Will Kenny and his ego opt out

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I am wondering given the news he is not in the Kings plans will KT and his ego opt out? I know he is giving up alot of money BUT, what self respecting healthy player would sit on the bench for the rest of this year plus 2 more years and never play 1 min? Could this be a ploy to get him to settle on a buyout that is a bargin for the kings? Just wanting everyones opinions on this.

My opinion is he will push desperatly for a trade or he will settle for a buyout giving him less money than he would have made riding the bench for 3 years. I just don't think he will ride the bench. Maybe retire?
 
I see little chance he will opt out or simply retire. The story I heard is Thomas thinks he can play a role if he proves his worth in practice. He's been working hard with a new shooting coach to retool his technique which for some reason crashed and burned over the past couple of years. His practice regiment has been solid, plus maintaining a professional attitude despite not getting many minutes on the court. I forget who is agent is, but I recall he's a pretty tough customer who isn't likely to advise K9 to opt out or retire anytime soon. Probably the only way Kenny leaves Sactown over the next year is via a packaged trade with someone like a Bibby or Artest. Every deal Petire has had on the table for one of them has included Thomas. It looks like Geoff is going to force someone to take the PF if they really want a new starting PG or SF.
 
I don't think he'll retire - my guess is he knows he is included in any possible future trade and is hoping that whatever team he goes to will value him more than we have. I agree his ego is out of bounds to his performance and I think that very thing will prevent him from retiring as long as he can play somewhere.
 
Well I wish I hadn't said retire since that is the entire focus now. what about buyout or the opt out?
 
It's not about his ego, it's about his livelihood. Would you opt out of 8 million a year knowing that you'd get FAR less if you did so. It's pretty much a no-brainer from his POV.
 
So lets see. He is owed about 22 mil with the rest of this season and the next 2. Lets say he agrees to a 15mil buyout what does that do to our cap. When does that other 7 mil go toward it.
 
No way does he opt out. All Thomas needs to do is look what happened to Bonzi when he spurned the Kings offer. It cost him 30 million or more. Thomas will be sitting until a deal can ship him.

I DO think sitting him and not giving him a single minute is a ploy of some kind. He is good enough to get 10-15 minutes a game on this team. he does rebound and he does hustle when in the games. i think he is a pretty decent player coming off the bench to be honest with you.
 
hell yeah its a ploy and a good one. Also what do you think this does to the minset of SAR. He is out for the rest of the season and has to think that he isn't part of the plan either. Maybe retirement IS in his vocabulary, especially if he has a setback with the knee.
 
No way Shareef retires. Over 12 million and 2 years remaining on his deal. bad knee or not, he aint leaving that kind of money on the table.
 
No way Shareef retires. Over 12 million and 2 years remaining on his deal. bad knee or not, he aint leaving that kind of money on the table.

I think if you have to retire for medical reasons that insurance picks up your contract. Or at least some contracts. Not sure if its a league mandated provision, or one that is individually negotiated. In any case, not sure that Reef would be leaving hte money on the table if he called it quits.

Bigger thing with him is that I think he still thinks he has game and wants to play for a winner.
 
I think if you have to retire for medical reasons that insurance picks up your contract. Or at least some contracts. Not sure if its a league mandated provision, or one that is individually negotiated. In any case, not sure that Reef would be leaving hte money on the table if he called it quits.

Bigger thing with him is that I think he still thinks he has game and wants to play for a winner.

And if insurance picks it up it comes off the cap instantly. Now Brick did you see my earlier question. How would a buyout work with KT and the cap if it is say 7mil less than the term of the contract.
 
And if insurance picks it up it comes off the cap instantly. Now Brick did you see my earlier question. How would a buyout work with KT and the cap if it is say 7mil less than the term of the contract.

The 7 mil is subtracted from the cap over the 2 1/2 years. That's the benefit. The 15 mil would be spread out over the 2 1/2 years for cap purposes although it could be paid to KT in one lump sum or spread out over as many years as was negotiated.
 
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The 7 mil is subtracted from the cap over the 2 1/2 years. That's the benefit. The 15 mil would be spread out over the 2 1/2 years for cap purposes although it could be paid to KT in one lump sum or spread out over as many years as was negotiated.

So it would give us immediate cap relief albeit not much maybe 2.5 mil or so. Hmmm if we can't get a trade by trade deadline I think that would be a good idea to buy him out. Also if we can't trade Ron that would give us more cap relief if he opts out giving us close to 10 mil of relief. We would still be over the cap but, its a start.
 
