Offseason Kings Thoughts, What's Next?
- Thread starter Chubbs
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True, but if he is THE long term solution, taking his lumps this year might be worth it. It beats filling the roster with MLE level contracts and players...just for fun, what do you think Thornton could net us were we to trade him now? Unfortunately, I think he needs to be showcased in the season to drive up value since we'd be selling low, but I think he's our best tradable asset next to JT (in terms of players who could bring value to add to current roster.)
I don't believe Thornton has value now. I'm pretty sure most of the league sees his contract as negative due to the diminished play/role since his first year here, whereas a lot of us think he can ball in the right circumstances. IMO he'd be the definition of low market value per talent which is why I don't see him going anywhere this offseason. After watching Ben in Las Vegas, if we are going to get rid of Marcus I'd feel more comfortable if we were getting back talent at that position. On a cursory glance of the roster I'd say PPat and Jimmer are the two players who might be expendable whose contracts would be palatable for other teams. PPat is a quality young improving stretch 4 still in the last year of his contract who might not be in our current/future plans, unless we plan on playing him some at the 3. Jimmer is on the last year of his deal and might have marketing value
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What next? I don't know but something in any event. We have several needs and I think at least one more will be acquired. We have Fredette, Thornton, IT, Hayes, at least two of whom must go because they all take minutes away from others who need and must get minutes. Something else will transpire before the season.
Reading this thread has a bunch of ideas about the current band of brothers but none of us have seen any of them play together with the new guys: coaches, GM, draftees and trade acquisitions. So everyone can be a little right and a little wrong but that's not the point the end of July. Picking tidbits from a bunch of contributors and adding my own salt to the stew, here's a view:
Cousins (5) is the key as is a PG who can play Pick-and-role (PAR) all day with him. But Cuz needs to establish a defensive attitude and exert his influence around the bucket to anchor a new, coordinated defense. He wants to establish that he is the best big many in the west first by example not by attitude. Shaq could be beneficial mentor for Cuz for a few months through pre-season training camp and even the first few months of the season. For now Hayes is his backup who can keep just about any big away from the bucket but thats about it. A big who defends the key and the rim is the critical need but there are virtually none available. Once Oden decides what he wants to do the Kings should move quickly to get a big such as Aldrich who is odds on favorite of KF. Aldrich moves well down low at least.
PG (1) is the role for Vasquez whose height will be giant asset in PAR with Cuz. Vasquez really wants to be on the Kings and sees how he might become a significant PG in the West. IT off the bench may be his best contribution to team play. Fredette can shoot and sees the floor much better than IT but is a mystery still. McCallum likely gets brought along slowly with limited minutes for awhile. PG key is creating and managing movement and spacing on the floor which has been terrible to non-existent for 3-4 years.
Thornton (2) is a better starter than bench guy from what I've seen in past 2 years. Depending on SG match ups it could be him or Salmons (basically untradeable) with McLemore getting some bench minutes gradually, coming along slowly. He has an amazing quick release and with spacing and movement (again non existent the last 3-4 years) can get many more 3-pt opportunities. Salmons is a steady, consistent vet who is a better than average defender of the 2 and 3 slots.
Mbah a Moute is apparently the (3) with Patterson and Outlaw behind him. But MaM is not a scorer or serious threat shooting away from the basket. I've been the rare optimist who thinks Outlaw can be brought into a new system and if he accepts the backup SF role and develops consistency, could be a consistent 10-12 pts, rebounder and defender in backup. He has the big hops but not the discipline. This will be his last shot.
JT is heir apparent at the (4) with Landry and Patterson pushing him. I could see Landry and Patterson in at same time as a 5 and 4 as are both scorers. Landry and JT are the vets and off the floor leaders and both are great in the locker room. Landry at 6-9 is a better rebounder and scorer than Hayes but would not have as good a luck pushing a big around as would Hayes.
More important than any particular starting lineup or bench is whether the whole crew buys into the culture and philosophy early on and it shows progress through a 10+ guy rotation. Guys that don't buy in and don't demo the culture should be short lived. But I'll bet the results in pre-season training camp may surprise us all. That is worth waiting for.
