Winning culture (split from game thread)

[The Effort Police]

Andriod, I was on your side of this argument earlier this year but I gave it up because some people just simply don't care about having better odds and no matter how much you break it down, they aren't going to change their minds. This argument has already been gone through on here multiple times. It's always just kind of the same thing.

Kawhi was picked 15th. Draymond 2nd round. IT the last pick. Hassan Whiteside improved. Let the chips fall where they may. It's up to the basketball gods. Winning culture needs to be developed or else they will become perennial losers. Need to learn how to win the right way etc etc

Some of us want to win through logic and strategy and others would rather just watch and enjoy it in the now. I get where they're coming from because obviously we can't change a thing no matter how much we talk about it or how irritated we get. So in theory we should just be able to sit back and enjoy what was actually a very entertaining game against the Heat and be happy about the win because being unhappy about it doesn't change the outcome at all. Some people are perfectly ok with that. Me personally, I can't do it. Sounds like you can't and I know there's a handful of others on here that can't do it either.

To me that's like watching your home go up in flames and being like "Well I can't do anything about it now so let me just enjoy the cool explosions".

I won't go as far to say burst up in flames, but I get what you're saying.

I think we're locked into a path of mediocrity, sorta like Charlotte or Detroit have been the last several years. I'd feel that way even if they embraced tanking and got a really high pick, but I'd feel better about the odds in that situation. Trade our situation for any other young/rebuilding team's situation (sans Memphis) and I feel there would still be talk about how bright a future we have. I feel that all it would take is one or two notable young players, which near every rebuilding team has. Comparing to other young teams, our current core is middle of the pack and our FO and pick situation is clearly among the worst.

Be bad this year but not bad enough, be bad next year and give up a pick in the 5-8 range, and then get on the treadmill from 2019-20 on and pick 10-13 for an eternity. That's what I'm predicting.

 

[Kingster]

Both of the teams mentioned are going to either miss or get swept in the playoffs. Bringing us to Miami they have the same coach and gm but what’s so different about this team compared to the ones that won titles?

Obviously, as my last post just implied, talent. That doesn't mean culture isn't important though. The old Mavs with Jason Kidd, Jackson and Mashburn had talent, zippo chemistry though, which ironically enough ended in being blown to smithereens. The old Portland Jail Blazers had a lot of talent that imploded because the lack of character and chemistry on their team. In short, it's necessary to have uber talent to win the championship, but don't fool yourself that uber talent without the right chemistry/culture is going to bring you a championship. You have to have both.

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

I won't go as far to say burst up in flames, but I get what you're saying.

I think we're locked into a path of mediocrity, sorta like Charlotte or Detroit have been the last several years. I'd feel that way even if they embraced tanking and got a really high pick, but I'd feel better about the odds in that situation. Trade our situation for any other young/rebuilding team's situation (sans Memphis) and I feel there would be talk about how bright a future we have. I feel that all it would take is one or two notable young players, which near every rebuilding team has. Comparing to other young teams, our current core is middle of the pack and our FO and pick situation is clearly among the worst.

Be bad this year but not bad enough, be bad next year and give up a pick in the 5-8 range, and then get on the treadmill from 2019-20 on and pick 10-13 for an eternity. That's what I'm predicting.

I truly believe what you said that what makes me so angry. It’s as if we haven’t learned from the mistakes we made. I know there were different GMs and owners involved but the history is clear, this current path we are on won’t lead us past the 10th seed. We currently have the 3rd worst offensive rating and the 2nd worst defensive rating, I was hoping that someone would send a memo over to Vlade or Vivek and say, “hey we probably have our best chance to add meaningful talent this season and most likely won’t get a shot a top pick of our youth develops, maybe we should bring up Sampson and Cooley for the next 15 or some games and let the vets take an early break.” But they continue to start games, hit huge shots and even though the young guys are clutch, we are put in thos positions on the backs of guys like ZBo.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

I would love to have a top 3 pick, but every tank commander talks like tanking happens in a vacuum as if its simply a simulated video game 2K season. There are consequnces for tanking. People point to the Sixers like Hinkie still has a job. He does not. Nor does Mitch Kupchak.

I have issues with Morey’s vision of basketball, but someone please tell me how many times the Rockets have tanked under him.

We’re not chasing mediocrity here anymore—we have a clean cap and lots of young talent. We made a good faith effort to build a winner around Boogie; that did not work and we pivoted.

 

[mac]

We are not the Warriors.

