Winning culture (split from game thread)
- Thread starter Andriod_KiNg
- Start date
Had Malone been given the full season I think he'd have compiled the best record of any coach since the wheels fell off. If you ignore Boogie's illness, they were off to a hot start and the team was enjoying playing together. They were building culture. With Karl a lot of the players were miserable. Like you say, the "culture" has it's greatest effect on the guys that don't shine on their own. When you think about it most players in the NBA have the talent. It's the combo of what they do with it and how it's put together which is why winning orgs can continuously pull top talent with middling picks.
You don't need to look further than your Sacramento Kings. Unfortunately, winning culture has always been impacted by management. Whether it's letting a roster sit and stew (we ended 2010 on a 9-9 run, and looked pretty solid), or, more recently, letting a coach sit and grow with his team (how is Denver doing?), management has routinely shaken things up just at the cusp of moving towards something positive.
This might be the first time where we have a roster and coach that looks like it can grow, learn, and win together. A superstar would be nice, and maybe the ping pong balls fall our way, but I don't think we're screwed by any means. There's promise in these kids, and I'd rather have a team playing for each other every night, because that'll make the difference when we finally reach the playoffs.
This might be the first time where we have a roster and coach that looks like it can grow, learn, and win together. A superstar would be nice, and maybe the ping pong balls fall our way, but I don't think we're screwed by any means. There's promise in these kids, and I'd rather have a team playing for each other every night, because that'll make the difference when we finally reach the playoffs.
kingsfan1984
Starter
Vivek gets waaaayyyyy to much crap. In my opinion, he should have a 15 year long leash of fan support just for saving the team, getting new arena built, and being enthusiastic about all things Kings and Sacramento. I love the guy and have eternal appreciation for him keeping our crappy team here. He has made mistakes, but im not going to kill tbe guy for wanting to be involved in the runnings of the team after opening up his wallet to the tune of a billion dollars. If it was me in his spot (and im sure a large swath of posters) i know id be the second coming of a jerry jones or al davis in regards to being involved and id never give ul control unless the league wrestled it out of my hands no matter how bad i was lol. Luckily, I tbink Vivek has improved each year and im ooptimistic he will be considered a top owner down the road.
My hopes have also shifted to the draft conspiracy theories that Viveks position at the forefront of expansion and growth in India and the massive $$$ potential there will get us a *wink wink* behind the scenes top draft pick this year regardless where we finish. This could be why its all smiles from Vlade (another connection to huge growth market) and the Kings are not tanking as hard as others...just enough so its not obvious after we move up in draft to not raise many questions. The NBA is before all else a business and the Kings being good is good for the NBA due to the international appeal. So just like CLE got 2 1sts and New Orleans shockingly won the draft to get AD the year they were up for sale, or lajers didnt get bounced frm their pick last year, the Kings will get rewarded this year.
Ive never seen any videos of those ping pong balls coming out live have you? If draft night could garner as much TV ratings as it does, you mean to tell me it wouldnt also get aome good ratings making a TV special for Ping Pong day?
Memphis Phx Orlando getting a top player this year means little to the NBA. The Kings however, that will be good for longterm business.
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HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
I would argue just the opposite. It is really not that uncommon to see really talented players unable to achieve on particular teams that i would consider unproductive. Look at the Clippers. Up until 20010 when Blake was able to play with Jordaon, Baron and a roster that was actually not half bad. But the culture had not changed, it was still a hot mess that players used as a stopping off place to show what they had.It was every guy for himself and Del Negro could not fix it. By the time Sterling realized that he had accidentally built a decent roster for the first time ever all hecould do was try to copy from the smart kid and bring in a cheap knock off of Boston's culture by bringing in Doc Rivers. To Doc's credit he has done every thing he knows how to change the culture but thus far has only been able to approximate it.funny how a winning culture can be established once you get good players that help turn around the perennial cellar dweller image you have for over a decade plus
The reason I don't see a wining culture in Clipper town despite making regular play off appearances is that they never were a real threat to see the finals despite being stacked with top talent. I love to bag on Blake for being made of glass, Jordan for being unable to shoot and Paul for flopping but these guys are all still top 5 guys in their positions and the supporting players have been great, but they never made eachother better. I joked for at least 5 seasons that every playoff season when the Clippers choked, just like the ground hog seeing his shadow-we knew that there would be 6 more week of playoffs. They just flat did not have that intangible that we call wining culture.