So it would give us immediate cap relief albeit not much maybe 2.5 mil or so. Hmmm if we can't get a trade by trade deadline I think that would be a good idea to buy him out. Also if we can't trade Ron that would give us more cap relief if he opts out giving us close to 10 mil of relief. We would still be over the cap but, its a start.

If you take into account the Martin salary, I don't believe there will be any significant cap relief until SAR, KT, Miller, and Moore's contracts come to an end in the summer of 2010. Simply getting under the cap is of no use. It has to be FAR under the cap. Read this part of the cap rules and you will see that to be competitive for a free agent worth roughly $8 mil per year, we actually will need to be about $16 mil under the cap. Makes no sense on the face of it but read this http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#20

For most teams, or so it seems, the best way of improving their teams is by trade or the MLE. Check this page and go through the work of seeing what free agents will be available in 2010 and you won't see much. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/sacramento.htm

I don't think there has ever been anything that could have been done to get us cap relief until 2009 or 2010 and all this complaining about using the MLE in the past simply doesn't add up to be worth anything except that it made our team better. Complain about Petrie all anyone wishes, but that section 20 of the cap rules is a killer. Let us be happy that he gave us a little flexibility. If we don't resign Bibby and if we buy out Moore early, we will have a enough money to play with in the summer of 2009. If we decide to go in another direction, we will have enough money to get two free agents in 2010 if they are available. It is not an accident that 4 contracts are up in the same year. Then we have to pray that a great FA likes the looks of the Kings organization and the direction it is going. It might help if we look like a team that can win and of the 4 contracts that are up, not one of them is a person who has significant value in 2010.

The real thing that screwed up the Kings plans was Webber's injury. How long was his salary supposed to be?
 
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How long was (Webber's) salary supposed to be?

The contract we signed him to would have ended this summer. The net result appears to have been that we avoided 3.5 years of Webber at $20M, and exchanged it for 5.5 years of KT, SAR, Skinner, Potapenko and Mikki at an average cost of about $16M a year. We end up paying about 15% more, but it's spread out over an extra couple of years. Since all of our signings since then have been using extentions to existing contracts or salary exceptions, it hasn't had any impact so far, although that arguably changes this summer, when we would have been under cap for the first time this century.

I agree that cap space in 2011 isn't going to do us much good, since major stars almost never become FAs, and when they do, are not usually interested in lottery teams. It's good for situations like when we were courting Przybilla, but couldn't get him because we couldn't offer any more than Portland could; i.e., cap space can get you role players or minor stars who are worth a little more than MLE. So few teams can offer anything more than MLE, that even a few million in cap space can be a major advantage at times like that. So $20M in cap space, all at once, could allow us to hire a couple of Przybilla-level roleplayers at the same time, but probably accomplishes no more than that. Still, it would be nice to be able to sign some folks who hadn't already been rejected by the competition.

As far as KT's concerned, I can't imagine him walking away from so much money. A buyout, maybe.

Even back at UNM, Kenny had a rep for being someone who was regularly told that he wouldn't make it, that he was too short and chubby, lacking in talent, or whatever, but then Kenny would defy his critics by getting into shape and overperforming. My worry is that Kenny may have silenced his critics for as long as he cares to, that his angry sort of pride may have weakened. Maybe he has come to terms with the fact that, by NBA standards, he just doesn't have the goods to be a top notch player. Maybe he's content to have simply started in the NBA for a while, knowing that he's financially set for life. If so, there's no reason for him to be interested in a buyout.

They say that he's working hard on getting his shot back, and, if he is really sincere and determined about it, that is a good sign, from any perspective. If it's more front office PR than truth, or if Kenny's just going through the motions because the coaching staff expects him to, then he will be an albatross until the end of his contract. More than one Bibby trade has supposedly been torpedoed because Petrie insisted on including Kenny, so GP's kind of playing with fire at this point. If we end up getting little or nothing for our expiring players, Kenny will have cost us far more than the wasted $7M a year.
 
There's not going to be a buyout this season or next because Petrie still believes he can trade KT in a package. You buy him out, you're stuck with his buyout amount on the cap and I don't believe GP wants that.

Now, if Kenny is still around in 2009, maybe we'll buy him out then.

As for him opting out, fat chance. He's getting paid millions and has the best seat in the house. Would you give that up?
 
So $20M in cap space, all at once, could allow us to hire a couple of Przybilla-level roleplayers at the same time, but probably accomplishes no more than that. Still, it would be nice to be able to sign some folks who hadn't already been rejected by the competition.


