Winning culture (split from game thread)

#1
Can someone actually provide me some proof of what winning culture is? Have teams that won a bunch of close games been able to carry that over next year? Have teams that went on winning more games towards the end of the season went on to have better season next year? How is that we only talk about winning culture only when we beat other subpar teams or teams that have a ton of injuries?

Or is winning culture having a guy like Westbrook or LeBron or Towns or Simmons or Durant or Harden or Beal or Irving or Davis or Lillard ?
 
#2
Can someone actually provide me some proof of what winning culture is? Have teams that won a bunch of close games been able to carry that over next year? Have teams that went on winning more games towards the end of the season went on to have better season next year? How is that we only talk about winning culture only when we beat other subpar teams or teams that have a ton of injuries?

Or is winning culture having a guy like Westbrook or LeBron or Towns or Simmons or Durant or Harden or Beal or Irving or Davis or Lillard ?
KG never was a winning player until he got to the Celtics. Does anyone think that the Celtics culture turned him into a winner or do you think the talent around him turned him into a winner?

Philly is going to be a playoff team this year and they have done nothing but tank the past handful of seasons. What did Brett Brown or the Philly organization do to build winning culture?

Having good players is the only thing that can change a "losing culture" into a "winning culture"
 
#3
Can someone actually provide me some proof of what winning culture is? Have teams that won a bunch of close games been able to carry that over next year? Have teams that went on winning more games towards the end of the season went on to have better season next year? How is that we only talk about winning culture only when we beat other subpar teams or teams that have a ton of injuries?

Or is winning culture having a guy like Westbrook or LeBron or Towns or Simmons or Durant or Harden or Beal or Irving or Davis or Lillard ?
This probably merits it's own thread and I've thought about posting it before and stopped but here goes.

If you've ever played on a super competitive winning team, like one that wins trophies, gets peer recognition, and can go 20-1 losing the championship game and feeling like a whole season was wasted and have also played on a fun team, that goes 2-18, is never close in any game but just has fun, you'd probably understand. You go out after the game, you meet girls, have a few drinks, hell maybe you have drinks pre-game. It's a social outing.

Extrapolate that into the highest level, you have teams for which winning the championship is the only thing and then you have teams where collecting a pay check and living the lifestyle is acceptable. Often times this is lead by a mega-talented player who gets drafted to a suck forever team and squanders their talent. It's why the NBA had to adopt bootcamps for their young players on how not to ruin their careers in the late 90s. But as long as late teens and early 20 somethings suddenly find themselves multi-millionaires and have dozens of "friends" pushing them for their cut, this is a temptation that ruins many a talented young man.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#4
Can someone actually provide me some proof of what winning culture is? Have teams that won a bunch of close games been able to carry that over next year? Have teams that went on winning more games towards the end of the season went on to have better season next year? How is that we only talk about winning culture only when we beat other subpar teams or teams that have a ton of injuries?

Or is winning culture having a guy like Westbrook or LeBron or Towns or Simmons or Durant or Harden or Beal or Irving or Davis or Lillard ?
Actually, Miami is a perfect example of winning culture. They aren't very talented and they are going to the playoffs. San Antonio also comes to mind; they don't have their super star and they win with over-the-hill vets, one good All Star, and a bunch of guys who are 8-12 on the roster with other teams. You can get to the playoffs without a huge amount of talent; it's what happens after you get to the playoffs that separates the well coached mediocre-talented team from the uber talented team.
 
#5
It's funny when Lillard comes up because that's a guy five teams including us passed over.

Durant is mentioned of course while Steph and the other guys that built that franchise conveniently ignored :rolleyes:

A lot of this comes down to once you get in the league are you willing to put in the work to get to the next level.
 
#6
This probably merits it's own thread and I've thought about posting it before and stopped but here goes.

If you've ever played on a super competitive winning team, like one that wins trophies, gets peer recognition, and can go 20-1 losing the championship game and feeling like a whole season was wasted and have also played on a fun team, that goes 2-18, is never close in any game but just has fun, you'd probably understand. You go out after the game, you meet girls, have a few drinks, hell maybe you have drinks pre-game. It's a social outing.