No team can win big without talent but good players is just not enough when the teams culture is not geared twords producing a wining team.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
See my post on the Clippers...
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Yeah, the Celtics. Would be battling the Nuggets right now if they were in the West.
Pheonix fans hate I mean hate Chriss they think he’s put the league after the rookie deal, we’ll played Vlade
Grown people trying to come up with different excuses for not to tank even when math and all the probabilities suggests that in order to get a franchise player, its CRUCIAL to be able to pick in top 3.
"But some team picked a franchise player outside of top 3"
-Yes im sure someone did but that is already included in the odds as are all the other players that have been drafted. By citing all the franchise players drafted outside of top 3 or top 5 is useless since all of them are already included in the numbers that say that its important to be in the top 3.
"But we need to build a winning culture (and all the other abstract excuses)"
-Winning culture isnt built with bad players losing games over half of the games. Teams are good when the coach is good and/or the players are good. You get a good coach and good players, you will have a winning culture since you are winning.
And to put that "winning culture" in the context of our situation:
We can either play the vets and "build the winning culture" by getting ourselves to draft at 9th or we can stop playing the vets and get ourselves drafting top 3. 100 times out of 100 the right path is to put yourself in a best possible position to get a game changing player instead of some abstract idea of building a winning culture and hope to get lucky in the draft. Its confusing that its even a debate.
"But some team picked a franchise player outside of top 3"
-Yes im sure someone did but that is already included in the odds as are all the other players that have been drafted. By citing all the franchise players drafted outside of top 3 or top 5 is useless since all of them are already included in the numbers that say that its important to be in the top 3.
"But we need to build a winning culture (and all the other abstract excuses)"
-Winning culture isnt built with bad players losing games over half of the games. Teams are good when the coach is good and/or the players are good. You get a good coach and good players, you will have a winning culture since you are winning.
And to put that "winning culture" in the context of our situation:
We can either play the vets and "build the winning culture" by getting ourselves to draft at 9th or we can stop playing the vets and get ourselves drafting top 3. 100 times out of 100 the right path is to put yourself in a best possible position to get a game changing player instead of some abstract idea of building a winning culture and hope to get lucky in the draft. Its confusing that its even a debate.
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thing about winning culture.. it's not about making playoffs, more than a half of a league makes it, it's about being champions, and once curent players and players that will come, and fans have a goal to get a ring, and anything below that does not satisfy them.. then you will understand what is winning culture 
if curent Kings players, front office and fans have a goal to make playoffs they will not be more than average team, but I am sure that Bogdan's goal is to make it all the way, that is how he was raised.
if curent Kings players, front office and fans have a goal to make playoffs they will not be more than average team, but I am sure that Bogdan's goal is to make it all the way, that is how he was raised.
upinsmoke
All-Star
We have a good thing on our hands with this squad but some are so entrenched in tanking or living off the errors of the past to see it. At least that's how I see it. We all want this team to prosper but there is no easy way out its going to be hard work and it's not going to be pretty more times than not.
Right? The kids are winning these games. You don't tell them to half ass it so we can draft someone to make up for their deficiencies.
No, some of us understand the concept of probabilities and want to add that franchise play to this squad.
Of course not but you can play the vets a lot less
Skal was out during the last game. I suspect Z-Bo who actually helps us lose (and may even understand because he took some dumb shots at the end) would have played a lot less had Skal been available.
