a lot more, to be honest with you...I thought it would be longer than 4-5 minutes (if it even was that long to begin with). I woulda loved to see a video tribute, i woulda loved to hear some speeches...
A. Warriors love to shoot the long distance stuff...
B. We need to defend the fast break better...
C. We allowed way too many layups and baskets down low...
D. Our offense can be worked on quite a bit, but overall not too bad...
E. Greivis Vasquez is going to be a really good point guard for us...
F. Glad to see the old barn again. Crowd was very good for the most part...
G. I was actually pretty disappointed in the half time presentation for Sign Lady. I expected a lot more, to be honest with you...I thought it would be longer than 4-5 minutes (if it even was that long to begin with). I woulda loved to see a video tribute, i woulda loved to hear some speeches...
im really loving IT coming off the bench and i would like to continue seeing that...GV looks a little rusty, but i still think he should start...and it may end up where GV starts and finishes some nights - then IT finishes some nights....bt i think GV should start so we can try to establish Cuz early....if bmac doesnt start after this i dunno what else he has to do?? GV Bmac whoever Ppat Cuz
He hates to pass the ball. When he checked in at the end of the 1st he went 4 straight possessions without passing the ball to anyone. I'm not talking about setting up someone for a shot. I'm talking about passing the ball. Like even just passing the ball and getting it back. Nope, he just went straight to shooting. Like I've said many times - as a scorer he's pretty darn good. As a PG running an offense he's arguably one of the worst in the league. I like to focus on strengths instead of negatives, and if I just drop the expectation that IT will play like a PG I'm actually very very impressed by his play. But... having such a ball-dominant scorer means MT has to go.
It was an exciting game but really not something we should be very proud of in terms of game play. Golden State had a terrible offensive lineup in the 4th for a good half of the quarter, and we got some very very lucky plays go our way. Curry and Thompson came back in cold and were consistently short on their shots. As Brick has mentioned, our offensive priorities were weird all-game long. Cousins continued to somehwat struggle against length. You know what I actually find funny? This new emphasis on calling moving screens could actually work to our advantage, because we don't set good screens at all so there's rarely ever any contact. I liked the player movement on our end but the difference between our ball movement and that of the Warriors was stark. Jimmer lacks the quickness to get himself open for shots given the poor quality of our screens, and as a result the defense managed to close on him and not allow him to get a shot up. I still want to see him in the regular rotation but that may be hard with so many other guards we have to play.
What I did love was the energy in the building (heard through my computer speakers). Felt really great to have such an atmosphere in a preseason game.
It was an exciting game but really not something we should be very proud of in terms of game play. Golden State had a terrible offensive lineup in the 4th for a good half of the quarter, and we got some very very lucky plays go our way. Curry and Thompson came back in cold and were consistently short on their shots. As Brick has mentioned, our offensive priorities were weird all-game long. Cousins continued to somehwat struggle against length. You know what I actually find funny? This new emphasis on calling moving screens could actually work to our advantage, because we don't set good screens at all so there's rarely ever any contact. I liked the player movement on our end but the difference between our ball movement and that of the Warriors was stark. Jimmer lacks the quickness to get himself open for shots given the poor quality of our screens, and as a result the defense managed to close on him and not allow him to get a shot up. I still want to see him in the regular rotation but that may be hard with so many other guards we have to play.
What I did love was the energy in the building (heard through my computer speakers). Felt really great to have such an atmosphere in a preseason game.
Pretty ugly game with no one really standing out on our side. A few of our guys did well towards the end but also had a lot of silly mistakes. Encouraging thing was that we showed good spirtit and didn't give up even when we were down big.
Best part of the night was the atmosphere. Fans were awesome, almost like a play-off game.
Best part of the night was the atmosphere. Fans were awesome, almost like a play-off game.