I don't believe that's true. Webber's contract coming off the book would have made us $10 millions under the cap ($20 millions below the luxury tax line). But you factor in KMart's extension and that cap space is about $3 millions. And if you re-sign Beno that cap space is gone.

In other words, there will be little to no cap space next summer whether or not we keep Webber.
 
Webber's contract coming off the book would have made us $10 millions under the cap ($20 millions below the luxury tax line). But you factor in KMart's extension and that cap space is about $3 millions. And if you re-sign Beno that cap space is gone.

In other words, there will be little to no cap space next summer whether or not we keep Webber.

I was actually referring to the money will will have coming off in 2010-11, not in the "what if we had kept Webber" scenario. If we had kept Webber, and only added inexpensive players and draft picks to the roster (which is all we would have been able to afford, anyway), our salary in July would be:
Bibby: $13.5M
Brad: $10.5M
Kevin: $11M
Douby, Garcia, Jones, Williams, 2008 draft picks: $9M

That's $44M, the salary cap is $55.63M, and can be expected to be higher next year. So unless we were planning on paying Beno over $12M a year, we would still be under cap.
 
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K9 is similar to Ron Artest in that they are both extremely good basketball players when they want to be. I dont see K9 as problematic.
 
I was actually referring to the money will will have coming off in 2010-11, not in the "what if we had kept Webber" scenario. If we had kept Webber, and only added inexpensive players and draft picks to the roster (which is all we would have been able to afford, anyway), our salary in July would be:
Bibby: $13.5M
Brad: $10.5M
Kevin: $11M
Douby, Garcia, Jones, Williams, 2008 draft picks: $9M

That's $44M, the salary cap is $55.63M, and can be expected to be higher next year. So unless we were planning on paying Beno over $12M a year, we would still be under cap.

I see, about your 2010-11 forecast.

Regarding our cap in July if we had kept Webber; our cap was the same back in 2005 regardless of whether we keep C-Web or not, and I believe GP still would have signed somebody to backup Webber: either SAR or re-sign Darius Songalia at about $4.5 mil a season. We would have saved a little by going with Darius, but not enough to make a difference this summer. And I'm pretty sure GP still would sign Miki because we would have needed a healthy big body with Webber in the sharp decline.

So my opinion is, keeping Web wouldn't have mattered much.
 
K9 is similar to Ron Artest in that they are both extremely good basketball players when they want to be. I dont see K9 as problematic.


So I guess KT's problem is he doesn't want to be a good basketball player anymore? Isn't that still a big problem?
 
I believe GP still would have signed somebody to backup Webber: either SAR or re-sign Darius Songalia at about $4.5 mil a season. We would have saved a little by going with Darius, but not enough to make a difference this summer. And I'm pretty sure GP still would sign Miki because we would have needed a healthy big body with Webber in the sharp decline.

So my opinion is, keeping Web wouldn't have mattered much.

Or maybe we'd have drafted David Lee and Paul Millsap instead of Cisco and Douby. Who knows? It's all speculation. Which was why I hadn't attempted any serious look at "what if..." to begin with.
 
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Kenny may have been an allstar if he was 3 inches taller. Do they allow lifts in the NBA? ;)
 
No way does he opt out. All Thomas needs to do is look what happened to Bonzi when he spurned the Kings offer. It cost him 30 million or more. Thomas will be sitting until a deal can ship him.

I DO think sitting him and not giving him a single minute is a ploy of some kind. He is good enough to get 10-15 minutes a game on this team. he does rebound and he does hustle when in the games. i think he is a pretty decent player coming off the bench to be honest with you.

He is not good enough to get 10-15 minutes a game with this team or any team really. According to Hollinger's PER he's one of the 30 worst players in the NBA. Considering that PER's main weakness is defensive impact and Thomas isn't really much of a defender its fair to say that he is one of the worst players in the NBA.
 
He is not good enough to get 10-15 minutes a game with this team or any team really. According to Hollinger's PER he's one of the 30 worst players in the NBA. Considering that PER's main weakness is defensive impact and Thomas isn't really much of a defender its fair to say that he is one of the worst players in the NBA.

PER isn't the only rating he fares badly with, ones which include defense aren't much higher. Here's a look at familiar bigs, with emphasis on some of the worst ones, and their +/- and Roland Ratings.

