Young Five

[uolj]

So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group (as a group)? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

I'd imagine that by the time the Kings contend again at least one or two will have been moved, but if we're lucky that day will be relatively soon and a few of these guys will be the surrounding cast. The question is, is there something specific the Kings should be looking for in a "superstar", or does this group give enough coverage that any will do (ignoring the fact that in all cases you'd take any superstar you can get)?

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

We have a solid group of roleplayers, all we need is that superstar to make it all work.

Lebron in 2010?

 

[Spike]

We have a solid group of roleplayers, all we need is that superstar to make it all work.

Lebron in 2010?

Not unless Jay-Z buys the Kings and puts them in Brooklyn.

 

[Rookie]

So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

I'd imagine that by the time the Kings contend again at least one or two will have been moved, but if we're lucky that day will be relatively soon and a few of these guys will be the surrounding cast. The question is, is there something specific the Kings should be looking for in a "superstar", or does this group give enough coverage that any will do (ignoring the fact that in all cases you'd take any superstar you can get)?

Just my opinion:

Beno- still need one more year to evaluate but like what he did so far
K-Martin - solid role player
Garcia - still streaky IMO
Thompson - sound good but is he? we'll see
Spencer - still young and hopefully developed well with age. He did show progress when he was given more time to play. Hopefully we see more of him this coming year.

If Thompson is solid then Lebron would be perfect IMO. But like every "superstar" they don't like our cow-town but we'll see. I on the other hand wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

2010 I can see it now .

 

[Rain man]

So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

I'd imagine that by the time the Kings contend again at least one or two will have been moved, but if we're lucky that day will be relatively soon and a few of these guys will be the surrounding cast. The question is, is there something specific the Kings should be looking for in a "superstar", or does this group give enough coverage that any will do (ignoring the fact that in all cases you'd take any superstar you can get)?

I think all 5 are here for the 2010-2011 team, just maybe not all as starters. They all (with the exception of perhaps Beno) seem to have a role on an 8/9 man rotation for a contending team. Hawes/Thompson will make up 2/3 of a big man rotation. Whether Thompson is the starter or the big off the bench will depend on how good he is. I could see us with Hawes starting, and either Thomspon or another PF starting.

Garcia to me screams out as the perfect fit as a backup wing. He could fill the role of the 6th man, backing up the 2 and 3 position, bringing some scoring punch, hustle, and defense.

Martin is the starting SG. I think he would be the #2 option on a contending team, but he is clearly our starting SG of the future.

Beno is likely our backup PG. I am not certain I am crazy about that. I think we need him for the next few years until we get our PG of the future, and ideally he would slide into a backup role, but I like my backup PG to be more of a change of pace/energy guy off the bench (sort of like Bobby). If we acquired a truly good PG to start, I would rather see someone in the Singletary mold (not saying him, but if he pans out, or someone similar to his style) as the backup. To me, Beno is not our "change of pace" backup. So I like him for now, I am just not convinced he is our long term starter, and I really don't see him as an ideal backup.

I think in 2010-2011 you see this roster- 9 deep

Center: Hawes
PF: Thompson or Unknown future PF
SF: Unknown
SG: Martin
PG: Unknown
First Big off bench: Thompson or Unknown
Swingman: Garcia
Backup PG: Beno or Singletary or change of pace PG.
Extra big: A big body for foul trouble and injury situations- Unknown

Lottery picks will likely fill in the gaps. If one of those unknowns is a true start, #1 option, I think we have the makings of a very nice team. But it is nice to see the pieces and young guys being assembled...

 

[FakeInjury]

Strict and aggresively speaking:

Beno has never performed clutch like bibby.

Kevin is still a featherweight.

Garcia is the weakest link.

Jason has never made an NBA jumper.

Hawes needs to find a way to be more of an impact player(slow).

 

[Warhawk]

Strict and aggresively speaking:

Beno has never performed clutch like bibby.

Kevin is still a featherweight.

Garcia is the weakest link.

Jason has never made an NBA jumper.

Hawes needs to find a way to be more of an impact player(slow).

Beno has scored for us in games in the 4th before - if none other than our big win in LA last year.

Kevin is not any lighter than Rip or some others in that mold. Yes, he needs more improvement, but he has improved every year and stated he would work hard this summer as well, so I don't doubt it.

Garcia is a decent 6th man. I don't see how he is such a weak link.