Cousins (5) is the key as is a PG who can play Pick-and-role (PAR) all day with him. But Cuz needs to establish a defensive attitude and exert his influence around the bucket to anchor a new, coordinated defense. He wants to establish that he is the best big many in the west first by example not by attitude. Shaq could be beneficial mentor for Cuz for a few months through pre-season training camp and even the first few months of the season. For now Hayes is his backup who can keep just about any big away from the bucket but thats about it. A big who defends the key and the rim is the critical need but there are virtually none available. Once Oden decides what he wants to do the Kings should move quickly to get a big such as Aldrich who is odds on favorite of KF. Aldrich moves well down low at least.
PG (1) is the role for Vasquez whose height will be giant asset in PAR with Cuz. Vasquez really wants to be on the Kings and sees how he might become a significant PG in the West. IT off the bench may be his best contribution to team play. Fredette can shoot and sees the floor much better than IT but is a mystery still. McCallum likely gets brought along slowly with limited minutes for awhile. PG key is creating and managing movement and spacing on the floor which has been terrible to non-existent for 3-4 years.
Thornton (2) is a better starter than bench guy from what I've seen in past 2 years. Depending on SG match ups it could be him or Salmons (basically untradeable) with McLemore getting some bench minutes gradually, coming along slowly. He has an amazing quick release and with spacing and movement (again non existent the last 3-4 years) can get many more 3-pt opportunities. Salmons is a steady, consistent vet who is a better than average defender of the 2 and 3 slots.
Mbah a Moute is apparently the (3) with Patterson and Outlaw behind him. But MaM is not a scorer or serious threat shooting away from the basket. I've been the rare optimist who thinks Outlaw can be brought into a new system and if he accepts the backup SF role and develops consistency, could be a consistent 10-12 pts, rebounder and defender in backup. He has the big hops but not the discipline. This will be his last shot.
JT is heir apparent at the (4) with Landry and Patterson pushing him. I could see Landry and Patterson in at same time as a 5 and 4 as are both scorers. Landry and JT are the vets and off the floor leaders and both are great in the locker room. Landry at 6-9 is a better rebounder and scorer than Hayes but would not have as good a luck pushing a big around as would Hayes.
More important than any particular starting lineup or bench is whether the whole crew buys into the culture and philosophy early on and it shows progress through a 10+ guy rotation. Guys that don't buy in and don't demo the culture should be short lived. But I'll bet the results in pre-season training camp may surprise us all. That is worth waiting for.
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CruzDude, I like your salt and pepper. I wonder if McCallum should not be brought along slowly. He is armature basketball Player and, I think, is ready for and in need of NBA experience and competition. Though IT is our second best and more experienced, he will take away from our opportunity to develop McCallum. But who knows. I'm looking forward to watching.
I don't see Cousins ever scoring 25ppg. Cousins is a good offensive player but 25ppg is in elite company. 25ppg is the kind of player you give the ball to and just let go to work. Cousins isn't that type of player.
I see Cousins just touching 20ppg with Vazquez facilitating and I'm perfectly fine with that.
I see Cousins just touching 20ppg with Vazquez facilitating and I'm perfectly fine with that.
If Cousins isn't its hard to imagine what big man ever could be. He's one of the most talented offensive bigs I have ever seen. He's more skilled than Ewing, whop peaked out at 28.6ppg. Far more skilled than guys like Mourning or Dwight, who have been well up over 20.
I don't know that he's ready to average 25ppg this year. But the extreme skill level for a big makes it far more likely that he develops that goto post move he needs to make that possible. He's got the feel, footwork, hands, and coordination for it, and the strength and power to establish position.
I don't know that he's ready to average 25ppg this year. But the extreme skill level for a big makes it far more likely that he develops that goto post move he needs to make that possible. He's got the feel, footwork, hands, and coordination for it, and the strength and power to establish position.