What vision does his team have? Was trading 2 pick swaps and an unprotected 1st round pick for cap space a good move for the future? Does trading a young star player and saying we are committed to a rebuild only to sign 3 vets on a team that already had 2 leaders scream like a plan to you ? After doing all those idiotic things we still had a chance to redeem ourselves and get a real game changer in the top 3 picks but we decided we wanted to keep both Kofus and ZBo at the expense of a lottery pick from a year ago. For what ?

Neither were the Warriors before they were the current Warriors.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I would love to have a top 3 pick, but every tank commander talks like tanking happens in a vacuum as if its simply a simulated video game 2K season. There are consequnces for tanking. People point to the Sixers like Hinkie still has a job. He does not. Nor does Mitch Kupchak.

I have issues with Morey’s vision of basketball, but someone please tell me how many times the Rockets have tanked under him.

We’re not chasing mediocrity here anymore—we have a clean cap and lots of young talent. We made a good faith effort to build a winner around Boogie; that did not work and we pivoted.

People need to separate the last few years from the past. And even this year from Vlade's first year and a half where we were trying to win with a top flight talent.

It's hard to do because we were inept for so long - first the Maloofs failed to realize we needed to rebuild and tried to hang on for too long - this started a parade of coaches in and out the door, which lead to players coming in and out and no consistency. Then we finally got a few building blocks but the Maloofs having bungled everything NBA and business related threw in the towel on the city and the team and actively sabotaged us when we could have rebuilt the team. This is fairly unique because in the 2-3 seasons after Reke and Boogie we could have easily built a championship squad just on our draft picks.

When they sold, our owner (as can be expected) overreached, and unfortunately also hired a lousy front office. That set us back 3 more seasons and ruined our window with Boogie.

ALL OF THAT IS PAST HISTORY

Yes, the team is better than they are supposed to be right now (though still "bad"). You can call that "mismanagement" or you can call that managing early results and hoping the team can build upon them. Let's acknowledge that we actually have the best coaching situation we've had since Adelman left and a stable front office even if it is still learning. There's a vision even if some of you refuse to acknowledge it while dwelling on the mistakes of their predecessors. Vlade asked us to be judged at the end of next season and said he'd leave if we hadn't turned a corner. That is one of the most honest assessments any GM will give so why not just honor that?

And besides, if the guys we drafted to be the cornerstones of the franchise are still junk in 2019 and we stink maybe we are better off sitting out the draft one year.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Still waiting for someone prove to me that winning culture is real. What happened to the Grizzlies winning culture? I mean they won a lot of games the last couple of years why isn’t winning culture out there hitting threes or blocking shots, did he get traded?

If you're going to continue to demand "proof" of the existence of a winning culture, then the burden falls on you to properly articulate exactly what you will accept as the standard of "proof." Because, so far, this thread has been full of people providing examples, and you blowing them off with a "That's not what I'm talking about", or a "Well, the Kings can't do that, so it doesn't count."

Be specific; by not clearly defining your terms, you are deliberately creating wiggle room to allow you to dismiss any counter-argument with, "I didn't mean that." Well, we can't know what you mean, unless you say what you mean. This is also known as arguing in bad faith. Please stop being vague.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Neither were the Warriors before they were the current Warriors.

There's also this.

 

[hrdboild]

I would love to have a top 3 pick, but every tank commander talks like tanking happens in a vacuum as if its simply a simulated video game 2K season. There are consequnces for tanking. People point to the Sixers like Hinkie still has a job. He does not. Nor does Mitch Kupchak.

I have issues with Morey’s vision of basketball, but someone please tell me how many times the Rockets have tanked under him.

We’re not chasing mediocrity here anymore—we have a clean cap and lots of young talent. We made a good faith effort to build a winner around Boogie; that did not work and we pivoted.

Who cares if Hinkie has a job anymore? That team is in the playoffs. That's a win for the fans. Embiid and Simmons are two of the most exciting young players in the league. Even Lebron has them on his radar now. That doesn't happen without the draft picks. Yes there's still luck involved. Embiid getting injured so badly that everyone's consensus #1 pick that year fell to #3 was luck. Winning the #1 pick to get Ben Simmons was lucky. We've been in similar positions and the ping pong balls bounced a different way. But none of that is a counter argument for tanking. What Hinkie did is the argument for tanking because it clearly worked. Mitch Kupchak got fired for other reasons that more to do with inter-office politics.