My thoughts exactly. I'm not that ... "excited" about us showing good spirit and not giving up because we did that multiple times last season. It's not something we haven't seen before ... in fact: Tight game at half time, get destroyed in the 3rd, fight back in the 4th was about our most common game after close game, coach dumb takes all starters out, fall behind by 20 by half time, fight back in the 2nd half but never get over the hump.
the fact that IT is both very driven and very erratic, on top of being undersized, is precisely why i would prefer that vasquez be named the starter. there's a reason the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby way back when; they wanted stability at the PG position. and there's a reason that bobby jackson came off the bench, even though he usually logged big time minutes, particularly in the fourth quarter. players who "bring energy," who are often labeled as "sparkplugs," tend to be destined for sixth man roles. they also tend to earn heavy minutes despite their status as bench players. in fact, IT is as close to "that guy" as the kings have gotten since b-jax. quite honestly, he's perfect for the role. it's why most of us have clamored for the trade of marcus thornton, because, if packaged with other pieces, MT could potentially bring back a player of value at a position of need, while also functioning as addition-by-subtraction in the kings' crowded backcourt...
Three times in the game, he crossed over to his left on the man guarding him and created an open shot for himself. He only hit one of them, but the point is, he got himself open. He's only 20 yrs old, and his ballhandling has improved from summer league. He's a quick learner, and Tyreke is gone, get over it. Not a fair comparison. You want to criticize McLemore's ball handling every game, then I'll start pointing out that Tyreke couldn't shoot the ball for a lick his first three years. We all know his handles need work, and his defense needs experience. But his potential is terrific, and that's the point.
I get what your saying, but the idea that a player can't be effective because he has average handles just doesn't fly with me. I know you understand that, but that's the impression I'm getting. Kevin Martin couldn't create diddly squat for himself. We used to run double and sometimes triple screens to get him open. Reggie Miller never created for himself. I could go through history and name player after player that was a good to great scorer within a team system. Even Peja, who actually handled the ball fairly well, seldom tried to take his man off the dribble.
Where you and I agree is that our offense just didn't look like an offense. Can anyone tell me how many times the ball got passed to McLemore in the 4th quarter? How many shot attempts did Cousins have in the entire game, and who prey tell, took the most shots in the game? I believe McLemore only took 5 shots total if memory serves. I've said this a million times, but when one player decides to dominate the ball, and take all the shots, everybody else will start to become spectators. And sadly, everyone, including the media will give all the credit to that one player. Now I can argue both sides of this. But if the new culture is unselfishness and ball movement, how can you then praise a PG that does exactly the opposite. If Cousins is supposed to be the star of the team, how can you praise a PG that takes almost twice as many shots as Cousins. Now if that's what you really want, then fine. Lets build the team around IT and be done with it. Yeah, he gets credit for bringing us back and winning the game. So what? Its a stinking preseason game!!!! This is the time when were supposed to be building a culture, right? I guess I'm confused as to what were building. You can't endorse the very things your criticizing and retain credibility.
And by the way, I'm not being critical of IT. I don't blame him one bit. He did what he does! The problem is, what he does won't be effective every game, and then what? Where's the system? Where's the discipline? Where's the accountability? IT scored most of his points at the line. What happens on the nights when he doesn't get the calls? Just asking...
Where you and I agree is that our offense just didn't look like an offense. Can anyone tell me how many times the ball got passed to McLemore in the 4th quarter? How many shot attempts did Cousins have in the entire game, and who prey tell, took the most shots in the game? I believe McLemore only took 5 shots total if memory serves. I've said this a million times, but when one player decides to dominate the ball, and take all the shots, everybody else will start to become spectators. And sadly, everyone, including the media will give all the credit to that one player. Now I can argue both sides of this. But if the new culture is unselfishness and ball movement, how can you then praise a PG that does exactly the opposite. If Cousins is supposed to be the star of the team, how can you praise a PG that takes almost twice as many shots as Cousins. Now if that's what you really want, then fine. Lets build the team around IT and be done with it. Yeah, he gets credit for bringing us back and winning the game. So what? Its a stinking preseason game!!!! This is the time when were supposed to be building a culture, right? I guess I'm confused as to what were building. You can't endorse the very things your criticizing and retain credibility.
And by the way, I'm not being critical of IT. I don't blame him one bit. He did what he does! The problem is, what he does won't be effective every game, and then what? Where's the system? Where's the discipline? Where's the accountability? IT scored most of his points at the line. What happens on the nights when he doesn't get the calls? Just asking...
Well what happened last night was that the Warriors were actively taking away the passing lanes to get Cousins the ball in the post. Nobody could get the ball in the post, not Vasquez, not IT, not Jimmer, not McLemore. We saw what happens when Vasquez can't get the ball to Cousins and start the play... the offense dies. Vasquez cannot create for himself well off the dribble. Neither can Jimmer. Isaiah is the only one who can do it, and we were kind of forced to ride that because the defense wasn't letting us get the ball into the spots we wanted. Which is understandable. This is a young team going against one of the better teams in the league.