Hawes was coming off knee surgery and missed a portion of last season. I liked what he brought in the limited time he played, and he will continue to improve.

 

[CruzDude]

So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?
)?

Good thought track. Adding a bit of reality, as of today July 3 I see following role layout:

PG: Beno Udrih (Singletary + 1)
SG: Kevin Martin (Cisco, Douby or new shooter/scorer)
SF: RonRon (Salmons, Cisco)
PF: Mikki (Jason Thompson, Shelden Williams)
C: Brad (Spencer Hawes, Jason)

That is 13 the minimum roster. Patrick Ewing Jr is giant "?" but could end up supporting the 2, 3 and 4 depending on matchups or disappear. Then its up to the young guys to push on the starters for their minutes. Douby stays or goes as he is on the young guys bubble and in summer league and training camp needs to fight for his NBA/Kings life.

This assumes KT and SAR are non-active and Lorenzen Wright is gone. I think Anthony Johnson is gone also, expired contract?

Problem is if RonRon gets traded we get back 1 or 2 players. My hope would be to get back 1 player and a first round draft pick. Wouldn't be surprised tho' if one player is a 2008 first round draftee plus a vet.

Lets see what summer camp brings.........

 

[bajaden]

Strict and aggresively speaking:

Beno has never performed clutch like bibby.

Kevin is still a featherweight.

Garcia is the weakest link.

Jason has never made an NBA jumper.

Hawes needs to find a way to be more of an impact player(slow).

You know, it appears to me that some of you look at our roster and if you don't see a superstar at any position, then their crap. Get rid of them. Just what is the definition of a superstar? It appears to differ from person to person.

I personally hate the term. It almost implies superhuman qualities. It wasn't that long ago that Steve Francis was considered a superstar by some pundits. Who the hell wants him now?

Beno has never performed clutch like Bibby. How long did it take you to think that one up. He's never even started until last year. He came to a team where he didn't know any of the players and had a constantly changing lineup. All things considered, he played pretty well. Was he a superstar? Hell no. But you know what? Neither was Nash, Stocton, Cousy, Kevin Johnson and countless others at age 25. I'm not saying he's going to be any of those guys, but for Gods sake, cut him a little slack until he's had as many chances at clutch shots as Bibby.

In Garcia's first year, I wanted to strangle him. He drove me nuts with his bad decisions. Last year, he improved greatly. Did he still make mistakes at times? Yes, but they were fewer. I have stated that it usually takes three years for the average NBA player to determine who he is on the court. This next year should be a defining year for Garcia. You have to be patient with young players that you draft. Otherwise some other team will reap the benefits of your investment. Look how long it took Jermaine O' Neal to become who he is. Portland had a guy that just took up space on their bench for three years and gave up on him.

Thompson has never made an NBA jumper.. Brilliant statement, very enlightening..

Kevin is still a lightweight.. Who cares, as long as he can score 22 to 25 points a game and stay healthy. Would I like a little better defense out of him? Yes! But I can live with what he brings right now. At least he doesn't take 25 shots to score 25 points, like some of the other so called great scorers.

Hawes needs to find a way to become more of an impact player. ( slow ). Strange, I thought he sort of dispelled some of that label last year, when people were pleasantly surprised how well he ran the floor and moved laterally. Perhaps you wern't watching. I'll mention it to him that he needs to get better though, so he can start working on it. Especially that slow part. I heard that he took speed reading in college. I guess that didn't help.

 

[uolj]

Thanks for the input folks. I'm more curious as to what you all think of them as a group, not as individuals. Does that group lack rebounding ability, interior defense, playmaking, something else? Does it excel at scoring, help defense, hustle, something else?

 

[VF21]

Thanks for the input folks. I'm more curious as to what you all think of them as a group, not as individuals. Does that group lack rebounding ability, interior defense, playmaking, something else? Does it excel at scoring, help defense, hustle, something else?

You know what that group shows to me? Potential and hope. And right now that's really what I'm looking forward to seeing evolve into something better.

Off hand, I think they'll have heart and hustle, energy and excitement - the phrases I started using last year and hope to make a mantra this season.

 

[Showtime]

What I liked about the team with Beno, Salmons, and Garcia in the lineup was their team defense, and energy. They had the quickness for the speed on the rotations for zone defense, and I think that with a better post defender (Thompson?) in the middle, they could really do some damage.