Outside of that, the other vets were all ~20 mins or less, and most of the kids played 30+.
I mean seriously guys. I'd rather the kids get minutes with actual NBA players and learn their roles in a system than we throw out d-leaguers and let the kids develop bad habits playing 3 on 5.
Right, but for who? If Skal was rotting on the bench for 15 minutes a game while ZBO got 30, then yeah, I'd be furious. And I anticipate that once Skal gets healthy, he's going to be around 28+ MPG while ZBO gets 15-20 on the game he plays. I guess you could argue for Bruno minutes, but I think it's pretty clear that the trade was just a cap move and to free up a roster spot this off-season. I'd be down for more Jakkar minutes, but he's a pretty significant upgrade to ZBO in terms of contributing to winning basketball, so does that help the tank? And he's a fringe guy at this point anyway, not someone I'm overtly concerned about.
But for the most part, Fox, Bogdan, Buddy, Jackson, WCS, Skal (when healthy), Mason (when healthy) have been the feature guys the last month and a half. You could argue that should have been the whole season, but those are the dudes who should be getting minutes. I'd never get behind sitting any of those 7 to "help" lose games.
Gliesian
Bench
So half the board is excited about the development of the youngsters and don't want to infringe on that with a deliberate tank job.
The other half don't think we have enough talent to win a championship and want the deliberate tank job.
That about right?
So I guess it comes down to, what's important. Enjoying basketball or winning a championship?
For me, it's all or nothing. I would rather have 4 years of tanking and a higher chance of a ring over 5 years of fantastic bball and a medium chance. There's no right or wrong here, just what floats your boat
The other half don't think we have enough talent to win a championship and want the deliberate tank job.
That about right?
So I guess it comes down to, what's important. Enjoying basketball or winning a championship?
For me, it's all or nothing. I would rather have 4 years of tanking and a higher chance of a ring over 5 years of fantastic bball and a medium chance. There's no right or wrong here, just what floats your boat
You are creating a false ultimatum here. Be whatever kind of fan you want, but viewing the whole exchange as a "100-or-0" proposition strikes me as a suboptimal way to consume sports-as-entertainment. If one thinks that anything other than competing for a championship is pointless, it might be better for one's mental health to just go ahead and root for the actual champions.thing about winning culture.. it's not about making playoffs, more than a half of a league makes it, it's about being champions, and once curent players and players that will come, and fans have a goal to get a ring, and anything below that does not satisfy them.. then you will understand what is winning culture
Toronto doesn't have a superstar, and they've never been to the Finals, but I don't know how a reasonable person could argue that they haven't built a winning culture?
Shut down Kosta, Temple, Carter, Zbo or at least sit most of them every game and bring in fliers from dleague or europe and see if something sticks. Play Bruno more see if he has any value ect.
These young players wont develope bad habits if instead of Kosta we have a young defencive oriented center or a young possible role playing 3d player sitting in the corner instead of VC or Temple. Thats just another abstract excuse to play vets and any possible benefits that playing vets brings, the benefits are bigger if our draft position moves from 9th to top 4.
The idea is to make the games and minutes meaningful so they can grow. I really don't think you do that having them play a season of garbage time, which is basically what you're suggesting.
I dont think its meaningless if we structure our offence in a way that vets are gone and young guys can step up in a bit larger roles. I think its meaningful as long as the young guys are level headed guys and the coach is good and has the ability to keep the young guys playing hard. Again, this is all just abstract and the main goal is to get the concrete franchise changing player
So you want to run a 9-man rotation the rest of the season? Can't just shut down players and bring in replacement guys, you have to have the roster spots open. Let's add Iman and Giles to the list too since both guys are going to be out for the season. Doubt Iman plays again, even if healthy. That leaves:
Fox || Mason
Bogdan || Buddy
JJ || Bruno
Skal || Jakkar?
WCS || D-League scrub? Cooley?