By the way, this is the second time the offense has completely ground to a halt on Vasquez's watch as the team fell into a 18 point hole. In the Blazers game, there was no Demarcus, so Vasquez-led offense was basically a lamb getting ready to be gobbled up by wolves. In this game, the defense took Demarcus out of the game because the entire team failed at post-entry passes. Once again, under the much heralded pass-first leadership of Vasquez, the team fell into a big hole. Demarcus had six points at halftime. He had five in the second half. Hardly inspiring ability from our "pass-first" PG to get the big guy involved.
With Isaiah, at least when plays broke down, we had someone who could collapse the defense by getting into the lane, even if he was shooting too much. And thank God he was around, because otherwise this would have been blowout city.
And we aren't even getting into the defense.
So tell me again, why should we support Vasquez starting at PG when he fails to get Demarcus involved against a good defense? If defenses start taking Demarcus away, who's going to create? Sure, it was fun watching Demarcus chew up a crappy Suns team and the Clippers backup scrubs. But against a good team, you need someone on the perimeter who can create their own shot to relieve some pressure off of Demarcus. That sure as hell is not going to be Vasquez.
By the way, this is the second time the offense has completely ground to a halt on Vasquez's watch as the team fell into a 18 point hole. In the Blazers game, there was no Demarcus, so Vasquez-led offense was basically a lamb getting ready to be gobbled up by wolves. In this game, the defense took Demarcus out of the game because the entire team failed at post-entry passes. Once again, under the much heralded pass-first leadership of Vasquez, the team fell into a big hole. Demarcus had six points at halftime. He had five in the second half. Hardly inspiring ability from our "pass-first" PG to get the big guy involved.
With Isaiah, at least when plays broke down, we had someone who could collapse the defense by getting into the lane, even if he was shooting too much. And thank God he was around, because otherwise this would have been blowout city.
And we aren't even getting into the defense.
So tell me again, why should we support Vasquez starting at PG when he fails to get Demarcus involved against a good defense? If defenses start taking Demarcus away, who's going to create? Sure, it was fun watching Demarcus chew up a crappy Suns team and the Clippers backup scrubs. But against a good team, you need someone on the perimeter who can create their own shot to relieve some pressure off of Demarcus. That sure as hell is not going to be Vasquez.
I don't believe I even mentioned Vasquez, but to put forth the premise that no one could get the ball into Cousins is ridiculous! Vasquez got the ball into him several times, and on about half of them he was doubled and kicked the ball out. There were occasions in the second half, too many occasions, when IT came down the floor and had no intent to pass the ball to anyone. Several times he just stopped and popped. Now if that's what you want out of your PG, then fine. Its not what I want out of mine. A PG should try to keep everyone involved. Vazquez certainly has some rust on him, but he did get the ball to Patterson several times when he was open. Unfortunately, Patterson wasn't as hot as he was in the previous game.
As per my usual, I went and watched the game a second time. There were 6 occasions where Cousins beat Bogut to a spot right under the basket, three of them on IT's watch. On only two occasions did Cousins get the ball in that spot, and he scored on one and was fouled on the other. Ironicly, Jimmer was one of the people that got him the ball. Not raving about Jimmer who I thought had a game where he just didn't accomplish much. But IT ignored Cousins on that spot three times, so don't give me some BS about not being able to get the ball to Cousins. You have to want to get him the ball before it'll happen.
The bottom line of course is that we didn't win the game with offense, we won it with Defense!
to give him more than limited minutes in a handful of preseason games to develop chemistry with cousins. the kings have to make a decision on whether or not to re-sign vasquez by next offseason, so they need to determine his value to this team. presumably, there are only two pieces of the puzzle firmly in place going forward: cousins and mclemore. vasquez may be another, but the new regime will need an extended look before they make that decision...
I honestly do not see a problem with starting Vasquez when we DO have IT on tap. If I remember right a long time ago Bobby Jax closed out almost every game because the starting PG was unreliable in the crunch. I am not saying this is the same thing, just pointing that I am more interested in who and how we end a game than who starts.