There is an argument to be made against tanking though and the argument is us. We've been bad for over a decade. During that time we've had hundreds of ping pong balls and got our numbers pulled once, for the #3 pick last year. The losing culture doesn't come from throwing in the towel for 2 months with players who are likely to be gone in a couple years anyway. The losing culture comes from expecting the lottery to help you when in reality it's always going to be luck. So Cleveland sucks for 4 years and during that time they manage to put together 5 top 3 picks including three #1 overall picks. We suck for 12 years and get nothing. Them's the breaks. And the danger is while you're out there trying to land those #1 picks every year you're actively holding the team back in purgatory waiting for a lottery ticket that might not ever come.

The alternative is to create your own luck like Golden State did by landing some gems in the mid to late lottery or the second round, making a few smart trades, and then cashing in on the buzz your young playoff team generates to land a marquee free agent or two. If that's a model every team could follow though we'd have a much more competitive league. You also need to get lucky enough to have 6 other teams pass on a future MVP. So the question then becomes, how do you transition from a losing culture to a winning one?

Well we've done it before. It involved Geoff Petrie, Rick Adelman, Chris Webber, Vlade Divac, Jason Williams, Peja Stojakovic, Mike Bibby, Doug Christie and others. The 49ers seem to be on their way this year to creating that same magic. You get a GM and a coach who work well together in identifying talent and utilizing their skills. Then you need to get a marquee top of the line talent and surround them with guys who work hard and perform their small piece of the puzzle well. That doesn't have to be from the lottery and it doesn't have to be from the #1 pick (San Antonio got Kawhi Leonard with a #15 pick, Milwaukee got Giannis Antetokounmpo with a #15 pick, the Niners got Jimmy Garoppolo in a trade for a second round pick, Geoff Petrie got Chris Webber in a trade for 32 year old 6-time All Star Mitch Richmond) but you do need to get that guy somehow.

The way I see it, it doesn't hurt us in any way to lose the rest of our games and go into a very good draft with a good shot at a top 5 pick. You don't create a "losing culture" in 2 months. On the other hand, It might not hurt us all that much to win a half dozen more and pick 8th or 9th either. That's all down to luck. And whether you want to root for wins or losses, it shouldn't matter to you what other fans root for because none of that actually impacts the team. The winning culture will come with the talent as they learn how to win together. There's really no sense fretting over it, that's the easier part. You just get players who are so good that they can't help but win and the rest comes easy.

 

[VF21]

I would love to have a top 3 pick, but every tank commander talks like tanking happens in a vacuum as if its simply a simulated video game 2K season. There are consequnces for tanking. People point to the Sixers like Hinkie still has a job. He does not. Nor does Mitch Kupchak.

I have issues with Morey’s vision of basketball, but someone please tell me how many times the Rockets have tanked under him.

We’re not chasing mediocrity here anymore—we have a clean cap and lots of young talent. We made a good faith effort to build a winner around Boogie; that did not work and we pivoted.

I liked this so much I had to do more than simply hit the "like" button.

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

I would love to have a top 3 pick, but every tank commander talks like tanking happens in a vacuum as if its simply a simulated video game 2K season. There are consequnces for tanking. People point to the Sixers like Hinkie still has a job. He does not. Nor does Mitch Kupchak.

I have issues with Morey’s vision of basketball, but someone please tell me how many times the Rockets have tanked under him.

We’re not chasing mediocrity here anymore—we have a clean cap and lots of young talent. We made a good faith effort to build a winner around Boogie; that did not work and we pivoted.

It doesn’t matter if those GMs don’t have jobs, they made their teams better, If the end result is Vlade getting fired and we get a top talent in the draft, then sign me up.

I would disagree about chasing mediocrity, signing Hill, ZBo Carter, give them major minutes as the season winds down , ending up picking 7th, draft another bust = chasing mediocrity. Once again we statistically are aligned with the Grizzlies and the Suns but we won’t have a top 3 pick, that’s not chasing mediocrity?

 

[hrdboild]

Andriod, I was on your side of this argument earlier this year but I gave it up because some people just simply don't care about having better odds and no matter how much you break it down, they aren't going to change their minds. This argument has already been gone through on here multiple times. It's always just kind of the same thing.