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Absolutely agree with this. Any team with a top 10 pick, (unless your like OKC with a lotto pick), should baptize their rookies by fire. That doesn't necessarily mean start them right away or give them the keys to the franchise, but give them a consistent 25 MPG on a nightly basis. That's what frustrated me the most with Robinson. It was frustrating he wasn't productive, but Smart couldn't even give him a consistent 15 MPG on a nightly basis. That+ having no clue what his role on the team was greatly contributed to his struggles. And whenever we did see signs of life from Trob, Smart would back it up the next game giving him 5 MPG.
I think the time for Mclemore and McCallum to log more minutes will be this season. But not from day one. If they prove they can play then IT and/or Thornton could be traded. IT and/or Thornton along with one of JT, Hayes, PPat should be able to bring back a good SF or shotblocking center. If a team has a PG, SG, PF or C go down to injury the Kings are stocked to fill that need.
Thornton should be scoring at a good clip if he starts and logs 35+ minutes a night. This will make teams needing a SG take notice.
Once those trades are made minutes would open up for the rookies.
KB
Thornton should be scoring at a good clip if he starts and logs 35+ minutes a night. This will make teams needing a SG take notice.
Once those trades are made minutes would open up for the rookies.
KB
I tend to agree with you. While it would certainly be a jump in production, I don't think its as big a jump as some think. When you consider that most of Cousins scoring came from him creating his own shot, around 60 plus percent I believe, I don't think those numbers are out of reach if the offense is centered around him, and he has a PG that can get him easy shots around the basket. Where Cuz needs to really put in the effort is in his offensive rebounding. Most of his offensive rebounds are put backs off his own misses. Playing away from the basket on offense doesn't help either. If he can improve his offensive rebounding by just 2 boards a game, he will be very close to the rebounding numbers you suggested.
Frankly I don't think they're planning on winning a lot of games. I keep remembering their comment that this season isn't about winning or losing, but about changing the culture of the team. Not exactly an appealing statement, but I think they mean't it. They apparently have a vision of what they want the team to look like. Unfortunately, to many their vision, at least for now, looks like a nightmare.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, I think Jimmer has to make it or break it as a PG in the league. 6'2" SG's usually only make it if they're, athletic, have the ability to create their own shot, and their also blessed with a great wingspan. At the moment, Jimmer can't replicate any of those things. He does have good BBIQ, and I think he has good PG instincts. If he can improve his handles enough, he might be able to succeed in the league as a PG. Perhaps a shoot first PG. I just can't see him as a SG. The only part of SG that fits him, is that he can shoot the ball. Hey, I hope he proves me wrong!
I suspect that McLemore will get significant minutes, whether he starts or not. They're invested in his success, so he needs to improve, and as quickly as possible. I don't think he'll start at the beginning of the season, but who the hell knows. I also think McCallum will get more minutes than most think. He fits their model for the team. First they went after Calderon, a pass first PG, and finally settled on Vasquez, another pass first PG. McCallum is a pass first PG. Unfortunately he didn't really have anyone in summer league he could pass to that would be successful at scoring. I think they look at McCallum as insurance against Vasquez leaving at years end. If true, he'll need minutes to get up to NBA speed. SF is still a mystery to me. As it stands now, it looks like Mbah a Moute will get a lot of the minutes.
If Malone can improve JT's defense, he's a nice fit next to Cousins. Not perfect, but he'll do until a better option comes along. Patterson is starting to look like the odd man out. Especially if they go with a three man rotation in the front court. Its possible he could get some minutes at SF with the right matchup. As it stands right now, its still an oddly put together team. Some of the parts fit, but some don't fit at all. There's still time for some changes, and its possible that one move, might cause another. For instance, they might have a move in place that depends on signing Oden. I'm just using him as an example. If Oden signs with us, then its likely that someone in the frontcourt goes. But you don't want to part with him until you know you have Oden in the fold.
If Malone can improve JT's defense, he's a nice fit next to Cousins. Not perfect, but he'll do until a better option comes along. Patterson is starting to look like the odd man out. Especially if they go with a three man rotation in the front court. Its possible he could get some minutes at SF with the right matchup. As it stands right now, its still an oddly put together team. Some of the parts fit, but some don't fit at all. There's still time for some changes, and its possible that one move, might cause another. For instance, they might have a move in place that depends on signing Oden. I'm just using him as an example. If Oden signs with us, then its likely that someone in the frontcourt goes. But you don't want to part with him until you know you have Oden in the fold.
