Why trade for pennies on the dollar?

[Vlade4GM]

Really?

Let's see. The Celtics (KG). The Blazers (Oden). The Cavs (Boozer). The Pistons (Wallace). The Hornets (West). The Suns (Amare). And last, but not least, the Kings (Webber).

But I guess you could be right. It's absolutely impossible that a good big man will ever find his way to Sacramento. Impossible. Given that we will be in the lottery for at least a couple of years and have good assets to trade, it's absolutely impossible that we land an all-star big man.

Well then, we move on to the other option for Artest. Trade him in the summer. What's wrong with that? Why do we absolutely have to trade him now for junk?

Celtics gave up a very good young PF back in that deal which we do not have, replace Jefferson with Kevin Martin and there is no way that deal gets done. Oden (still unproven, but I'll assume he fulfills his potential to a significant degree), they had the 6th worst record in the league and were in a place where it was a reasonable hope they could get into the top 3, big difference between 6th worst and 10-14 worst. Cavs had the cap space to sign Boozer to a big contract, we won't have the cap space for awhile with the way we're going and then we also need for a team to let go of a good big and then have that big come here; also the cavs had to wait 2 seasons before he became a consistent 20-10 player. How old/crazy will Artest be by then? He will start slowing down, the ticking will get louder, and he'll still have the same ego that makes him dominate the ball despite not being the type of scorer that really deserves the ball that much. The suns got Amare with the 9th pick in the draft and when HS players were allowed so there were more unknown high ceilings that fell i.e. more chance to get lucky. Sheed isn't that elite IMO, doesn't make us contenders right now and too old to make us contenders in the future (going by the age in which Detroit acquired him too). David West is not elite, he's a good offensive player but if you're going to call him an elite PF you might as well call Zach Randolph an elite PF; also it took 2 seasons for him to become a solid starter at the 3 and 4 seasons to become an all-star (a selection I highly disagree with).

This is called a straw man argument; I NEVER said it was impossible and I made that VERY clear that I wasn't saying it was impossible. I'm saying to expect one to fall into our laps within Artest's prime is not only very unlikely, but a really bad bet and stupid basis for re-signing Artest who is a ball hog, declining defensively, and a ticking time bomb.

You're assuming he doesn't opt out and I don't think we'll get any better offers at all.

 

[Glenn]

Of course it can happen, a lot of things can happen, but betting on it to just fall into your lap is a stupid bet.

Well, then I have to say giving away all our good players with the hope that we will get better people in the draft or in free agency seems even more far out. Getting one player is easier than getting 5-8.

 

[Glenn]

Artest who is a ball hog, declining defensively, and a ticking time bomb.

He has not been a ball hog recently. In fact, the team is dumping the ball to him a lot and frequently with 2 seconds on the clock. If being seen by the team and the coach as the go-to man is ball hogging, you have redefined the term.

Declining defensively? I'd like to see an attempt at proving that.

Everything I have seen from Artest recently has been positive except for his flapping gums.

 

[Heuge]

Declining defensively? I'd like to see an attempt at proving that.

Me too.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Well, then I have to say giving away all our good players with the hope that we will get better people in the draft or in free agency seems even more far out.

Where do I suggest we get rid of all our good players? Only ones that don't fit the proper long term goals of a rebuilding team.

Getting one player is easier than getting 5-8

Oh yea likes it's seriously that black and white

 

[fnordius]

Given that we will be in the lottery for at least a couple of years and have good assets to trade...

What are these great assets that we can trade for the NBA's next dominant big? Kevin + 2 unprotected first round picks, 2 second round picks, and $3M?

 

[Vlade4GM]

What are these great assets that we can trade for the NBA's next dominant big? Kevin + 2 unprotected first round picks, 2 second round picks, and $3M?

Yea seriously, I wonder how he figures we have so much to trade and then after that so much to support this mystery all-star big man that will fall out of the sky.

 

[Glenn]

Oh yea likes it's seriously that black and white

So explain it to me. Enlighten me in my ignorance.

 

[beb0p]

Yea seriously, I wonder how he figures we have so much to trade and then after that so much to support this mystery all-star big man that will fall out of the sky.

The bottom line is you're willing to trade Artest for junk. And we don't. That's the bottom line.

I said we keep Artest and wait for a better deal. And then who knows, maybe we have a good frontline by then and extending Artest becomes logical. But the last scenario is what you Artest haters lash on to. This not-out-of-the-ordinary situation where we get a good PF; somehow becomes the only point you and fnordius focus on. Probably because you guys don't have anything else to refute on.