Extrapolate that into the highest level, you have teams for which winning the championship is the only thing and then you have teams where collecting a pay check and living the lifestyle is acceptable. Often times this is lead by a mega-talented player who gets drafted to a suck forever team and squanders their talent. It's why the NBA had to adopt bootcamps for their young players on how not to ruin their careers in the late 90s. But as long as late teens and early 20 somethings suddenly find themselves multi-millionaires and have dozens of "friends" pushing them for their cut, this is a temptation that ruins many a talented young man.
That’s the issue, we don’t have a winning culture, and won’t ever have a winning culture with the current make up of this team, somehow the constant losing for Philly seem to have went away not because they won a couple of games because they drafted 2 potential superstars. It’s a fallacy that fans believe because it makes them feel better, if someone could provide me with some data, showing how these wins will help us in the future I’ll shut my mouth and cheer on. Yet the only data that i have seen majority of the star players in the history of the nba were drafts with high lottery picks, you get high lottery picks by sucking, teams suck by playing young players and benching 37 old vets.
 
#7
Actually, Miami is a perfect example of winning culture. They aren't very talented and they are going to the playoffs. San Antonio also comes to mind; they don't have their super star and they win with over-the-hill vets, one good All Star, and a bunch of guys who are 8-12 on the roster with other teams. You can get to the playoffs without a huge amount of talent; it's what happens after you get to the playoffs that separates the well coached mediocre-talented team from the uber talented team.
Both of the teams mentioned are going to either miss or get swept in the playoffs. Bringing us to Miami they have the same coach and gm but what’s so different about this team compared to the ones that won titles?
 
#8
It's funny when Lillard comes up because that's a guy five teams including us passed over.

Durant is mentioned of course while Steph and the other guys that built that franchise conveniently ignored :rolleyes:

A lot of this comes down to once you get in the league are you willing to put in the work to get to the next level.
Sure tell me how many super stars in this league were drafted 7th overall, now compare that to how many were drafted in the top 2 or 3. Has Vlade shown any ability to find us a star player yet? Why is it that we are constantly one of those teams that passes on players?
 
#9
Your 2015 GSW core young talent

Steph - picked 7th after Kings drafted Tyreke 4th
Klay Thompson - Picked 11th, Kings received Jimmer 10th but had 7th pick that year
Harrison Barnes - 7th overall after Kings picked 5th
Draymond Green - 2nd rounder

Key vet:
Andre Igoudala - spurned us to sign with GS

Ok they had former #1 Andrew Bogut who did virtually nothing with the Bucks.

The problem with the Kings was lack of vision, mis-management and culture.
 
#10
It's funny when Lillard comes up because that's a guy five teams including us passed over.

Durant is mentioned of course while Steph and the other guys that built that franchise conveniently ignored :rolleyes:

A lot of this comes down to once you get in the league are you willing to put in the work to get to the next level.
Your 2015 GSW core young talent

Steph - picked 7th after Kings drafted Tyreke 4th
Klay Thompson - Picked 11th, Kings received Jimmer 10th but had 7th pick that year
Harrison Barnes - 7th overall after Kings picked 5th
Draymond Green - 2nd rounder

Key vet:
Andre Igoudala - spurned us to sign with GS

Ok they had former #1 Andrew Bogut who did virtually nothing with the Bucks.

The problem with the Kings was lack of vision, mis-management and culture.
We are not the Warriors.

What vision does his team have? Was trading 2 pick swaps and an unprotected 1st round pick for cap space a good move for the future? Does trading a young star player and saying we are committed to a rebuild only to sign 3 vets on a team that already had 2 leaders scream like a plan to you ? After doing all those idiotic things we still had a chance to redeem ourselves and get a real game changer in the top 3 picks but we decided we wanted to keep both Kofus and ZBo at the expense of a lottery pick from a year ago. For what ?
 
#13
Your 2015 GSW core young talent

Steph - picked 7th after Kings drafted Tyreke 4th
Klay Thompson - Picked 11th, Kings received Jimmer 10th but had 7th pick that year
Harrison Barnes - 7th overall after Kings picked 5th
Draymond Green - 2nd rounder

Key vet:
Andre Igoudala - spurned us to sign with GS

Ok they had former #1 Andrew Bogut who did virtually nothing with the Bucks.