Kawhi was picked 15th. Draymond 2nd round. IT the last pick. Hassan Whiteside improved. Let the chips fall where they may. It's up to the basketball gods. Winning culture needs to be developed or else they will become perennial losers. Need to learn how to win the right way etc etc

Some of us want to win through logic and strategy and others would rather just watch and enjoy it in the now. I get where they're coming from because obviously we can't change a thing no matter how much we talk about it or how irritated we get. So in theory we should just be able to sit back and enjoy what was actually a very entertaining game against the Heat and be happy about the win because being unhappy about it doesn't change the outcome at all. Some people are perfectly ok with that. Me personally, I can't do it. Sounds like you can't and I know there's a handful of others on here that can't do it either.

To me that's like watching your home go up in flames and being like "Well I can't do anything about it now so let me just enjoy the cool explosions".

I agree with most of what you're saying here but I'm not sure you chose the best analogy. I think it's more like watching someone's house go up in flames on TV. It's too far away from you to do anything about it. You could call the fire department but it's on TV already so there's nothing you can tell them that they don't already know. The homeowners are probably just as horrified as you are but there's not much they can do at this point either. It sure would be nice if that didn't happen but now that it has happened, well, stressing out about it is pretty much just hurting yourself for no reason. Better to turn off the TV and let the fire department handle it. If you absolutely positively can't look away... well at least fire is beautiful on camera I guess? You can still find something enjoyable in disaster if you look for it. In the case of the Kings, we may be actively sabotaging our own future but that doesn't mean young kids playing their hearts out and having fun while they do it is a bad thing. De'Aaron Fox is already showing himself to be a guy you want to give the ball to with the game on the line. In the long run that might be better for us than picking 5 spots higher this year.

Yeah I know it hurts to watch Luka Doncic or DeAndre Ayton slip away but truth is they were always going to be longshots regardless of how many games we lose because of the way the lottery works. If it's 25% odds or 5% odds it's still more likely than not that they end up somewhere else. Either it will happen or it won't and the rest of this basically amounts to a glass half empty or glass half full situation. I've argued for the logic of better odds before but you know what? I'm beginning to see the logic in the "glass half full" viewpoint as well. Reality is always going to be reality but perception is everything and that's all up to you and what's going on between your ears. So much of what we think of as reality is actually just our own subjective interpretation of sensory experience. That's what I believe anyway. So why contribute to your own unhappiness? Could be that's the least logical choice of all.

Or not. I'm just throwing words together. I will say this though, based on my own experience: "Just... Be happy" sounds like childishly lame advice when you're depressed but it's not really much more complicated than that. Realizing that you are the source of your own unhappiness is one of the hardest lessons life has to teach us.

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

If you're going to continue to demand "proof" of the existence of a winning culture, then the burden falls on you to properly articulate exactly what you will accept as the standard of "proof." Because, so far, this thread has been full of people providing examples, and you blowing them off with a "That's not what I'm talking about", or a "Well, the Kings can't do that, so it doesn't count."

Be specific; by not clearly defining your terms, you are deliberately creating wiggle room to allow you to dismiss any counter-argument with, "I didn't mean that." Well, we can't know what you mean, unless you say what you mean. This is also known as arguing in bad faith. Please stop being vague.

That’s the problem, I don’t think winning culture exists.

Sixers = years of terrible basketball, always losing, they are winning now because they have good players.

Timberwolves = years of Kings level ineptitude, get a couple of good players, suddenly they are winners.

Grizzlies = years of playoff experience, suddenly this all amazing winning culture is no were to be found.

It’s a myth, and you know how I know, this winning culture nonsense comes up every couple of years with this team when we ruin our draft position.

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

 

[pdxKingsFan]

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

Mike Malone - undoubtedly was. Got canned and set us back immeasurably.

Karl - mmmm, lots of debate on that one.

Joerger - seems to be, yes.

Again a lot of the "winning culture" tends to be letting a coach/gm stick around without getting impatient and build something. You can't build overnight unless you get a LeBron or Duncan or Shaq. Neither Ayton or Doncic is that level guy. One of them is statistically likely to be a disappointment too, since the last time that both picks 1 & 2 became game changers in the same draft was 1992 when Shaq and Zo went 1-2.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That’s the problem, I don’t think winning culture exists.

Sixers = years of terrible basketball, always losing, they are winning now because they have good players.

Timberwolves = years of Kings level ineptitude, get a couple of good players, suddenly they are winners.

Grizzlies = years of playoff experience, suddenly this all amazing winning culture is no were to be found.

It’s a myth, and you know how I know, this winning culture nonsense comes up every couple of years with this team when we ruin our draft position.

