why would we pass on marcus williams?

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I oddly have some confidence in Douby being able to be an NBA player, but the 6'3" tweener college shooting guard you try to make into a PG is the absolutely classic draft blunder. Those guys fail all the time. Only the 6'7" college center is less likely to find a home in the big leagues.

Who are these tweener guards that are failing? The 6'1" - 6'3" tweener guard actually seems to be the one position that people consistently undervalue in the draft. Just to name a few from the last few years: Delonte West, Jameer Nelson, Fred Jones, Luther Head, Gilbert Arenas, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Leandro Barbosa.
 
Who are these tweener guards that are failing? The 6'1" - 6'3" tweener guard actually seems to be the one position that people consistently undervalue in the draft. Just to name a few from the last few years: Delonte West, Jameer Nelson, Fred Jones, Luther Head, Gilbert Arenas, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Leandro Barbosa.

arenas and harris are tweeners? aren't they rather tall? at least arenas always seemed tall to me.

and since this is the marcus williams thread, i thought the following was funny from sports guy:

B. They [Celts] desperately want a point guard ... unfortunately, there are no sure things in this draft. The closest is Marcus Williams, who could end up being a lefty version of Mark Jackson with his passing and playmaking skills. Unfortunately, he has a few things working against him: the incredible laptop scandal (Red Flag No. 1); UConn's stunning exit in the NCAAs (Red Flag No. 2); the whole "I have no problem being overweight and out-of-shape for these pre-draft workouts" (Red Flag No. 3); major questions about his outside shot (Red Flag No. 4); his defensive ability (Red Flag No. 5); and his attitude (Red Flag No. 6). In other words, just call him Six Flags. I can't imagine the Celtics taking him after finally assembling a team of good chemistry guys after the Davis/Blount trade.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060628
 
Fantastic pick by the Kings. Douby is in the mold of Jason Terry/Bobby Jackson...he is instant offense off the bench. He is a tweener guard, with emphasis on the two, but has decent ball handling skills and plays hard from baseline to baseline.

Marcus Williams is a thug, when a top 10 pick slides past 15...I dont see why 16 on would consider him, and if Rajon Rondo was so good, I am sure he would have went well before that. Remember, Douby impressed the Kings more than any other draft pick...he was ready to go for TWO count them TWO workouts with the Kings.

Douby is the guy...and in the mold of the likes of Maxwell, Jackson, Delk, and the failed attempt at Hart...he is a energy tweener guard that can score off the bench...sound familiar? Geoff drafted for the backup point position the way he always has.
 
Petrie is affixed eternally to shooters. When we lost Peja he went banana mad and just chose a toothpick that can shoot and play no D to get this team a pure shooter somehow. Unbelievable, but coming from Petrie, I guess its really believable :\
 
Petrie is affixed eternally to shooters. When we lost Peja he went banana mad and just chose a toothpick that can shoot and play no D to get this team a pure shooter somehow. Unbelievable, but coming from Petrie, I guess its really believable :\

Hart can't shoot and he plays great D. How did you like him as a backup point guard this past year?
 
This has probably already been said, but I'm not going to read through all the pages.

Simply put, besides Marcus Williams other problems, he wasn't allowed to work out for us, as well as other teams. That's why he fell. Petrie wasn't going to draft a guy he didn't work out personally. End of story.
 
Who are these tweener guards that are failing? The 6'1" - 6'3" tweener guard actually seems to be the one position that people consistently undervalue in the draft. Just to name a few from the last few years: Delonte West, Jameer Nelson, Fred Jones, Luther Head, Gilbert Arenas, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Leandro Barbosa.

To name a few? Closer to name them all.

But even so, just being 6'1" to 6'3" does NOT make you a tweener. being a 6'1" to 6'3" OFF GUARD with a scoring mentality does. Trying to deny one of THE classic differences between NBA players and college players is just...wow.

Harris was a PG in college.
Nelson was a PG in college.
Have no idea what Barbosa was for Brazil, but he was considered a PG from the moment he hit the NBA so I'm assuming that's where he played overseas too.
Head may well be headed down the classic tweener path blazed by the Juan Dixons, DaJuan Wagners, Eddie Houses, Troy Bells, and Keyon Doolings. He is certainly no PG.

That leaves these 4: Arenas, Gordon, Jones and West. That's nice but hardly paradigm shifting. Of the 4 West is actually the guy who makes the best arguent. Arenas is obviously a special Iverson-like talent. The rules don't aply to guys like that. They come in all shapes and sizes. Gordon is headed down the Mahmoud Abdul-Raul path -- a proloific scorer unable to secure a spot precisely because he is a small soft OG and cannot learn the point. And Jones a) cannot secure the PG spot on a PG troubled team; and b) is really like Bobby Jackson in that he does it through superior physical skills and muscle. The rare useful tweener because he's actually strong enough to body an OG. West though would be the pleasant surprise. A too small college OG who actually learned to play the point.