The problem with the Kings was lack of vision, mis-management and culture.
I think the key problem was very poor scouting and cheap, meddling owners in those drafts.
 
#19
To be clear I'm not suggesting picking 7th is better than picking 1st. I am saying that picking 7th doesn't leave you hopeless as all you doom and gloomers are, who want to take a big steaming turd all over a well fought win. Take that to the tank thread where you can gripe.
Picking around the 7th pick isn't always bad as some Tankers make it out to be.

Of course it is better to pick 1st, but a lot of times picking 7th takes the guess work out of projecting players on future potential.

At #7, you can usually pick the more solid player coming into the draft, instead of trying to project for future franchise player, like most teams do with the top 1-3 picks.

A player that has proven to be a solid player like Curry, Lillard, Kawhi, Klay Thompson, are more solid players coming into the draft, but don't get drafted as high, because scouts see them as more a finished product. In some cases that is good, because these players seem to have a higher floor and if you get lucky, like the Warriors, then those same players wind up having a lot higher ceilings than the scouts projected.

For example. I think Mikal Bridges will be available between #6-8 in the draft. He may not project to have the highest ceiling, but I can see him being one of the better overall players in 3 years, because he has a high floor. He could wind up being the best 2-way player in the draft and we could get him at #7.
 
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#20
Definitely. Vivek have proven to spend the money where needed. Vivek and the Maloofs can not even be compared when discussing spending money on the team.

Vivek has also been staying out of the way of Vlade for the last 2 years.
I’m sorry but what money? We arn’t over the luxary tax so he isn’t getting hit with anything.Has our scouting department improved?
 
#21
I’m sorry but what money? We arn’t over the luxary tax so he isn’t getting hit with anything.Has our scouting department improved?
The Maloofs were nickle and diming every move. That is why we drafted Thomas Robinson and Jimmer.

Vivek has allowed the team to draft and sign free agents without interference for the past 2 years.

Spending poorly and going into Luxury tax for a rebuilding team is not proof an owner is willing to spend.

There has been a huge difference between Vivek and the Maloofs. It's really not even close.
 
#22
Picking around the 7th pick isn't always bad as some Tankers make it out to be.

Of course it is better to pick 1st, but a lot of times picking 7th takes the guess work out of projecting players on future potential.

At #7, you can usually pick the more solid player coming into the draft, instead of trying to project for future franchise player, like most teams do with the top 1-3 picks.

A player that has proven to be a solid player like Curry, Lillard, Kawhi, Klay Thompson, are more solid players coming into the draft, but don't get drafted as high, because scouts see them as more a finished product. In some cases that is good, because these players seem to have a higher floor and if you get lucky, like the Warriors, then those same wind up having a lot higher ceilings that the scouts predicted.

For example. I think Mikal Bridges will be available between #6-8 in the draft. He may not project to have the highest ceiling, but I can see him being one of the better overall players in 3 years, because he has a high floor. He could wind up being the best 2-way player in the draft and we could get him at #7.
Jesus Christ, are you guys going to use Steph Curry and Kawahi as examples like they get drafted every year.

Let me repeat this, that’s a lighting strike, that comes with some luck and a front office with a brain.

For every Curry there are 7 Ben McLemores.

For every Kawhi, there are 15 Rodney Stuckeys.
 
#23
Jesus Christ, are you guys going to use Steph Curry and Kawahi as examples like they get drafted every year.

Let me repeat this, that’s a lighting strike, that comes with some luck and a front office with a brain.

For every Curry there are 7 Ben McLemores.

For every Kawhi, there are 15 Rodney Stuckeys.
I never said that picking 7th is better than picking 1st, read my post.

But making it out like it is the end of the world if we don't get the #1 draft pick is just wrong.

There are plenty of good players picked after the top 3.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#25
The Maloofs were nickle and diming every move. That is why we drafted Thomas Robinson and Jimmer.

Vivek has allowed the team to draft and sign free agents without interference for the past 2 years.

Spending poorly and going into Luxury tax for a rebuilding team is not proof an owner is willing to spend.

There has been a huge difference between Vivek and the Maloofs. It's really not even close.
That is true of the LATE stage Maloofs, after they pissed away much of their daddies money on bad investments and sold off the bevegrage biz that started the fortune. The full story is that when they first bought the controlling interest in the team and they were flush with cash they DID spend the money to bring in good people like Geoff and Rick, and they went over the cap to keep the core together when the Kings were a top team in the league. Their penny pinching coincides with the not so slow decline of the team and their desperate need for cash about a decade ago.