 

[Spike]

Anyway, youth brings energy and excitement, albeit with a ton of mistakes. I'm cool with that. That lineup has good potential with another few years of working together. I do agree, however, that this lineup still needs someone major, be it through the draft (which is most likely) or free agency.

 

[fnordius]

I think in 2010-2011 you see this roster- 9 deep

Center: Hawes
PF: Thompson or Unknown future PF
SF: Unknown
SG: Martin
PG: Unknown
First Big off bench: Thompson or Unknown
Swingman: Garcia
Backup PG: Beno or Singletary or change of pace PG.
Extra big: A big body for foul trouble and injury situations- Unknown

I'm not prepared to guess that Garcia will still be around, unless he wants an extension at a pretty low rate of pay. If he is still around, I wouldn't rule out his being our starting SF, since we'd have to do really well in the next draft to have a viable alternative ready to go in time. Likewise for Udrih and the PG position.

 

[VF21]

Note: This thread has been edited to restore it to the topic at hand. If anyone whose posts may have "disappeared" has a problem with that, they can feel free to discuss it with the moderators.

 

[tyrant]

staying on topic,

weak links in the "young five"

garcia is one for sure. we have yet to learn what the young big men can do. martin is a solid player, but he cant carry the team. in other words, if this is the starting five we'll see for the next 2 or 3 years we will never hit 40 wins! basketball (ladies and gentlemen) begins from the outside in. meaning that if our guards cant make good decisions, take care of the ball and knock down shots; we wont make it

 

[Warhawk]

staying on topic,

weak links in the "young five"

garcia is one for sure. we have yet to learn what the young big men can do. martin is a solid player, but he cant carry the team. in other words, if this is the starting five we'll see for the next 2 or 3 years we will never hit 40 wins! basketball (ladies and gentlemen) begins from the outside in. meaning that if our guards cant make good decisions, take care of the ball and knock down shots; we wont make it

Garcia is not such a weak link - he plays decent to good defense, hits big shots, and is a floor leader:

He's shooting 46% and 39% from the 3. He gets over a steal per game. He justles his a** off and has cut down on many of his mistakes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260119023

Garcia's eyes still were wide after a night spent guarding Bryant with tight defense that probably prevented a huge game from becoming historic. Garcia also hit the Kings' final field goal, burying a 3-pointer with 54 seconds left in regulation.

Luke Walton got an earful from Bryant after the third quarter ended, but Garcia's defense was the real reason for Bryant's relative ineffectiveness.

http://louisville.scout.com/a.z?s=17&p=2&c=731629

On the season, Garcia is averaging 12 points, 3.5 rebounds, and 1.5 assists per game and has filled in adequately for Martin and Artest, who have both seen their share of injuries this season. Now that Bibby is gone, Garcia is starting to see more playing time and he is making the most of it. Since Bibby was traded, Garcia has taken over for the Kings and is proving that he can be a leader, averaging 20 ppg.

What makes Garcia a commodity is his shooting ability, something that many NBA teams lack. He has made 42% of his 191 three-pointers taken this season, and is also deadly from mid-range. His height makes it tough for defenders to stop him, and usually opponents must resort to just putting a hand in his face.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba..._but_nets.html

After Richard Jefferson put in a layup to make it a one-point game with 35 seconds left - and with a crowd of just 11,902 imploring the Nets to play defense - Francisco Garcia nailed a back-breaking three-pointer from the right wing. It was Sacramento's 13th three-pointer on 21 attempts and the fifth of the night for Garcia, a Bronx product.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260117023

Martin, a second-year shooting guard, increased his career high for the fifth time already this season with four 3-pointers and two impressive alley-oop dunks on passes from Bibby and Miller. Garcia was just as impressive, hitting two 3s and playing strong defense against Nash.

Kevin Martin scored a career-high 25 points, rookie Francisco Garcia added career-bests of 21 points and 10 rebounds, and the injury-depleted Kings improbably handed the Suns their biggest loss of the season, 119-90 on Tuesday night.

And I wonder who you keep thinking is saying that Martin is our #1 guy? You are acting like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills that are not there.

 

[Entity]

Strict and aggresively speaking:

Beno has never performed clutch like bibby.

Kevin is still a featherweight.

Garcia is the weakest link.

Jason has never made an NBA jumper.