There are two "breaks" in basketball positions regarding roles. PGs stand alone as distributors. OGs and SFs are interchangeable finesse/perimeter scorers. PFs and Cs are interchangeable as big interior rebounder/defenders/post players. Crossing between 2 and 3 is no great transition, although 3's with insufficient ball handling sklills can struggle. Crossing between 4 and 5 is no great transition. But crossing from the 2 (scorer) to the 1 (distributor) is a HUGE jump. As is crossing from the 4 (power) to the 3 (finesse). Those are the jumps that have doomed more college standouts than everything esle put together. In the pros 6'3" 175 is not an OG unless you are a HOF type talent. So in order to play in the league you have to go and cross a vast philosophical divide and play the game in a radically differnt fashion. Few can pull that off.
 
To name a few? Closer to name them all.

But even so, just being 6'1" to 6'3" does NOT make you a tweener. being a 6'1" to 6'3" OFF GUARD with a scoring mentality does. Trying to deny one of THE classic differences between NBA players and college players is just...wow.

Harris was a PG in college.
Nelson was a PG in college.
Have no idea what Barbosa was for Brazil, but he was considered a PG from the moment he hit the NBA so I'm assuming that's where he played overseas too.
Head may well be headed down the classic tweener path blazed by the Juan Dixons, DaJuan Wagners, Eddie Houses, Troy Bells, and Keyon Doolings. He is certainly no PG.

That leaves these 4: Arenas, Gordon, Jones and West. That's nice but hardly paradigm shifting. Of the 4 West is actually the guy who makes the best arguent. Arenas is obviously a special Iverson-like talent. The rules don't aply to guys like that. They come in all shapes and sizes. Gordon is headed down the Mahmoud Abdul-Raul path -- a proloific scorer unable to secure a spot precisely because he is a small soft OG and cannot learn the point. And Jones a) cannot secure the PG spot on a PG troubled team; and b) is really like Bobby Jackson in that he does it through superior physical skills and muscle. The rare useful tweener because he's actually strong enough to body an OG. West though would be the pleasant surprise. A too small college OG who actually learned to play the point.

There are two "breaks" in basketball positions regarding roles. PGs stand alone as distributors. OGs and SFs are interchangeable finesse/perimeter scorers. PFs and Cs are interchangeable as big interior rebounder/defenders/post players. Crossing between 2 and 3 is no great transition, although 3's with insufficient ball handling sklills can struggle. Crossing between 4 and 5 is no great transition. But crossing from the 2 (scorer) to the 1 (distributor) is a HUGE jump. As is crossing from the 4 (power) to the 3 (finesse). Those are the jumps that have doomed more college standouts than everything esle put together. In the pros 6'3" 175 is not an OG unless you are a HOF type talent. So in order to play in the league you have to go and cross a vast philosophical divide and play the game in a radically differnt fashion. Few can pull that off.

The knock on Harris coming in was that he didn't have enough experience to play PG and had a scoring mentality. Nelson was credited more for his PG skills, but he still had a scoring mentality. Besides, Douby played PG in college, just like those guys. Jason Terry is another guy I forgot to add to the list, by the way. Of course there have been some busts, but there have been plenty of hits. West, Harris, Barbosa, Terry, Arenas, Gordon, Steve Francis... even going back to Iverson, the tweener pioneer.

I really don't see why the backup PG has to be a distributor. The Kings have quite a few people (Bibby, Miller, Artest, Garcia) who they can run the offense through. If Douby were being brought in to be a starting point guard, or if the Kings depended on their point guard to run the offense you might be right. But with the personnel the Kings have, I don't see why the Kings can't have a scoring backup point guard. Look at Bobby Jackson, Tony Delk, Vernon Maxwell. Or, look around the league at Jason Terry, Gilbert Arenas, etc. No one complained then that those guys weren't distributors and pure PGs, why complain now?

The new handchecking rules prize one-on-one play more than ever, and Douby gives the Kings a guy who can get his own shot and shoot well from 3. That's going to be more valuable than a plodding distributor (Marcus Williams) or a good defense-no offense player (Hart, Rondo).

You're overblowing things with your "breaks" between positions. Who says your backup point guard has to distribute?
 
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Forget Marcus Williams. His upside is Mark Jackson. While I understand Mark Jackson was a solid player, I freaking hated Mark Jackson and I wouldn't want his clone playing for us.

Maybe we'll be sorry one day that we passed on Rondo, but I think that Douby will be a player for us. Really he was safe pick with upside, he's not going to forget how to shoot and considering where he's come from he could really continue to develop his game.
 