For folks wondering about winning culture the last 20 years of the Kings can serve as an object lesson. The team that came to Sacramento was a hot mess and well intended but under funded owners could not change that. By 1999 the Kings had excited new owners who let a sharp GM and a new head coach build a winning culture and even after Webber's knee went, and Vlade left the team was still a play off team until the Maloofs started to pinch pennies, fired Adelman and started to try to sell the team.

It seems the me the formula for building a winning culture requires support and confidence from ownership, a GM and Coach who have a vision, and plan set standards, and intentionally select guys that fit right and want to play as a team. Then you have to have the tallent an hard work. of player who buy into what the coach is trying to do. By that standard we are on year 1 right now, maybe year 2 if you over value talent and under value player buy in.
 
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#27
Jesus Christ, are you guys going to use Steph Curry and Kawahi as examples like they get drafted every year.

Let me repeat this, that’s a lighting strike, that comes with some luck and a front office with a brain.

For every Curry there are 7 Ben McLemores.

For every Kawhi, there are 15 Rodney Stuckeys.
Andriod, I was on your side of this argument earlier this year but I gave it up because some people just simply don't care about having better odds and no matter how much you break it down, they aren't going to change their minds. This argument has already been gone through on here multiple times. It's always just kind of the same thing.

Kawhi was picked 15th. Draymond 2nd round. IT the last pick. Hassan Whiteside improved. Let the chips fall where they may. It's up to the basketball gods. Winning culture needs to be developed or else they will become perennial losers. Need to learn how to win the right way etc etc

Some of us want to win through logic and strategy and others would rather just watch and enjoy it in the now. I get where they're coming from because obviously we can't change a thing no matter how much we talk about it or how irritated we get. So in theory we should just be able to sit back and enjoy what was actually a very entertaining game against the Heat and be happy about the win because being unhappy about it doesn't change the outcome at all. Some people are perfectly ok with that. Me personally, I can't do it. Sounds like you can't and I know there's a handful of others on here that can't do it either.

To me that's like watching your home go up in flames and being like "Well I can't do anything about it now so let me just enjoy the cool explosions".
 
#28
Jesus Christ, are you guys going to use Steph Curry and Kawahi as examples like they get drafted every year.

Let me repeat this, that’s a lighting strike, that comes with some luck and a front office with a brain.

For every Curry there are 7 Ben McLemores.

For every Kawhi, there are 15 Rodney Stuckeys.

according to google chances of a lightning strike are 1 in 700,000. there have been a total of 71 NBA drafts. we know from this thread that at least 2 of those drafts produced a superstar of the coveted type at draft position 7. so that is 2 in 71 or 1 in 35.5.

you should use a more precise analogy to avoid your argument unintentionaly sounding stronger than it actually is. :p

furthermore, to give a better estimate of the sacraficed odds at greatness by winning meaningless games, we should classify all number 1 picks as superstar or not, and do the same for all number 7 picks. then take the delta of the percentages.

since this topic has been discussed multiple times, Im assuming an even better analysis was performed and numbers have actually been posted on the forum already.

can someone who might have seen these numbers repeat them? that way we can all make an informed personal decision about whether we can enjoy these wins given our own value preferences for win enjoyment/ odds at greatness loss.
 
#30
That’s the issue, we don’t have a winning culture, and won’t ever have a winning culture with the current make up of this team, somehow the constant losing for Philly seem to have went away not because they won a couple of games because they drafted 2 potential superstars. It’s a fallacy that fans believe because it makes them feel better, if someone could provide me with some data, showing how these wins will help us in the future I’ll shut my mouth and cheer on. Yet the only data that i have seen majority of the star players in the history of the nba were drafts with high lottery picks, you get high lottery picks by sucking, teams suck by playing young players and benching 37 old vets.
Man, it’s depreasing reading your posts. Don’t you depress yourself? Why? I know I can block you, but I don’t want to block anybody. Just want to read and post without feeling like there’s no hope whatsoever. I could spend time with relatives if I wanted to feel that way.