Young Five

Where in Warhawks post did it say "Garcia is the only person ever to do this."? He was speaking on the player that this discussion is about. Now your side is he isn't the only player?????? No kidding.

Instead of sniping at a somebods post when they add some backbone to their argument. Why not try backing up your side of the argument to give others trying to hear out both sides something to go on?


using that as your argument is just.........not very smart. you can pull up millions of those on almost any player in the league. there is no real concept there. the fact that garcia is a good player is disputable. its not indisputable. like not brushing your teeth makes your breath stink
 
And the best you can do is pull up 3 old grade threads. I'm impressed. OK, not really, but at least you are trying to find supportive material, which is more than you typically do.

Every player in the league has had bad games, and I mentioned that in a previous post. Thanks for looking that up for me. And really - a few "C-" games are the best you can do?

You have an opinion not borne out by facts and probably have ringing ears in your newly-chosen metal abode by now. Enjoy!
 
using that as your argument is just.........not very smart. you can pull up millions of those on almost any player in the league. there is no real concept there. the fact that garcia is a good player is disputable. its not indisputable. like not brushing your teeth makes your breath stink

Not if you gargle with mouth wash....
 
you can pull up millions of those on almost any player in the league. there is no real concept there. the fact that garcia is a good player is disputable. its not indisputable.

Looking at his performance as a whole and taking those into account, I think we can all safely say Garcia is not garbage. He's no all-star. But he is a decent 6th man and plays good defense and is a floor leader. If that is garbage in your view, fine. Whatever floats your boat. But according to lots of national media, he is a fairly decent player. And I will take their view (and what I see when I watch games) over your unsubstantiated rants any day.

Back it up or knock it off. Your choice.
 
And the best you can do is pull up 3 old grade threads. I'm impressed. OK, not really, but at least you are trying to find supportive material, which is more than you typically do.

Every player in the league has had bad games, and I mentioned that in a previous post. Thanks for looking that up for me. And really - a few "C-" games are the best you can do?

You have an opinion not borne out by facts and probably have ringing ears in your newly-chosen metal abode by now. Enjoy!


actually i saw more D's than C's. and i did the same thing you did. does the source matter? if you stink you stink.
 
Looking at his performance as a whole and taking those into account, I think we can all safely say Garcia is not garbage. He's no all-star. But he is a decent 6th man and plays good defense and is a floor leader. If that is garbage in your view, fine. Whatever floats your boat. But according to lots of national media, he is a fairly decent player. And I will take their view (and what I see when I watch games) over your unsubstantiated rants any day.

Back it up or knock it off. Your choice.


a good 6th man? WHAT? bobby jackson, now THAT was a 6th man. garcia couldnt hold his jock strap. oh my lord
 
why does the source matter. bricklayers grades serve a pretty good purpose. you know who played well and you know who stunk it up. doesnt matter if i heard it in the bathroom or on foxsports
 
Garcia's first year was probably average for an unheralded rookie. Last year, I think, with emphasis on the I, he made very good progress. His decision making was better. His shot selection was better, and his shooting percentage from long range improved. Because he improved, that leads me to believe he worked on his game. That, in kind, leads me to believe he will continue to improve next year. He's tough, and appears to be fearless. Something desperately needed on any team..

Doug Christie was not the best shooter in the world by a long shot. He was a good defender and a good ball handler, and also had a toughness about him. He wasn't a superstar. He wasn't even a star. But he was an important part of the team. He was a good fit for that particular team.

Right now, the Kings are trying to fit pieces together and see how they work. You'll never ever have pieces that fit together as long as you keep taking out pieces and putting in new pieces. You have to let a certain core of players play together for a while and see what they can do. And I don't mean for a month, or even just a year. Doesn't mean you can't tweak it a little now and then. But you have to have a little consistancy for a while, so you can make a proper judgement.
 
Garcia's first year was probably average for an unheralded rookie. Last year, I think, with emphasis on the I, he made very good progress. His decision making was better. His shot selection was better, and his shooting percentage from long range improved. Because he improved, that leads me to believe he worked on his game. That, in kind, leads me to believe he will continue to improve next year. He's tough, and appears to be fearless. Something desperately needed on any team..

Doug Christie was not the best shooter in the world by a long shot. He was a good defender and a good ball handler, and also had a toughness about him. He wasn't a superstar. He wasn't even a star. But he was an important part of the team. He was a good fit for that particular team.