I like this pick. I would much rather see Douby coming in the game than Hart. Even if he isn't a pure point guard, his point guard skills can't be any worse than Hart.
 
i was a bit disappointed that the kings passed on rondo, but i was wary of marcus williams when he started dropping--especially when teams with specific PG needs were passing on him. his collegiate numbers are great....but he's kinduva knucklehead, and an out-of-shape knucklehead at that. granted, its not difficult to get into shape playing on an nba team, but questions of motivation, assertiveness, and all-around desire surround guys like marcus williams, who believe they can become top-10 prospects on talent alone.

i'm satisfied with the douby decision, though i must admit i was really hoping to hear rajon rondo's name being called when stern reached the podium to reveal who the kings picked at 19. the kid is gonna be good. he's quick, he's got great court vision, he knows how to distribute, and he's a freakish rebounder for his size. granted, the nba is a whole new ballgame when it comes to rebounding, but i dig the kid's desire to go after the boards. that's tenacity that you can't teach. he's also got freakishly big hands for a PG, and that helps cut down on his turnovers, and contributes to his solid ballhandling skills. he can't really shoot the ball, but michael redd wasn't much of a shooter coming into the nba, either. i am very opposed to the idea that a player coming out of college can't improve his shot in the nba. that's just ludicrous to me. goodness, chris webber has learned how to shoot free throws and 18-foot elbow jumpers late in his career as he's become less of a force on the block. that's adaptation, and i believe rondo will learn to adapt as he discovers that he has less of a path to the basket in the nba. it may take a couple of years, but rondo is a heady ballplayer with a natural knack for seeing the floor. that's stuff that you can't teach a player like douby, who is a run-and-gun kind of player. of course, musselman has said that he'd like to get the team running more, so douby is also a good choice for the fast break. rondo was my man for the half-court set. we'll see what happens as both players develop in the nba. i don't believe we'll regret passing on marcus williams, but we may have passed on a unique opportunity with rajon rondo.
 
I am just curious if the Kings picked Marcus Williams how many people here would have complained about it and suggest we should have picked Douby instead.
I don't even think Douby's name would have been mentioned in this forum. I am not saying Douby is better or worse than Williams but I think many people support the selection just because it's done by Petrie, not because they have any idea about the guy.
 
To name a few? Closer to name them all.

But even so, just being 6'1" to 6'3" does NOT make you a tweener. being a 6'1" to 6'3" OFF GUARD with a scoring mentality does. Trying to deny one of THE classic differences between NBA players and college players is just...wow.

Harris was a PG in college.
Nelson was a PG in college.
Have no idea what Barbosa was for Brazil, but he was considered a PG from the moment he hit the NBA so I'm assuming that's where he played overseas too.
Head may well be headed down the classic tweener path blazed by the Juan Dixons, DaJuan Wagners, Eddie Houses, Troy Bells, and Keyon Doolings. He is certainly no PG.

You're off. Douby did play PG in college, even when he wasn't technically the PG he was a primary ball-handler and the hub of the offense. The traditional losers in this are the 6' 2" guys who are great shooters but have no ball-handling skills. Douby doesn't fit that mold.
 
I am just curious if the Kings picked Marcus Williams how many people here would have complained about it and suggest we should have picked Douby instead.
I don't even think Douby's name would have been mentioned in this forum. I am not saying Douby is better or worse than Williams but I think many people support the selection just because it's done by Petrie, not because they have any idea about the guy.

Well, I for one would have complained.
 
I am just curious if the Kings picked Marcus Williams how many people here would have complained about it and suggest we should have picked Douby instead.
I don't even think Douby's name would have been mentioned in this forum. I am not saying Douby is better or worse than Williams but I think many people support the selection just because it's done by Petrie, not because they have any idea about the guy.

The fact that an elite talent evaluator like Petrie made the pick is an excellent reason to support it. Its much better than wanting Williams because he was supposed to go higher in all of the mock drafts people saw.
 
The fact that an elite talent evaluator like Petrie made the pick is an excellent reason to support it. Its much better than wanting Williams because he was supposed to go higher in all of the mock drafts people saw.


I agree. The fact is that these guys have watched this guy close up (meaning the Kings staff, including Petrie, and all these experts saying the Kings got a steal, etc), most of us have not. Some like what they've read about him, some do not.

Most scouting reports have claimed how good of a ball-handler and solid of a passer he is. On another board, a Rutgers fan was saying how Douby's job on that team was to score, not to pass it to players that couldn't make it. And that he was a very capable passer and ball handler.

Bobby Jackson was not a great passer, ball handler, but was fearless and could put the ball in the hoop. Everything I've read on this kid talks about how fearless of a competitor he is and how he's on the same level as the Morrisons of the draft offensively
 
What we know now:
1. Petrie has a lot of faith in the developement of Ronnie Price.
2. He thinks that given the salary cap issues and our needs, Bonzi may go to the highest bidder which won't be us. Bonzi says he wants to say, but to think the Kings would match the highest bidder is redick cause there will be a team that offers him a lot of dough, it happens every off season.
3. Big men are projects, why not pick up an already developed big when you can get a scorer now.
4. Great compitition for the trio of K-Mart/Cisco/Douby (Our future bench and starters)
5. About Douby, kids only been playing six years. He has potential.
 
There are certain assumptions that one can make in regards to this pick. That said, I think their is one absolute that we can take from this and that is that Petrie thinks that Garcia and Douby can handle the backup PG spot.
 
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