Our veterans weren't good enough to get us wins in the first half of the season. If they're that much better now its only because the other teams aren't playing hard anymore. So really what you're saying is we should bench everyone and put in scrubs like Orlando, Memphis, and Phoenix are doing and then don't even bother coaching them... but I consider that cheating. We're bad enough to get a top 5 pick without cheating. If the league office wants to make good on their threat to punish obvious tankers they should do something about that. As it stands this stupid lottery system screws us every year so it's probably going to screw us this year too but we can still finish the season with our dignity intact. We do have control over that.
Winning culture (split from game thread)
- Thread starter Andriod_KiNg
- Start date
How did he not win us the game? He had by far the best stats on the team.
A shot in the first quarter is worth just as many points as a shot in the 4th. Do you really think that if we sat ZBo and played Jakarr, that the Kings would have taken the game to overtime and won it? ZBo might be a turd on some nights but he was the Kings best player the other night.
A shot in the first quarter is worth just as many points as a shot in the 4th. Do you really think that if we sat ZBo and played Jakarr, that the Kings would have taken the game to overtime and won it? ZBo might be a turd on some nights but he was the Kings best player the other night.
If you look at our 4 vets none of them are playing big minutes. Temple and Randolph are hovering around 25 mpg and Carter and Koufos are both down under 20. I'm willing to bet that they would be even lower if it hadn't been for some injuries. I'm not buying the idea that they are carrying us to wins.
Too bad dignity isnt rewarded with better pick odds. If other teams are benching their vets in order to get better odds, we should do it too. No reason not to. Dignity gets us picking after 7 teams has already tried to find the franchise palayer. If other teams are smart and actually doing something in order to get better in the future, we should absolutely do that too
Yeah but you have to know that if anyone actually gets punished for the first time ever in the history of tanking it'll be us. And at that point "but all these teams are doing it too" is basically just an admission of guilt. All things being equal, I'm okay with the moral high ground.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually kind of glad Vlade gave away our 2019 pick right now because at least we'll get a one year respite from re-litigating this same discussion. Every. Single. Freaking. Year.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually kind of glad Vlade gave away our 2019 pick right now because at least we'll get a one year respite from re-litigating this same discussion. Every. Single. Freaking. Year.
Temple had two career games in our two wins against the Magic this year.
ZBo has had some really good games and has carried us to a handful of wins, including the one I mentioned in the post above.
Just because these guys aren't throwing down every night on the court, doesn't mean they haven't had a huge hand in winning a big chunk of the Kings games this year. Koufos, Carter and Temple are 3 of our 4 best defenders. Like people here have already said, if you play these guys 25mpg right now against other teams in the lottery, you're going to have solid veteran players being matched up against scrubs. They're going to win you games that you don't need to be winning.
Statistically, the Kings are the 2nd worst team in the league, yet they're going to be picking 7th or 8th. We should be picking 2nd but the difference is that we ride our veterans much more than the other lottery teams do and every half dozen games or so, some of our veterans play like they're 25 again and lead the team to wins. They haven't led the team to every win but they've led them to enough to drop them from 2nd to the back end of the lottery.
ZBo has had some really good games and has carried us to a handful of wins, including the one I mentioned in the post above.
Just because these guys aren't throwing down every night on the court, doesn't mean they haven't had a huge hand in winning a big chunk of the Kings games this year. Koufos, Carter and Temple are 3 of our 4 best defenders. Like people here have already said, if you play these guys 25mpg right now against other teams in the lottery, you're going to have solid veteran players being matched up against scrubs. They're going to win you games that you don't need to be winning.
Statistically, the Kings are the 2nd worst team in the league, yet they're going to be picking 7th or 8th. We should be picking 2nd but the difference is that we ride our veterans much more than the other lottery teams do and every half dozen games or so, some of our veterans play like they're 25 again and lead the team to wins. They haven't led the team to every win but they've led them to enough to drop them from 2nd to the back end of the lottery.
If you really want to go back and look it up (please don't, there are better things to do with your time) I've been on your side of this argument for going on 10 years. I'm over it. No matter how many words I write the Kings never join the all-out tankers (with the exception of one Keith Smart sponsored season) and like clockwork we end up with a pick in the 5-8 range every time. I've finally caved and seen the light. It's seriously not worth worrying about. There will most likely be a few very good players on the board in the 5-8 range in this draft which is more than you can say most years.
Fox has as much potential as Chef Curry did at the time he was drafted. Buddy and Bogie aren't Klay but could be the same level of player in the right circumstances. There are reasons to be optimistic here without getting greedy. I want a championship as much as anyone (boy would I love to rub that in the faces of all my Laker fan friends down here in So Cal!) but I've finally used up every last neuron I'm willing to spend on worrying about draft spots and truly do not care any more. You should try it, it's invigorating!