Hawes needs to find a way to be more of an impact player(slow).

My take on your statements

Beno has been a backup for 3 years and finally started last year in place of an injured Bibby and earned himself the starting role this season. Do you expect anybody to be "clutch like Bibby" their first starting season??

Kevin may be a featherweight but 20pts ppg is nothing to scoff at and he the focal poing of the opposing team defense. Hence whats your point?

Garcia is our 6th man and quite good at that. he is energetic hits threes and plays good defense and rebounds well. sure he makes mistakes as did bobby jackson (foremer 6th man of the year) Bobby played very eratic much like Garcia often times forcing things that weren't there.

Jason Thompson has the skillset its just a matter of does it translate to this level. Only time will tell. Same goes for Beasley as it did Malone, Barkley, Magic. Everybody pretty much had to translate their skills to the NBA level. Once again only time will tell.

Spencer started what 2 or 3 games and actually seemed to calm down over time and he seemed comforable out there at the end of the season. Given he had no training camp and was on IR for the first quarter of the season and was slowed a bit by his knee surgury. Final time I say this. Only time will tell.


Not to mention. the role players and vets Ron, Brad , Mikki, Salmons. and the rook Singletary and Williams. A nice blend of kids and vets. Now I would like to see Hawes and Thompson used alot this season to see if we need to bank our future on them or if we need to begin the search again. Hawes seemed to be formidable I would like him to become Solid this year then maybe next become starter then star. Thats the proper growth method.

 

[AriesMar27]

garcia is the luke walton of the team... he's okay if he isnt a starter...

 

[Entity]

Posters take notice. Warhawk backed up his argument by posting actual facts and events showing Garcia is a solid player. It gives his argument a base. and much better than just saying "Garcia is the weakest link." <-------- opinion? yes fact? no


FACT > opinion

 

[tyrant]

warhawk. Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrant
guess i was one of the lucky ones.

staying on topic,

weak links in the "young five"

garcia is one for sure. we have yet to learn what the young big men can do. martin is a solid player, but he cant carry the team. in other words, if this is the starting five we'll see for the next 2 or 3 years we will never hit 40 wins! basketball (ladies and gentlemen) begins from the outside in. meaning that if our guards cant make good decisions, take care of the ball and knock down shots; we wont make it

Garcia is not such a weak link - he plays decent to good defense, hits big shots, and is a floor leader:

He's shooting 46% and 39% from the 3. He gets over a steal per game. He justles his a** off and has cut down on many of his mistakes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260119023


Quote:
Garcia's eyes still were wide after a night spent guarding Bryant with tight defense that probably prevented a huge game from becoming historic. Garcia also hit the Kings' final field goal, burying a 3-pointer with 54 seconds left in regulation.

Luke Walton got an earful from Bryant after the third quarter ended, but Garcia's defense was the real reason for Bryant's relative ineffectiveness.
http://louisville.scout.com/a.z?s=17&p=2&c=731629


Quote:
On the season, Garcia is averaging 12 points, 3.5 rebounds, and 1.5 assists per game and has filled in adequately for Martin and Artest, who have both seen their share of injuries this season. Now that Bibby is gone, Garcia is starting to see more playing time and he is making the most of it. Since Bibby was traded, Garcia has taken over for the Kings and is proving that he can be a leader, averaging 20 ppg.

What makes Garcia a commodity is his shooting ability, something that many NBA teams lack. He has made 42% of his 191 three-pointers taken this season, and is also deadly from mid-range. His height makes it tough for defenders to stop him, and usually opponents must resort to just putting a hand in his face.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba..._but_nets.html


Quote:
After Richard Jefferson put in a layup to make it a one-point game with 35 seconds left - and with a crowd of just 11,902 imploring the Nets to play defense - Francisco Garcia nailed a back-breaking three-pointer from the right wing. It was Sacramento's 13th three-pointer on 21 attempts and the fifth of the night for Garcia, a Bronx product.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260117023


Quote:
Martin, a second-year shooting guard, increased his career high for the fifth time already this season with four 3-pointers and two impressive alley-oop dunks on passes from Bibby and Miller. Garcia was just as impressive, hitting two 3s and playing strong defense against Nash.