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

I see. So, loosely translated: I'm going to declare something as "unprovable," and then refuse to articulate what I would accept as proof, so that I can continue to insist that it is unprovable.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Mike Malone - undoubtedly was. Got canned and set us back immeasurably.

Karl - mmmm, lots of debate on that one.

Joerger - seems to be, yes.

Again a lot of the "winning culture" tends to be letting a coach/gm stick around without getting impatient and build something. You can't build overnight unless you get a LeBron or Duncan or Shaq. Neither Ayton or Doncic is that level guy. One of them is statistically likely to be a disappointment too, since the last time that both picks 1 & 2 became game changers in the same draft was 1992 when Shaq and Zo went 1-2.

Did anyone not named Grant Napear actually fix their mouth to say that George Karl was creating a winning culture in Sacramento?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Did anyone not named Grant Napear actually fix their mouth to say that George Karl was creating a winning culture in Sacramento?

Apparently our good friend AK is saying so retroactively as proof there's no such thing.

In all seriousness, as soon as Karl made it clear that he was at odds with Boogie I'm going to say 90% of the Kings fan base turned on him.

 

[VF21]

That’s the problem, I don’t think winning culture exists.

Sixers = years of terrible basketball, always losing, they are winning now because they have good players.

Timberwolves = years of Kings level ineptitude, get a couple of good players, suddenly they are winners.

Grizzlies = years of playoff experience, suddenly this all amazing winning culture is no were to be found.

It’s a myth, and you know how I know, this winning culture nonsense comes up every couple of years with this team when we ruin our draft position.

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

Response A: I'll take "Posts that make your head explode" for $1,000...

Response B: So because you can't grok it, it's a myth? Okay. Got it.

Response C:

 

[hrdboild]

That’s the problem, I don’t think winning culture exists.

Sixers = years of terrible basketball, always losing, they are winning now because they have good players.

Timberwolves = years of Kings level ineptitude, get a couple of good players, suddenly they are winners.

Grizzlies = years of playoff experience, suddenly this all amazing winning culture is no were to be found.

It’s a myth, and you know how I know, this winning culture nonsense comes up every couple of years with this team when we ruin our draft position.

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

The TWolves also upgraded their coach -- though Thibs has become notorious for running his players into the ground so that may ultimately come back and bite them. Basically I agree with you though -- winning culture, such as it is, comes when teams start winning together and that generally has more to do with talent than anything else. A lot of weird things happen at the end of a season though. Flukey injuries, guys getting rest, DLeague callups trying to earn a roster spot for next year, guys who've sat on the bench all year finally getting their chance to break through. It's not reliable data to predict anything by. We've already played the Warriors without Steph and KD and now we're getting them without Steph and Klay. Does winning that game actually mean anything toward our future? Probably not.

And yet... so what? We've been down this road so many times already I've come to the conclusion that (A) It's not really worth worrying about. Its Vlade's problem until it becomes someone else's problem and (B) It's really not worth arguing about. If some beleaguered Kings fans want to enjoy a rare win however it comes, good for them! We're all in this together and everyone is frustrated that it's taking so long but don't take it out on your friends!

I've written pretty much the exact same argument as you have in the past. You can take this or leave it but think of this as the you from the future reaching back a few years and giving you some friendly advice: just let it go. Seriously. If it helps have that drink VF21 offered you. We can all agree that a #1 pick would help this team a lot but that's not up to us. There are plenty of better things to argue about.

 

[Joshoua]

Also is this where the Vlade hate is?

That man needs an extension for not taking that bum Marquell Chriss Chriss is ***** made and is bad for the culture of the team. Even if it was Skal for Chriss I’d love it let alone grabbing Bogdan as well

 

[VF21]

Also is this where the Vlade hate is?

That man needs an extension for not taking that bum Marquell Chriss Chriss is ***** made and is bad for the culture of the team. Even if it was Skal for Chriss I’d love it let alone grabbing Bogdan as well

No, that goes HERE .

 

[Joshoua]

Look I love Hinke as much as the next guy but damn if Embiid was healthy he goes to Cleveland they have a dynasty and this praise he gets would turn to crap. There’s a lot of luck involved even GSW too

 

[mac]

Apparently our good friend AK is saying so retroactively as proof there's no such thing.

In all seriousness, as soon as Karl made it clear that he was at odds with Boogie I'm going to say 90% of the Kings fan base turned on him.