Fox has as much potential as Chef Curry did at the time he was drafted. Buddy and Bogie aren't Klay but could be the same level of player in the right circumstances. There are reasons to be optimistic here without getting greedy. I want a championship as much as anyone (boy would I love to rub that in the faces of all my Laker fan friends down here in So Cal!) but I've finally used up every last neuron I'm willing to spend on worrying about draft spots and truly do not care any more. You should try it, it's invigorating!
The beauty of this team is that they don't have to tank by adding a bunch of scrubs from the G League. They can tank simply by playing a whole slew of first round picks and young players that need the on court time to develop. You get the development, you get the high draft pick and you up your odds of getting better, sooner.
I don't see how that is cheating the fans at all. If anything it's doing what's best for the fans.
I don't see how that is cheating the fans at all. If anything it's doing what's best for the fans.
Winning culture exists....losing culture exists....if you don't understand this then you haven't played or coached in anything resembling that. It's a mindset. Just like you can't see the air you breath, you know it's there.
And yes, of course, talent is one of the most important factors in winning games. Everybody knows that but I've seen teams rise above and beyond their talent level and the opposite when the culture becomes toxic, your talent level doesn't always overcome this.
A winning mindset/culture plus talent is a powerful mix. A winning mindset/culture plus average talent can get you some wins and some success but at some point, the talent of other teams can be difficult to overcome. A toxic culture or losing mindset is really hard to overcome even with talent....it will bite you in the end.
And yes, of course, talent is one of the most important factors in winning games. Everybody knows that but I've seen teams rise above and beyond their talent level and the opposite when the culture becomes toxic, your talent level doesn't always overcome this.
A winning mindset/culture plus talent is a powerful mix. A winning mindset/culture plus average talent can get you some wins and some success but at some point, the talent of other teams can be difficult to overcome. A toxic culture or losing mindset is really hard to overcome even with talent....it will bite you in the end.
I cant take that approach since I've seen the odds of drafting a franchise player top 3 compared to 6-8th range. Basically only thing to do when we go to a season without a clear cut franchise player and without '19 pick is to worry about the draft position and the developement of our players. I cant fool myself into speculating about playoff run. I want the franchise to get better and draft position is the basically the only thing and the most important thing I can worry about
But they're playing the kids. Skal is out (now listed as probable for tonight) and Bruno isn't ready to play much in what the rest of the team has put together as a "system" ( 
)
Those kids are playing significantly more minutes than they've ever played in their lives and the last thing we want to do is risk injury because of fatigue. That is one of the reason to play the vets at least part of the time. Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats. Until Giles is ready, I'm glad to see Koufos out there. He's a role player and excellent example for the kids. I've already mentioned how I feel about Vince. Temple? I think he fills a need right now.
Most of us have concerns about Z-Bo, but you cannot fault his heart. He's out there trying, supporting the kids when he's off the court, etc.
I think we risk more if we play the kids too much than we risk by blending some vet minutes into the mix. Joerger has said he'll play the kids as much as he feels he can. I respect that, having seen too many injuries occur when they could have been prevented/avoided. And you should know how strongly I feel abut this, since I used the one word I try very hard to avoid using. I would have said "turnips" but I doubt if some of our newer members would understand.
)Those kids are playing significantly more minutes than they've ever played in their lives and the last thing we want to do is risk injury because of fatigue. That is one of the reason to play the vets at least part of the time. Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats. Until Giles is ready, I'm glad to see Koufos out there. He's a role player and excellent example for the kids. I've already mentioned how I feel about Vince. Temple? I think he fills a need right now.
Most of us have concerns about Z-Bo, but you cannot fault his heart. He's out there trying, supporting the kids when he's off the court, etc.
I think we risk more if we play the kids too much than we risk by blending some vet minutes into the mix. Joerger has said he'll play the kids as much as he feels he can. I respect that, having seen too many injuries occur when they could have been prevented/avoided. And you should know how strongly I feel abut this, since I used the one word I try very hard to avoid using. I would have said "turnips" but I doubt if some of our newer members would understand.
We are playing a whole slew of first round picks and young players that need on court time. In the last 10 games the young guys average minutes are: Justin Jackson-27 minutes, DeAaron Fox-28, Bogdan-29, Willie-31, and Skal-28, Buddy-28, and Mason-20(who had a minutes restriction for some of those games). We are right in the thick of the tanking teams. The tank crowd here just wants more. They want real NBA players benched for guys who aren't. They are calling for the team to shelf the vets in place of d-leaguers because that's what other teams are doing.