What guard overload? You know they have to have a minimum 13 players on the roster. We have 6 guards, 1 center, 7 forwards.
You need 3 PG's or at least 2 PG's and someone who can bring the ball up active every night due to foul trouble or injury. That means Vasquez, IT and McCallum. Now one of them won't be getting any or very limited minutes unless there is foul trouble or an injury. At the SG we have Thornton, McLemore and Jimmer. MT and McLemore will be getting the minutes so that leaves Jimmer as the odd man out.
You need 3 PG's or at least 2 PG's and someone who can bring the ball up active every night due to foul trouble or injury. That means Vasquez, IT and McCallum. Now one of them won't be getting any or very limited minutes unless there is foul trouble or an injury. At the SG we have Thornton, McLemore and Jimmer. MT and McLemore will be getting the minutes so that leaves Jimmer as the odd man out.
Are you basing your opinion on analysis from others? I ask because I try to watch 100+ college games in a year and Detroit only came up once for me in the NIT game (which I only watched a portion of). McCallum never caught my eye as someone I would want to draft. I am glad he's here, but I don't really pin my hopes on him, and I don't think he was drafted too late.
For starters, I've never "pinned my hopes" on him. What I said was that I think he could develop into something special, which I believe to be possible due to his summer league performances, the finishing and ball handling ability he displayed, his 6'4 height as a point guard, and his 40 inch vertical. Not to mention the commitment he displayed by choosing to go to his father's school instead of the big-name places whom he recieved offers from.
So, I still haven't seen any proposed trades that are even close to realistic. Sure, we'd all love to trade IT and Hayes for a starting sf. Ha! Why would the other team do that! For a washed up big man and a backup pg? There's a reason two second rounders went for mbah a moute. Milwaukee said they'd rather have nothing than what we had to offer. And I don't blame them. You people waiting for trades sound like the guy in fantasy sports who keeps trying to trade his 11 th and 12th round picks for a 3rd rounder. No one wants 11 th and 12th round talent! And not two of them.
This is the team. Save for cousins turning into shaq and Malone into Tom thibedeau, it's hard to see the team being any better with the team as constructed. Everyone has been saying for the past month more is coming in way of deals. I don't think it is. Not anything meaningful. The best we can hope for is grabbing some great talent off waivers that has struggled or something. Like Portland did with Trob.
One of the worst parts of the Landry signing, is now Patterson is kinda left with no role. We gave up the 5th pick for a guy, Patterson, then go out and overpay another guy at his position? Why would we do that? To get to the min salary level? that's all I can come up with.
This is the team. Save for cousins turning into shaq and Malone into Tom thibedeau, it's hard to see the team being any better with the team as constructed. Everyone has been saying for the past month more is coming in way of deals. I don't think it is. Not anything meaningful. The best we can hope for is grabbing some great talent off waivers that has struggled or something. Like Portland did with Trob.
One of the worst parts of the Landry signing, is now Patterson is kinda left with no role. We gave up the 5th pick for a guy, Patterson, then go out and overpay another guy at his position? Why would we do that? To get to the min salary level? that's all I can come up with.
for those who "have faith," here's something worth considering...
carl landry, 29, 6'9", 248 lbs (sacramento kings, 4/$27 million)
2012-2013 per 36: 16.8 ppg (54% shooting), 9.3 rebs, 1.2 asts, .6 blks
dejuan blair, 24, 6'7", 270 lbs (dallas mavericks, 1/$1.4 million)
2012-2013 per 36: 13.9 ppg (52% shooting), 9.7 rebs, 1.9 asts, .4 blks
carl landry, 29, 6'9", 248 lbs (sacramento kings, 4/$27 million)
2012-2013 per 36: 16.8 ppg (54% shooting), 9.3 rebs, 1.2 asts, .6 blks
dejuan blair, 24, 6'7", 270 lbs (dallas mavericks, 1/$1.4 million)
2012-2013 per 36: 13.9 ppg (52% shooting), 9.7 rebs, 1.9 asts, .4 blks
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