Now, I'd have accept that maybe you think JR Smith is a stud or the low 1st will net us a very good player; in other words, the Denver offer was in fact fair value for Artest in your opinion.

But you said nothing of the sort. All you ever say is that Artest will walk (not a given by any means) and we should settle for garbage.

This is the same mindset that sent Gasol to the Lakers, this "We need to get rid of him NOW, and we'll take the best offer NOW regardless of whether it's a fair deal."

And you'll never find GP making those kind of deals. And that's whey he is one of the best.

 

[fnordius]

And then who knows, maybe we have a good frontline by then and extending Artest becomes logical. But the last scenario is what you Artest haters lash on to. This not-out-of-the-ordinary situation where we get a good PF; somehow becomes the only point you and fnordius focus on. Probably because you guys don't have anything else to refute on.

There's nothing to refute. If I said that, in a few weeks, Geoff was going to shave his head and start selling flowers and incense in the SF airport, you could tell me you thought I was nuts, but you couldn't refute it until next month.

We have less than a year for the big of our dreams to materialize and fulfill your vision of the future. Doesn't look like it'll be happening with the 12th draft pick, or in the second round, so it will either happen with a trade, or it won't happen before Artest's contract runs out. I don't see what we have to trade for a budding superstar, hence my skepticism. If you'd care to answer my query about what our great tradable assets are, that would be nice. Otherwise, we can just wait until the 2008-9 trade deadline for the final answer.

 

[beb0p]

There's nothing to refute. If I said that, in a few weeks, Geoff was going to shave his head and start selling flowers and incense in the SF airport, you could tell me you thought I was nuts, but you couldn't refute it until next month.

We have less than a year for the big of our dreams to materialize and fulfill your vision of the future. Doesn't look like it'll be happening with the 12th draft pick, or in the second round, so it will either happen with a trade, or it won't happen before Artest's contract runs out. I don't see what we have to trade for a budding superstar, hence my skepticism. If you'd care to answer my query about what our great tradable assets are, that would be nice. Otherwise, we can just wait until the 2008-9 trade deadline for the final answer.

Again, you are zeroing in on a hyperthetical and treating it as an absolute.

NO ONE ever said that we will get a good PF for sure. Again, you're focusing on this hyperthetical because you can't defend that Denver deal is crap. The whole point is NOT we'll get an all-star PF within the year, the whole point is Denver was offering garbage!

I have yet to see you or Vlade, or any pro-traders even attempt to address this coherently. All I ever read is, "Well, a low first is better than nothing." But when we say why not wait for a better deal in the summer? That's when all this off-the-point thing came about from you and Vlade.

I'm guessing you'll reply my post with another "We won't get a good PF! We should have traded Artest!!" But offer no logical reason why we should trade him for trash.

 

[fnordius]

I have yet to see you or Vlade, or any pro-traders even attempt to address this coherently. All I ever read is, "Well, a low first is better than nothing." But when we say why not wait for a better deal in the summer? That's when all this off-the-point thing came about from you and Vlade.

I'm guessing you'll reply my post with another "We won't get a good PF! We should have traded Artest!!" But offer no logical reason why we should trade him for trash.

There are many reasons, but how about this one, just for starters.

Ron can walk, and he just might. He changes his mind every few weeks, and it's anybody's guess where Ron's mental roulette ball may land this summer. If it doesn't land on Sacramento, we get nothing. A first round draft pick is a lot better than nothing. So there's one logical reason for you. I won't belabor the point by listing all the others.

 

[Jerryaki]

...the whole point is Denver was offering garbage!

i firmly believe that artest has been shopped for the past two seasons now, and that there is a reason why geoff has not consummated any deals: he has been offered "garbage." but the reason he is being/has been offered garbage: that is what the GMs of the league view as artest's worth.

[ETA: and i hear a lot on the board about artest's ability and potential and talent and so forth. yet where are we? smack in the middle of .500 land. other GMs know this, and i doubt many of them are silly enough to think "but if he were with my club, he'd totally realize his potential!"]

now, the denver deal. an expiring, kleiza, and a pick. i think that's reasonable. the expiring goes away, and you either get A) a young, promising kid in kleiza and a pick to further add an inexpensive contract or B) a young, promising kid in kleiza AND another pick to package with our own to trade.

you tell me, what's more tradeable: ron artest, or kleiza + two picks?