And that is NOT gonna happen. Whether some like it or not, it's not what this organization is all about. The tanking is going to be addressed by Adam Silver at some point. It's gotten so bad that he has no real choice. I'm personally very happy the Kings aren't going to be one of the targets of that action.
Outsidr of a vague warning, do we know what the threat was? Ive seen they still play lopez a very short amount of mins. 500k to cuban is a slap on the wrist too. When millions and millions are spent on long shot gambles or just to buy a 2nd round pick, i doubt 500k does anything than influences Cuban to be more descreat. Untl an acual draft pick oa deducted or team moved back then the no tanking bent coming fromvthe NBA os all talk and no bite. The Grizzlies Mavs or any NBA team would happily pay millions or even tens of millions in penalties if it alllows them a better shot at a superstar
But can you explain why its neccesary to play the vets? What is the benefit that is so big that its bigger than putting us in a good position to draft a franchise player. Since the odds are there and posted on this forum, the concrete (actually concrete data) evidence of huge benefits of not playing the vets are shown. I would like to know the benefits of playing them and compare the two
I think Silver is indicating there will be future action taken. He does serve at the pleasure of all the owners, so he's not going to arbitrarily come out and do anything drastic without some kind of feedback from them. I suspect there are more owners than we realize who are NOT in favor of tanking and will, in fact, be amenable to some kind of action that encourages competitiveness over strategy.
Well we can talk about them
The injury case I understand. No reason to risk injuries.
Then the case becomes: why isnt Jakarr, Cooley or Bruno playing instead of these vets. Your argument aparrently is "Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats."
I understand the possible benefits. I also think the young guys could try out a bigger role with vets sitting more. Whichever way is the best way, I dont see the benefit of vets hearding the cats nearly as big as increasing our odds to get a franchise player. The difference between the average Top 3 pick and thr average 7-9th pick is so big that to me it would need a lot more to even consider that strategy
But they're playing the kids. Skal is out (now listed as probable for tonight) and Bruno isn't ready to play much in what the rest of the team has put together as a "system" ( )
Those kids are playing significantly more minutes than they've ever played in their lives and the last thing we want to do is risk injury because of fatigue. That is one of the reason to play the vets at least part of the time. Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats. Until Giles is ready, I'm glad to see Koufos out there. He's a role player and excellent example for the kids. I've already mentioned how I feel about Vince. Temple? I think he fills a need right now.
Most of us have concerns about Z-Bo, but you cannot fault his heart. He's out there trying, supporting the kids when he's off the court, etc.
I think we risk more if we play the kids too much than we risk by blending some vet minutes into the mix. Joerger has said he'll play the kids as much as he feels he can. I respect that, having seen too many injuries occur when they could have been prevented/avoided. And you should know how strongly I feel abut this, since I used the one word I try very hard to avoid using. I would have said "turnips" but I doubt if some of our newer members would understand.
)Those kids are playing significantly more minutes than they've ever played in their lives and the last thing we want to do is risk injury because of fatigue. That is one of the reason to play the vets at least part of the time. Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats. Until Giles is ready, I'm glad to see Koufos out there. He's a role player and excellent example for the kids. I've already mentioned how I feel about Vince. Temple? I think he fills a need right now.
Most of us have concerns about Z-Bo, but you cannot fault his heart. He's out there trying, supporting the kids when he's off the court, etc.
I think we risk more if we play the kids too much than we risk by blending some vet minutes into the mix. Joerger has said he'll play the kids as much as he feels he can. I respect that, having seen too many injuries occur when they could have been prevented/avoided. And you should know how strongly I feel abut this, since I used the one word I try very hard to avoid using. I would have said "turnips" but I doubt if some of our newer members would understand.
Then the case becomes: why isnt Jakarr, Cooley or Bruno playing instead of these vets. Your argument aparrently is "Another reason is to have a knowledgeable player out there to keep herding the cats."
I understand the possible benefits. I also think the young guys could try out a bigger role with vets sitting more. Whichever way is the best way, I dont see the benefit of vets hearding the cats nearly as big as increasing our odds to get a franchise player. The difference between the average Top 3 pick and thr average 7-9th pick is so big that to me it would need a lot more to even consider that strategy
I agree with you when you say winning culture is a mindset, I just think the players bring that not the organization. Take a look at the 2006-2007 Celtics. The most winning franchise in the NBA ended the season with 24 wins and at one point lost 18 straight. The next season they made some trades and won the championship the following season, with the same coach that won them 24 games the season before.