Right now, the Kings are trying to fit pieces together and see how they work. You'll never ever have pieces that fit together as long as you keep taking out pieces and putting in new pieces. You have to let a certain core of players play together for a while and see what they can do. And I don't mean for a month, or even just a year. Doesn't mean you can't tweak it a little now and then. But you have to have a little consistancy for a while, so you can make a proper judgement.


if you wana shut me up thats how you do it. nice post. martin is ok. the young bigs havent had their chance yet. so garcia is still the unproven player of the bunch. but no doubt he's improved a little. still has a long way to go
 
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So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

I'd imagine that by the time the Kings contend again at least one or two will have been moved, but if we're lucky that day will be relatively soon and a few of these guys will be the surrounding cast. The question is, is there something specific the Kings should be looking for in a "superstar", or does this group give enough coverage that any will do (ignoring the fact that in all cases you'd take any superstar you can get)?

It's definitely a decent start. Still lots to go. We've got

Kevin, a tremendous scorer who I expect to score 22+ and flirt with all star status every year. He won't cement all star status until he adds another dimension to his game: defense, passing/creating for others, rebounding. But for a 2nd option, he's pretty good.

Beno, a solid starting PG, who as long as he can play decent defense and hit the open shot, can be a starter for a contending team, IMO. His passing and ability to create may get better with more experience, cohesion, chemistry with the guys.

Cisco, energy 6th man off the bench at the SG/SF spots. Defense, hustle, shooting.

The most intriguing, to me at least, are the big men. I'm still not sure what Spencer's ceiling is. He'll never be a defensive stalwart down low, but every team needs a guy who can create in the paint. Spencer should be our guy down there.

Jason, too, is a ? But if he turns out to be a solid defender and post presence, I'll be pleased.

Added together, it's an interesting mix. Hopefully Reggie will stress the run, with Beno leading the break with Martin and Garcia running on the wings. Jason, too, I understand is good in transition. Then in the half court, Beno driving and dishing, Kevin's slashing, and Hawes in the post. What we still need is the true #1, the guy who can create for himself and others, and carry the team on his back. At this point, he could be a PG (although that's no longer as urgent) big man, or even SF (where they are, at least historically, easier to find).
 
It's definitely a decent start. Still lots to go. We've got

Kevin, a tremendous scorer who I expect to score 22+ and flirt with all star status every year. He won't cement all star status until he adds another dimension to his game: defense, passing/creating for others, rebounding. But for a 2nd option, he's pretty good.


lets talk, ill make it quick. so if martin is a tremendous scorer why isnt he an allstar? question of the day. 2nd question, so you admit martin is a one-dimensional player?
 
a good 6th man? WHAT? bobby jackson, now THAT was a 6th man. garcia couldnt hold his jock strap. oh my lord

Bobby averaged 15.2 ppg his best year (2002-2003, his 6th in the league). He shot 46% and 38% from the 3. 3.7 rebouds, 3.1 assists, 1.2 steals.

Cisco in his 3rd year (2007-2008) averaged 12.3 ppg, 46%, 39%, 3.3 rebounds, 1.6 assists, and 1.2 steals per game. Not too far off, and he's playing for a much worse team than the one Bobby was on offensively.
 
lets talk, ill make it quick. so if martin is a tremendous scorer why isnt he an allstar? question of the day. 2nd question, so you admit martin is a one-dimensional player?

Right now Martin's at about the Michael Redd level. Scorer, and best player on a bad team. For him to become an all star, yes, he needs to add another dimension. That's nothing new.
 
Bobby averaged 15.2 ppg his best year (2002-2003, his 6th in the league). He shot 46% and 38% from the 3. 3.7 rebouds, 3.1 assists, 1.2 steals.

Cisco in his 3rd year (2007-2008) averaged 12.3 ppg, 46%, 39%, 3.3 rebounds, 1.6 assists, and 1.2 steals per game. Not too far off, and he's playing for a much worse team than the one Bobby was on offensively.


couple things here. bobby jackson was 29 at the time. garcia coming off his best year so far was 26. bobby jackson averages 3 points more and 2 more assists. the point difference is not really as close as you think! not to mention that bobby jackson was on a team filled with studs. garcia is on a team filled with everything else.
 
Right now Martin's at about the Michael Redd level. Scorer, and best player on a bad team. For him to become an all star, yes, he needs to add another dimension. That's nothing new.


that opinion is disputable as long as ron is here. and i would kill to have redd
 
couple things here. bobby jackson was 29 at the time. garcia coming off his best year so far was 26. bobby jackson averages 3 points more and 2 more assists. the point difference is not really as close as you think! not to mention that bobby jackson was on a team filled with studs. garcia is on a team filled with everything else.