 

[HndsmCelt]

The BIG problem with trading Ron at a discount of his currnet contract is that his current contract is grossly under valued for what he brings to the court. The ammount of tallent he brings cna't be brought back for what we pay him much less for less so having him walk is almost preferable to trading him for less. In reality the list teams willing to take a risk on Ron is likely fairly short and mostly cash straped so the BEST bet will be a (sign and) trade to a team team that perfoms will in the psot season but clealry lacks defense.

 

[beb0p]

There are many reasons, but how about this one, just for starters.

Ron can walk, and he just might. He changes his mind every few weeks, and it's anybody's guess where Ron's mental roulette ball may land this summer. If it doesn't land on Sacramento, we get nothing. A first round draft pick is a lot better than nothing. So there's one logical reason for you. I won't belabor the point by listing all the others.

Make no mistake, I and other fans who support GP on not trading Ron Ron know that Artest may walk and we get nothing. It's a gamble but it's a worthwhile gamble.

But the smart money points to Artest staying or leave via a sign-n-trade. Why? The few teams that have cap space will not give him the goods. He will not sign an MLE. So that leaves either a sign-n-trade or he stays.

Which means the probability of us having another shot a trading him is high. If we are to settle for garbage, do it then.

 

[beb0p]

you tell me, what's more tradeable: ron artest, or kleiza + two picks?

Denver wasn't offering Kleiza. If you meant JR Smith + pick then obviously we're not going to keep JR so that leaves just the low 1st pick. Which is not a commodity that can fetch much in return.

 

[Jerryaki]

Denver wasn't offering Kleiza. If you meant JR Smith + pick then obviously we're not going to keep JR so that leaves just the low 1st pick. Which is not a commodity that can fetch much in return.

unfortunately, neither is artest.

 

[Bricklayer]

The BIG problem with trading Ron at a discount of his currnet contract is that his current contract is grossly under valued for what he brings to the court. The ammount of tallent he brings cna't be brought back for what we pay him much less for less so having him walk is almost preferable to trading him for less. In reality the list teams willing to take a risk on Ron is likely fairly short and mostly cash straped so the BEST bet will be a (sign and) trade to a team team that perfoms will in the psot season but clealry lacks defense.

The even alrger problem is that if Ron did have the bigger contract, he is such a leper that there is no way in hell you could bring backk thaat $$ figure in talent, and would be eating bad contracts again. Hell, he's not even worth Linas Kleiza on the open market. In fact it is/was BETTER to trade Ron on the small deal, both for the other teams and for us so that we are talking about reasonable numbers.

 

[Superman]

And then who knows, maybe we have a good frontline by then and extending Artest becomes logical.

I'd like to know how you justify signing Ron Artest to a new contract with the intention of keeping him here. I don't think that the Kings should, under any circumstances, re-sign Artest, especially not if he opts out this summer.

And that's the thing about it. We had a chance to ensure that we don't get screwed with the Artest situation (if he opts out and we don't get anything for him, we get screwed). Yeah, maybe his talent justifies us holding out for a better trade opportunity, but there are a lot of intangibles that have to be considered when talking about trading Ron Artest. To ignore the fact that he has proven to be the most unpredictable and volatile player in the NBA is unreasonable, especially if you're trying to determine what "fair market value" is so that you can trade him. And the fact that we've apparently not had the most enticing offers for Artest over the past few months may be an indication that "fair market value" is not as high as we think it might be.

My whole line of thinking is that we should not be offering Artest a new contract, so this month was the last real chance we had of getting something back for him. The way it stands now, we are not in control of the situation. He is. And that's a precarious situation to put yourself in, to be at the mercy of Ron Artest.

 

[beb0p]

I'd like to know how you justify signing Ron Artest to a new contract with the intention of keeping him here. I don't think that the Kings should, under any circumstances, re-sign Artest, especially not if he opts out this summer.

This is ridiculous. I've already said my preference is to trade him. But the point is the trade needs to be at least not a complete rip-off. Not looking for a fair trade, but we shouldn't give away Artest either.

Yes, Artest can forgo his millions on the table and leave. But he won't do it. If there's one thing we can all predict about Artest, it's that he's either staying put or he's gone in a sign-n-trade. We are going to have another crack at trading him. The argument some of you need to make is NOT why we should trade him now, but Why can't we wait until the summer for a better deal.

 

[fnordius]

If there's one thing we can all predict about Artest, it's that he's either staying put or he's gone in a sign-n-trade.

I don't think that most of us believe that you, or anyone else, can predict what Ron Artest is going to do. There's no question at all that he could get MLE, that's the absolute worst case scenario for him, and that's only a couple million less than he's making in Sac, so it's not as if he'd be losing a whole lot of money (by NBA standards). He might want to be in NY. He has said that he wants to play for a contender, which we're not. He might just walk because the mood strikes him.