Kevin Martin scored a career-high 25 points, rookie Francisco Garcia added career-bests of 21 points and 10 rebounds, and the injury-depleted Kings improbably handed the Suns their biggest loss of the season, 119-90 on Tuesday night.
And I wonder who you keep thinking is saying that Martin is our #1 guy? You are acting like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills that are not there.

you're pulling up columns and picking certain areas to post. nothing wrong with that, but im sure he's not the only player in the league to star in his own paragraph.

 

[VF21]

you're pulling up columns and picking certain areas to post.

Why yes, yes he is. It's called substantiating your comments with evidence of corroborating opinions or even FACTS. Interesting concept.

 

[Entity]

Where in Warhawks post did it say "Garcia is the only person ever to do this."? He was speaking on the player that this discussion is about. Now your side is he isn't the only player?????? No kidding.

Instead of sniping at a somebods post when they add some backbone to their argument. Why not try backing up your side of the argument to give others trying to hear out both sides something to go on?

 

[Warhawk]

you're pulling up columns and picking certain areas to post. nothing wrong with that, but im sure he's not the only player in the league to star in his own paragraph.

So let's see you do the same supporting your point of view. You know, that Garcia is "garbage". Yes, every player has a bad game now and then. I have shown that on a regular basis he performs well defensively, hits big shots, and has decent stats.


We'll be waiting. Take your time.

 

[Entity]

So let's see you do the same supporting your point of view. You know, that Garcia is "garbage". Yes, every player has a bad game now and then. I have shown that on a regular basis he performs well defensively, hits big shots, and has decent stats.


We'll be waiting. Take your time.

Do I have time for a sandwich or maybe cash in my 401k and retire?

 

[Warhawk]

Do I have time for a sandwich or maybe cash in my 401k and retire?

Your choice.

 

[fnordius]

much better than just saying "Garcia is the weakest link."

Considering that 3 of the 5 have been Kings for a year or less, and 2 of the 5 have been in the NBA for a year or less, I think it's getting pretty speculative to call ANYONE the weakest link. Most of our current roster have less credibility than Garcia, and while several of those guys will have been replaced by then, who will the replacements be? Will Garcia still be a King by then? Will we have someone else who is out for a year or longer, injured or unmotivated? Will we draft another Douby?

Like most of our 2010 roster, the weakest link remains unknown.

 

[tyrant]

Francisco Garcia ( C- ) -- 25min 5pts (2-6 FG, 0-2 3pt, 1-1FT) 3reb 0ast 0stl 2blk 2TO
Came up with a three point play at the very end of the second quarter that was the only thing standing between us and pissing away our entire first half lead in the final 6 minutes of the half. Put us back up 4. And that was really it for Cisco highlight. Entirely apart formt eh three point shooting, is it just me or is this just a different player from the one we were watching in January? Would think he would be one of the last guys to pack it in, but that same energy is just not there. Had a couple of nice blocks, otherwise a lot of largely empty minutes, and watched Kapono drop a ton of points in his face in the second quarter too. March 2008

THIS IS MY FAVORITE Francisco Garcia ( C- ) -- 24min 8pts (3-7 FG, 1-4 3pt, 1-1FT) 2reb 1ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
Hit a three to close the first quarter, then began bricking, including a flat out airball, and with his all I do is shoot threes game anymore, was no longer helping. His won particular "highlight" was trying to block a monster Stoudemire alley oop, and managing to get himself a prime spot on what should be a niftty poster instead. March 15,2008

Cisco ( C+ ) -- played a poor first half, airballing two shots and turning it over before being quickly pulled. Didn't look any better after half offensively, but began to make some hustle plays (ncluding a fast break block on Wallace (down low, not up high) and showed up on the defensive glass. February 2008

again, the possibilities are endless. and these are just grades from bricklayer that have never been removed. difficult to find dirt on the web when you're not an allstar. if it were kobe just go to espn.com and it would tell you how many game winners he bricked. in short, didnt wana take the time to do it.

 

[tyrant]

warhawk, you're beating a steel pinata.

 

[SacKings7]

So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

I'd imagine that by the time the Kings contend again at least one or two will have been moved, but if we're lucky that day will be relatively soon and a few of these guys will be the surrounding cast. The question is, is there something specific the Kings should be looking for in a "superstar", or does this group give enough coverage that any will do (ignoring the fact that in all cases you'd take any superstar you can get)?

The first weakness that comes to my mind would be defense. It's unknown about Thompson at this point but the rest aren't great man-to-man defenders