...........................+/-.........RR
Bynum(LAL)..........+10.7...+11.1 <--- had to include one total stud just for comparison
Brad Miller..............-1.6....+3.9
Justin Williams.......+0.5.....-2.0
Odom(LAL)............-1.3......-1.6
Hayes(HOU)...........-3.1......-0.2
Turiaf(LAL).............-2.4......-3.6
Amundson(PHI)......-3.6......-2.8
Gooden(CLE)..........-4.0.....-1.9
Haslem(MIA)..........-3.9.....-5.7
Mikki Moore...........-6.2.....-4.8
Evans(PHI).............-7.1.....-5.5
Spencer Hawes......-8.4......-5.4
Mihm(LAL).............-7.5......-8.7
Watkins(waived).....-11.4...-10.4
Kenny Thomas......-15.4....-15.7
 
I don't think Kenny will opt out. Do I want him to, most definitely.

However, I feel there is an incredibly, harsh negativity towards Kenny Thomas. Everyone is upset that money is going to waste since Kenny is sitting on the bench and not getting any playing time. When Kenny does play a little bit he isn't doing anything productive. Some blame his bad attitude for problems, which is a split debating issue since some disagree with this statement. For the most part, I agree with what others have generalized about Kenny.

However, I think that Kenny still has some potential somewhere. I don't know how much or what he could really do, but, in comparison, there was a former King who was "washed up" sitting near the end of the bench, only playing garbage time, and being paid around 5-6mil a year. However, nobody criticized him saying that he should retire, in fact if I recall correctly, most people were wondering why he wasn't getting more playing time. This player got more playing time in a later year and when his contract end, most people wanted him to resign. However, instead he retired. Most people already know I'm talking about Corliss Williamson.
What I'm saying is that there is probably potential somewhere in Kenny Thomas. Adelman got 10 points and 7.8 rebounds out of Kenny Thomas in 28.8 minutes per game with a .500 field goal percentage (during 1.5 seasons). It is true that skills go down over time, along with injuries that inhibit a player from reaching their past potential. However, I think there is something else that is prohibiting Kenny from reaching his full potential. I think that there is a combination of development of future players, diminished talent, and/or coaching that is preventing Kenny from reaching his current full potential. Theus was able to revive Brad Miller's career, but the opposite happened with Thomas' career. Yes, I am aware that Kenny was "a problem" ever since he arrived, but I don't ever remember it being because "he sucked" (until more recently). I just hope that KT will do whatever it takes to make our team better, if that means sitting at the end of the bench and giving his 8 years of experience to other players (like Cisco and Hawes) then so be it. I don't remember the statistic, but I'm pretty sure most NBA players do not make it to 8 years of experience. Most likely the Kings are stuck with Kenny Thomas; hopefully, the Kings and KT will make the most out of their remaining time.
 
If you take into account the Martin salary, I don't believe there will be any significant cap relief until SAR, KT, Miller, and Moore's contracts come to an end in the summer of 2010. Simply getting under the cap is of no use. It has to be FAR under the cap. Read this part of the cap rules and you will see that to be competitive for a free agent worth roughly $8 mil per year, we actually will need to be about $16 mil under the cap. Makes no sense on the face of it but read this http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#20

For most teams, or so it seems, the best way of improving their teams is by trade or the MLE. Check this page and go through the work of seeing what free agents will be available in 2010 and you won't see much. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/sacramento.htm

I don't think there has ever been anything that could have been done to get us cap relief until 2009 or 2010 and all this complaining about using the MLE in the past simply doesn't add up to be worth anything except that it made our team better. Complain about Petrie all anyone wishes, but that section 20 of the cap rules is a killer. Let us be happy that he gave us a little flexibility. If we don't resign Bibby and if we buy out Moore early, we will have a enough money to play with in the summer of 2009. If we decide to go in another direction, we will have enough money to get two free agents in 2010 if they are available. It is not an accident that 4 contracts are up in the same year. Then we have to pray that a great FA likes the looks of the Kings organization and the direction it is going. It might help if we look like a team that can win and of the 4 contracts that are up, not one of them is a person who has significant value in 2010.

The real thing that screwed up the Kings plans was Webber's injury. How long was his salary supposed to be?

If you read futher Glenn, it also says that the team has the option of renouncing the exceptions. So if you were 8 mil under the cap and the exceptions took you over the cap, you could use the exceptions to sign players, at 5mil, 2.5 mil individually or you could renounce the exceptions along with any retricted free agents and have the entire 8 mil to sign one player. So it is possible to get under the cap. You just have to give up the exceptions to do it.
 
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