Ron simply isn't that predictable. Will he be a hero in our next game, or will he lie down on the floor and flail around? You never know.

 

[Jerryaki]

If there's one thing we can all predict about Artest, it's that he's either staying put or he's gone in a sign-n-trade.

as has been pointed out earlier, this is the problem: both of those things are dependent on artest. he is definitely one of those guys who, if he doesn't like the team being traded to, won't show up once traded.

 

[beb0p]

I don't think that most of us believe that you, or anyone else, can predict what Ron Artest is going to do. There's no question at all that he could get MLE, that's the absolute worst case scenario for him, and that's only a couple million less than he's making in Sac, so it's not as if he'd be losing a whole lot of money (by NBA standards). He might want to be in NY. He has said that he wants to play for a contender, which we're not. He might just walk because the mood strikes him.

Ron simply isn't that predictable. Will he be a hero in our next game, or will he lie down on the floor and flail around? You never know.

Losing 3 million dollars IS a whole lot of money, even by NBA standard. Don't confuse Ron Artest's net worth with that of a Bill Gates or a Rocketfeller, alright?

Let's look at it this way: here's a guy who tried to get a job at Best Buy, while playing for the Bulls, just so he can get the employee discount. You think that guy is going to walk away from 3 million dollars (and perhaps more)?

The one thing you can predict is that Ron Ron is not going to go against his own financial interest. Ron to NY for the MLE is just as likely to happen as KG opting out last summer and sign with the Lakers for the MLE.

 

[beb0p]

as has been pointed out earlier, this is the problem: both of those things are dependent on artest. he is definitely one of those guys who, if he doesn't like the team being traded to, won't show up once traded.

Only a playoff team would trade for Artest, so I don't see his destination as being a problem. Artest wants to be in the PO, the only problem after he arrives at his new team is that he'll start making chamipionship prediction.

 

[Jerryaki]

The one thing you can predict is that Ron Ron is not going to go against his own financial interest. Ron to NY for the MLE is just as likely to happen as KG opting out last summer and sign with the Lakers for the MLE.

um, you're comparing the situations of kevin garnett (whose loyalty is well-documented throughout his career) with that of artest (who is so loyal he wanted time off from the pacers to promote his rap album)?

 

[Jerryaki]

Only a playoff team would trade for Artest, so I don't see his destination as being a problem. Artest wants to be in the PO, the only problem after he arrives at his new team is that he'll start making chamipionship prediction.

except...basically only one play-off team was dancing with us this trading deadline, and that was the nuggets. is their offer magically going to get better this summer?

 

[beb0p]

um, you're comparing the situations of kevin garnett (whose loyalty is well-documented throughout his career) with that of artest (who is so loyal he wanted time off from the pacers to promote his rap album)?

I compared the situations. But somehow you turned it into a comparison of the players, which I wasn't making.

Speaking of Artest's time-off from the Pacers. Why did he do it? Money. He was losing Benjamins on that record deal and he wanted time to promote the CD.

This is not a guy who's going to leave 3M on the table.

 

[Glenn]

This is not a guy who's going to leave 3M on the table.

Or leave his Bird Rights on the table which is exactly what he will fail to gain by signing a MLE.

 

[beb0p]

except...basically only one play-off team was dancing with us this trading deadline, and that was the nuggets. is their offer magically going to get better this summer?

And Atlanta was not dancing with us for Mike Bibby last year. Things change in a hurry in the NBA. I can't predict which team, but somebody will want one of the best two-way player in the NBA.

 

[Jerryaki]

I compared the situations. But somehow you turned it into a comparison of the players, which I wasn't making.

Speaking of Artest's time-off from the Pacers. Why did he do it? Money. He was losing Benjamins on that record deal and he wanted time to promote the CD.

This is not a guy who's going to leave 3M on the table.

why would you compare their situations, when it's one intensely loyal guy who's one of the best PFs in the game ever, and one guy who's a nutter? just because they are/were both in bad situations doesn't mean they would respond the same (which is what you did imply, and is misleading). KG would not leave the wolves and sign with the lakers for the MLE (because he is insanely loyal) and artest would not leave the kings to sign with a contender for the MLE (um, why not?). their situations are different because of who they are.

and talk about a guy who's not going to leave money on the table. he got suspended for two games for that CD stunt (lost wages), a whole season for the brawl (lost wages), and more than a month i think for the trade demand in indiana (lost wages). that really sound like a guy who's putting money first?