Did the Celtics have a winning culture when they won 24 games or did the talent they brought in bring the winning culture
Did the Celtics have a winning culture when they won 24 games or did the talent they brought in bring the winning culture
"Some trades" as in shipped out half their roster of highly regarded talents who mostly amounted to nothing, brought in 2 hall of famers and kept a few high end role players plus Rondo who was just emerging as an all star talent.
That is quite a bit different from building through the draft. I also think that the Celtics are one of 2-3 organizations, the others being the Lakers and the current Spurs that have winning as the centerpiece of their culture. They can withstand a bad season or two because of the size of their trophy collection. Excellence is expected, mediocrity is not tolerated.
That is quite a bit different from building through the draft. I also think that the Celtics are one of 2-3 organizations, the others being the Lakers and the current Spurs that have winning as the centerpiece of their culture. They can withstand a bad season or two because of the size of their trophy collection. Excellence is expected, mediocrity is not tolerated.
"Culture" starts at the top.
Here is an excerpt and a link concerning the current Warriors franchise:
Link:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/warriors-...g-league-led-another-new-height-organization/
Excerpt:
COMPANY CULTURE
Everyone’s voice has value in the Warriors’ Oakland headquarters. If someone has an idea, he or she is encouraged to send them to Myers.
Everyone is heard, because you never know what could tip the scales of competitive balance until it does — like, for example, shooting more threes or utilizing players in non-traditional roles.
And by fostering a company culture that has become the envy of most of the league, the Warriors landed a former MVP in the offseason — drawing the ire of most of the league.
“The primary mandate I had for myself in making this decision was to have it based on the potential for my growth as a player — as that has always steered me in the right direction,” Kevin Durant wrote in the Players’ Tribune when he shocked the NBA this summer by joining the 73-win Dubs. “But I am also at a point in my life where it is of equal importance to find an opportunity that encourages my evolution as a man.”
Landing Durant, the organization’s largest non-draft acquisition since Baron Davis, was yet another sign of how far the franchise had come — and a validation of how the Lacob/Myers/Kerr group operated as they were all heavily involved in Durant’s recruitment.
And now, the Warriors are taking another step as a franchise. Yes, the All Star Game is largely meaningless in the grand scheme, especially when the actual goal is winning championships. But, there’s nothing wrong with smelling the flowers if you’re fortunate enough to come across them.
As Kerr the realist and coach of the West team reminded, “You have to recognize this is not how it’s going to be forever.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find the current Kings culture to be exactly the opposite. No one makes ANY suggestions because the Killer V's think they know it all.
And now a story from the old Warriors.
We had season tickets for almost a decade, from RunTMC into the decline and fall (no playoffs for 17 years).
The team had a lot of perks for season ticket holders, including a lot of meet and greets with team personnel.
There came a time when the Warriors were forced to "start over" (after Nelson broke with new ownership).
I believe this was just before the 1995 season.
They hired Rick Adelman (who Portland had let go) as coach and Dave Twardzik as first time GM (we called them Twardelman).
It turned out to be a disaster.
They also hired Sandy Alderson for some front office position (came from A's - no bb expwerience).
So, we get a meet and greet just before the draft.
To reference a couple of early posters on this thread, this whole episode ruined Adelman's rep and made him easily available for Kings (no one else would have hired him). And this was the draft where Garnett was taken (and the problem in Minnesota was that he later demanded a max contract, so, there was no money for a supporting cast).
At that meet and greet, we wandered around and saw Ed Gregory by himself.
Gregory (still alive at 86) was a bb lifer, former assistant for Nelson and Karl and at this time, Director of Scouting.
We cornered him and asked, "Who are we taking?" (Warriors had #1 pick in the draft).
Gregory shrugged his shoulders and said, "I have turned in my report which says that the only franchise player that you could build a team around is the high schooler (Garnett) - the others are all just complimentary pieces. But I don't think they will take him because they are new and scared to make a mistake, so they will make a safe choice".
We thanked him and moved on. (Sure enough, they later took Joe Smith #1).
Soon Alderson came in and took the podium. Biggest ass ever. Acted like the Warriors were golden (they HAD been to the playoffs a lot and were always sold out).
The arena was going to be rebuilt during the upcoming season and he explained that the team would play in San Jose, in the Sharks arena for a year.
The kicker was that he announced that everyone had to renew their full season package (and go to San Jose 41 times) to keep their spot on the list to pick new seats after the Oakland arena was rebuilt and expanded.
Someone asked, "Can we just buy mini plans for this year?"
Alderson said, "You can, but you will select seats after full seat plan holders."
Another guy said, "You mean that if I have had full plans for 20 years but I buy a mini for just one year, some guy whop buys a full pl;an for just this one year moves AHEAD of me?"