Funnily enough, Karl does lend credit to Android's argument, since we won the most games under him. Personally I think winning culture is what makes role players play better. Stars will be stars wherever they go, but impactful glue guys are only ever found on winning teams, and on other teams suddenly appear less valuable. I remember a Spurs game few years back with 2 or 3 of their main players out against the then champion Heat, and they almost won.

 

[whozit]

That’s the problem, I don’t think winning culture exists.

Sixers = years of terrible basketball, always losing, they are winning now because they have good players.

Timberwolves = years of Kings level ineptitude, get a couple of good players, suddenly they are winners.

Grizzlies = years of playoff experience, suddenly this all amazing winning culture is no were to be found.

It’s a myth, and you know how I know, this winning culture nonsense comes up every couple of years with this team when we ruin our draft position.

“Er Mike Malone is establishing a winning culture.. George Karl is establishing a winning culture... now Joerger is establishing a winning culture...”

Would you be more happy if instead of "winning culture" they named it the 'never say die' or 'never quit or surrender' culture or more appropriately mentality?

I would much rather watch a bunch of underdogs fighting and clawing their way to the end than a bunch of premidonnas going thru the motions. With very few exceptions these youngsters fight to the end despite being underdogs.

What the Kings need is the whole being greater than the individual parts by themselves summed up. And I think that is what they are working on irregargless of what they call it.

 

[Houdini]

my two cents on winning culture..

if you have young players and want to develop them properly you can not think about tanking one second. you have to put them in their heads that it is all about winning and that every time they step on the floor, they think about beating opponent..

young players do not have a switch in their heads and then they will lose for a certain amount of time, and then over night somebody will flip a switch and these players will do everything they can to win it.

you like Bogdan is ice cold in clutch, but he wouldn't be like this if he was not playing to win since he was a kid.. imagine whole season Joerger says to whole team, let's go there and lose, and every night like that.. do you think next year he can say ok, now lets win, and everyone on team changes mentality just like that.. that does not happen.

also Philla, they were tanking for like a 5 years, and now in 6th they finally went to PO, on a very weak East.. and only because they were lucky to get good character in Embiid, character that wants to win, and his energy is pushing them now.. otherwise they could have plenty of Fultz's, Simonnse's, Okafor's and so on, nothing would change..

Franchise changers you get on draft are super rare, in NBA today you build champions through winning, making a team and creating a good atmosphere, and then offering all that to a Superstar FA and try to sign him..

Kings need to have mentality that every match it is all about winning and when they step on that court to do all it takes to win.. winning and a team basketball.. and once they have that, it will be easier to get FA..

 

[kingsboi]

funny how a winning culture can be established once you get good players that help turn around the perennial cellar dweller image you have for over a decade plus

 

[CelticsFan]

Is there a playoff team that doesn't happen to have a winning culture or is it when you make the playoffs then you have a winning culture

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Funnily enough, Karl does lend credit to Android's argument, since we won the most games under him. Personally I think winning culture is what makes role players play better. Stars will be stars wherever they go, but impactful glue guys are only ever found on winning teams, and on other teams suddenly appear less valuable. I remember a Spurs game few years back with 2 or 3 of their main players out against the then champion Heat, and they almost won.

Karl probably had the best roster and made an absolute mess of it. Malone was doing great until Boogie went out for a spell and the weasels took their opportunity to can him.

 

[mac]

Karl probably had the best roster and made an absolute mess of it. Malone was doing great until Boogie went out for a spell and the weasels took their opportunity to can him.

I wouldn't say he made a mess of it, because all the guys were actually having pretty good years overall (EXCEPT YOU MARCO BELINELLI). I'd say he handled Boogie the wrong way, but I'm not one of those that think saying nobody on a <30 win team is untradeable is ludicrous. Within a year the narrative on Cousins playing on the perimeter shifted so much from bad to good. I personally put the blame on the FO/ the players for quitting, in the sense that you knew what you were getting with Karl. Kinda similar argument that Hrdboild uses for Hill this season. But let's not beat the dead horse any further.

Applying this case back to the topic, it again shows that stars are gonna be stars. Talent will produce, regardless. As I said, Rondo/Cousins/Gay all had pretty good years (maybe Gay less so). But it's the role players that benefit the most from a good culture, when there's no toxic environment, when guys play for one another, when star players make the role players better. Put all that together, we had a team that won the most games in a decade (due to talent), but at the same time could be described as underachieving (due to culture).

 

[Spike]

They lost the coach that built it!

We should get that guy.