Since Kosta, Temple, ZBO, Iman all have PO or are signed for next season, we can't just cut them. Carter I suppose you could feasibly cut to free up one extra roster spot. So that'd give us 2 roster spots to go get D-League spots.
I started this post disagreeing with you, but actually got convinced that this is viable. 10-man rotation to close down the year and keep Temple or Koufos/ZBO active just incase of emergency. Alright, I'm in, I'd rather see this than keep playing the vets.
No one on this board has ever said that the young players need to half ass it. 100% of the talk has been about the vets.
ZBo put up 22, 9 and 4 in the Heat game. People think the kids won it and they did in the end with some clutch plays but the Kings lose that game easily if ZBo doesn't have his way with the injury riddled Heat.
ZBo didn't win us the game. I wish Skal could have gotten his minutes, he wasn't available.
Sheesh just a week ago it was Cooley that balled and everyone was upset that some d-leaguer was trying to play his way into the league and didn't understand the process.
In my ideal world we are in every game to the last shot but the balls bounce out and don't hurt our picks. But barring that scenario, I'll take the wins rather than blowout losses.
Sheesh just a week ago it was Cooley that balled and everyone was upset that some d-leaguer was trying to play his way into the league and didn't understand the process.
In my ideal world we are in every game to the last shot but the balls bounce out and don't hurt our picks. But barring that scenario, I'll take the wins rather than blowout losses.
The real question is that are you prepared to play the vets in order to keep the games close and at the same time most likely sacrifising our draft pick and decreasing the odds to land a franchise player? In a perfect world we could get both: close games for the fans and the young guys plus a position where drafting a franchise guy wouldnt be just an anomaly. But unfortunately in reality you need to choose one
At the very, very, very least, I'd be way more entertained with Jack Cooley balling out and us winning a game rather than ZBO balling out and winning us a game.
As much as I would prefer the better draft odds, I don't think there's anything the coach or players could do differently this year to ensure that outcome. We're winning games because the quality of opponent we're facing at this point in the season is not all that great, a lot of the games are at home, and the few good teams we've played have had injuries to their main guys. Seems like the same thing happens every year but again, there's not much we can do about that. Basically cheating by losing on purpose no matter how badly the other team plays is not something I could ever endorse. It may be logical but it's also unsportsmanlike and disgraceful.
If Luka Doncic ends up in Sacramento somehow I'll join you on the draft conspiracy side of the table. It seems thoroughly improbable that we would get him and also such a perfect fit for the type of unselfish team ball that Joerger wants to play that I might be persuaded to believe there are other influences at work besides just random chance. That's a big 'if' though.
If Luka Doncic ends up in Sacramento somehow I'll join you on the draft conspiracy side of the table. It seems thoroughly improbable that we would get him and also such a perfect fit for the type of unselfish team ball that Joerger wants to play that I might be persuaded to believe there are other influences at work besides just random chance. That's a big 'if' though.
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There is something we can do: play a lot less vets. The same thing that many other teams do. We play Zbo, KK, Vc and Temple when other teams play a lot of dleague guys instead of their best vets.
allrightythen
Starter
There are consequences to shutting down the Vets for the rest of the year. The NBA will not just look the other way if half of our roster is simply benched for the final 13 games of the season. If you think it's hard to get FAs now (we already have to overpay) just watch what happens if we decide to bench all the vets we have when some of them have FA hopes in the coming off-season.
You'd really think the vets were just eating up the minutes here.
Also, I think KK and Temple will be here and contribute next year if we are actually trying to win games, which we should be, since ya know, we don't control our pick in 2019.
Also, I think KK and Temple will be here and contribute next year if we are actually trying to win games, which we should be, since ya know, we don't control our pick in 2019.
kingsfan1984
Starter
There are? I have yet to ever see any consequences for this and would imagine a stern warning would have been announced already if this was true so everyone knows what the potential penalty would be. This is also not first year of tank races and nothing has been done in past so whats different now?
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