Um, you are making my point for me. Garcia still has 3 years to get to the point where Bobby was. He's improving every year. Bobby was on a team that was wildy praised for the assists that got dished around - e.g. Ron Artest wasn't there at the time. He had more opportunities to score and get assists. He was also playing 2 more minutes per game at the time.

Now I am not saying that Cisco is better than Bobby or anything, but to say that "garcia couldnt hold his jock strap. oh my lord" is pretty biased at the very least and just plain wrong to many. Cisco is better than many give him credit for, especially considering his floor leadership.
 
PG: Beno Udrih - The jury is still out but played solid last year.


SG: Kevin Martin - efficient scorer however needs to get be physically stonger to advance his game. If he can get stronger his game will open up tremendously, he will be able to fend off the top defenders and also his assists and steals can easily double with better strength training.

SF: Francisco Garcia - Shoots the ball well and improved last year. Great energy and passion for the game and cold hearted in the clutch. Solid all around player.


PF: Jason Thompson - TBD


C: Spencer Hawes - Had a good rookie season and I cant see him not having a breakout year. Needs to improve his rebounds if he wants to become a impact player.
 
Thanks for the input folks. I'm more curious as to what you all think of them as a group, not as individuals. Does that group lack rebounding ability, interior defense, playmaking, something else? Does it excel at scoring, help defense, hustle, something else?

Looking at the young group collectively, it looks promising. Right now, rebounding is a huge key, IMO, so hopefully Thompson really works out for us there. And one more thing w/ Thompson- I REALLY hope he can help the Kings in the low post w/ Hawes & Brad. Jason & Spence just really need to hit the weights and drink more protein shakes, b/c we definitely need a presence in the low post.

But as far as the "run & gun" offense, I'm excited! I remember last year, there was a good stretch of games when Beno, Kevin, Salmons & Cisco all played REALLY well together.

Assuming Ron gets traded, I'm sure the offense won't be as bogged down. But him leaving really creates a void in our defense. Lets hope whoever we trade for can fill it as well as Jason Thompson & Sheldon. Sheldon, as well as Q, needs to have a good year and finally earn some PT. If our reserves can develop into a "solid" bench, I would be one happy camper!

But otherwise, I'm stoked about the upcoming year!
 
most of us broke them down 1 by 1 because individually they dont compliment eachother. christie would be the perfect player to have around martin. if garcia became a better passer then maybe. overall our interior defense/offense is unproven. thats #1 on the list.
 
With ron most likely on his way out the lack of a defensive presence will be evident however Salmons is underrated on D. GP needs to play his cards very well for things to work out. In the back of my mind im hoping for something working out for josh smith some how some way.
 
some silly comments here >.>

Garcia was fantastic last year, he won a few games by himself on some clutch three pointers and was exciting to watch all year...he will be a very good 6th man.

PG: Beno Udrih - solid, and will improve I believe.
SG: Kevin Martin - great scorer...anyone who thinks he's nothing special is kidding themselves...needs to improve defense most of all to me.
SF: Francisco Garcia - can give you a bit of everything when not forcing things.
PF: Jason Thompson - dunno yet
C: Spencer Hawes - very talanted on offense, can do it all...just has to put it all together and will continue to get a lot better...must improve rebounding most of all.
 
So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group (as a group)? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?
Short answer: depending on Thompson, lots of offense (if he is overwhelmed, a lot of scoring, but can be stopped when teams lock down). Defensively ruinous. Boardwork, highly questionable.

However, let's play a game:

I think that Beno and Cisco could be roleplaying starters on a team with a legit superstar to lead them (I also think Cisco could be a roleplaying 6th man on a similar team). I think Kevin will never be that superstar, but I think scoringwise at least he could be a #2 scorer to a legit superstar. I think, if we are lucky, that Spenser might eventually be able to become a Big Z type #3 scorer (take a few years). That's all optimistic, but basically what that leaves you with is the supporting cast of legit superstar...and one position for that superstar to play: PF. I do not know what Jason Thompson is going to be like. I do know (or at least feel very sure) that it was Thompson's guard skills in a big man body that helped impress Geoff. And further I know that we used to have ourselves another PF with amazing guard skills that ushered in the greatest period in franchise history. So let's play a game:

C- Hawes
PF- Webber (circa 2002)
SF- Cisco
OG- Martin
PG- Beno

That would just be the dream scenario -- that Jason Thompson blossoms in remarkable fashion and steps forward as that missing superstar. So THEN how would we look? What would we need?
1)We would be shaky on the glass -- Webbthompson would be the only exceptional person, we have skinny wings, and a shaky rebounding center .
2) Defensively...we would likely need a changup. Kevin is a poor defender, Beno is smarter on that end than sometimes given credit for, but quickness challenged against the darts, Cisco makes the spectacular plays, but also makes mistakes and will be givign away 30 lbs against many SFs (Ron included), Hawes, even in his prime, figures to be no better than adequate, and even Webbthompson has little chance to be a ferocious stopper -- you just hope he can hold his own and cover some ground. So you need a stopper/leader -- something like the Christie trade (and Bobby acquisition) in 2001. I'm thinking here the best target would be Cisco's slot because of his versatility and usefulness as a 6th man type. Trade for a defensive stopper of a SF (a sane one who does not need many shots), let the new guy play Christie to Kevin's Peja, swing Cisco to the bench as the versatile Hedo guy. And then you STILL need more defense. Specifically if Webbthompson and Hawes are the frontline, the first big of the bench needs to be Pollard -- big, fullsized PF/C banger. And the backup PG needs to be a tough and fesity defender ala Bobby.
3) Offensively, assuming the perfect Webbthompson sueprstar emergence, we are potent.

So my modified lineup then is:

C- Hawes
PF- perfect fantasy Jason Thompson who grows to Webber talent
SF- unspecified sane roleplaying, not shot munching, unselfish defensive stopper
OG- Martin
PG- Udrih

6th- Cisco
7th- unspecified roleplaying big ole PF/C banger
8th- unspecified roleplaying pesky defensive minded PG


At which point obviously we are back with a similar structure to the golden era teams.

Now in the real world, where Jason Thompson maybe has < 1% chance of becoming that superstar, our issues are greater, because we still need that guy. And to say they are hard to get wouold be an understatement.
 
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Brick I don't mean to make predictions on a kid that we haven't seen yet. But isn't Ewing Jr. described as exactly that roleplaying defensive stopper that don't take to many shots? He also has shot blocking athleticism. Now I don't know about the steals or what not. Also who knows maybe Singletary could be the Bobby Jackson. Now as far as the Pollard sounds alot like David Lee doesn't it??? Artest to New York revisited LOL.

Just think if this post gets in the hands of the New York Post it will be in the paper tomorrow that Artest is going to be traded to New York.
 
Also Brick don't look now but, I think for the first time in 3 years you are being optimistic!!! Could it be that like some of us you finally feel we MAY have a formidable PF if his game translates to this level??
 
Well...with the opening proviso that I have given no thought to who these people would eb in the end:

Well, people are talking about Ewing JR., but his limitations were so severe he could not even start in college. There is a high high chance he never even makes the roster, let alone as a starter. He has low skill level. He is free to surprise me, but I'm not holding my breath on a 40-something pick that was lucky to even be drafted. If he makes the roster, he's done well for himself.

And Lee...he's a good rebounder. But he's not really a banger. Basically if you have finesse starters at the big man spots, you need a big ole physical brute off the bench to even pretend to be tough inside. And Lee isn't it. He's really a PF/SF combo, not PF/C, and he is a poor defender and non-shotblocker. Beyond my pointless musings I have beyond no idea who the guy would eventually be (if he's even in the league), but Lee behind my hypothetical frontline makes the frontline talented, but oh so buttery soft. Would help clear up the rebounding at least.
 
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Just my opinion:

Beno- still need one more year to evaluate but like what he did so far
K-Martin - solid role player
Garcia - still streaky IMO
Thompson - sound good but is he? we'll see
Spencer - still young and hopefully developed well with age. He did show progress when he was given more time to play. Hopefully we see more of him this coming year.


I'm sorry but 6th in the league in scoring does not get you the title of "Solid Role Player". Martin is a baller. He will be an All-Star a couple times before his career is over, I promise you that.
 
I have a feeling that this team may end up quite well on the offensive end. There aren't real ball hogs, and I predict some high post action with Hawes and Thompson's potential offensive game. However, it really doesn't help on the boards, which is a big knock.
I think that's why the defensive presence needs to come from the SF position. I also agree that Garcia would be a good person to run roughshod (to pursue a course regardless of the pain or distress it may cause others.) as a high energy floor leader of the 2nd unit.

I guess I'm saying that this young core doesn't look as haphazardly put together as the vets on this team currently do.
 
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