The answer was "Yes".
People began leaving. Us too. Everyone on the way out said, "I'm done."
We did not renew either (six seats) and the team went right into the toilet.
I've heard "I'm out" this year in Golden 1. In two cases, it was because they kind of wanted out after last year (or wanted to be wooed) but the Kings renewed them on their credit card without authorization (turned out, fine print allowed them to do that).
Get ready for an exodus.
Culture starts at the top.
Here is an excerpt and a link concerning the current Warriors franchise:
Link:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/warriors-...g-league-led-another-new-height-organization/
Excerpt:
COMPANY CULTURE
Everyone’s voice has value in the Warriors’ Oakland headquarters. If someone has an idea, he or she is encouraged to send them to Myers.
Everyone is heard, because you never know what could tip the scales of competitive balance until it does — like, for example, shooting more threes or utilizing players in non-traditional roles.
And by fostering a company culture that has become the envy of most of the league, the Warriors landed a former MVP in the offseason — drawing the ire of most of the league.
“The primary mandate I had for myself in making this decision was to have it based on the potential for my growth as a player — as that has always steered me in the right direction,” Kevin Durant wrote in the Players’ Tribune when he shocked the NBA this summer by joining the 73-win Dubs. “But I am also at a point in my life where it is of equal importance to find an opportunity that encourages my evolution as a man.”
Landing Durant, the organization’s largest non-draft acquisition since Baron Davis, was yet another sign of how far the franchise had come — and a validation of how the Lacob/Myers/Kerr group operated as they were all heavily involved in Durant’s recruitment.
And now, the Warriors are taking another step as a franchise. Yes, the All Star Game is largely meaningless in the grand scheme, especially when the actual goal is winning championships. But, there’s nothing wrong with smelling the flowers if you’re fortunate enough to come across them.
As Kerr the realist and coach of the West team reminded, “You have to recognize this is not how it’s going to be forever.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find the current Kings culture to be exactly the opposite. No one makes ANY suggestions because the Killer V's think they know it all.
And now a story from the old Warriors.
We had season tickets for almost a decade, from RunTMC into the decline and fall (no playoffs for 17 years).
The team had a lot of perks for season ticket holders, including a lot of meet and greets with team personnel.
There came a time when the Warriors were forced to "start over" (after Nelson broke with new ownership).
I believe this was just before the 1995 season.
They hired Rick Adelman (who Portland had let go) as coach and Dave Twardzik as first time GM (we called them Twardelman).
It turned out to be a disaster.
They also hired Sandy Alderson for some front office position (came from A's - no bb expwerience).
So, we get a meet and greet just before the draft.
To reference a couple of early posters on this thread, this whole episode ruined Adelman's rep and made him easily available for Kings (no one else would have hired him). And this was the draft where Garnett was taken (and the problem in Minnesota was that he later demanded a max contract, so, there was no money for a supporting cast).
At that meet and greet, we wandered around and saw Ed Gregory by himself.
Gregory (still alive at 86) was a bb lifer, former assistant for Nelson and Karl and at this time, Director of Scouting.
We cornered him and asked, "Who are we taking?" (Warriors had #1 pick in the draft).
Gregory shrugged his shoulders and said, "I have turned in my report which says that the only franchise player that you could build a team around is the high schooler (Garnett) - the others are all just complimentary pieces. But I don't think they will take him because they are new and scared to make a mistake, so they will make a safe choice".
We thanked him and moved on. (Sure enough, they later took Joe Smith #1).
Soon Alderson came in and took the podium. Biggest ass ever. Acted like the Warriors were golden (they HAD been to the playoffs a lot and were always sold out).
The arena was going to be rebuilt during the upcoming season and he explained that the team would play in San Jose, in the Sharks arena for a year.
The kicker was that he announced that everyone had to renew their full season package (and go to San Jose 41 times) to keep their spot on the list to pick new seats after the Oakland arena was rebuilt and expanded.
Someone asked, "Can we just buy mini plans for this year?"
Alderson said, "You can, but you will select seats after full seat plan holders."
Another guy said, "You mean that if I have had full plans for 20 years but I buy a mini for just one year, some guy whop buys a full pl;an for just this one year moves AHEAD of me?"
The answer was "Yes".
People began leaving. Us too. Everyone on the way out said, "I'm done."
We did not renew either (six seats) and the team went right into the toilet.
I've heard "I'm out" this year in Golden 1. In two cases, it was because they kind of wanted out after last year (or wanted to be wooed) but the Kings renewed them on their credit card without authorization (turned out, fine print allowed them to do that).
Get ready for an exodus.
Culture starts at the top.