Why I believe Eric Musselman should get the axe

#1
Its the end of the season and you still have players running down the court taking quick shots, not setting up any kind of offense, and getting burned every other play on defense. A team that pretty much does whatever they want out there. IMO that falls back on the coach. Muss has had all season to get his players in check and be the leader of this team and has done nothing. Sacramento needs a coach who the team respects. Sure Muss doesn't have the greatest players to work with but regardless of what we all think, these guys can actually play if utilized correctly. You don't spend half the season trying to make offensive minded players into defensive minded players. You focus on the offensive aspect of their game and when it comes to defense, you bring in Price and Williams off the bench, and give them real minutes. Kings fans have always had soft spot for underdogs. Eric Musselman was one of them. He had his chance and screwed it up. I will be truly disappointed if hes back next year.


To future head coach of the Sacramento Kings: Get wins or get out.





(If this thread gets closed, thanks for reading anyways.)
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#2
Closed? Nah... You made some really good points. My only dilemma is whether it should go here or in the Personnel Moves (or "Wishful Thinking") forum...

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Musselman had his chance and screwed it up.
Wave buh-bye to the nice little man...I have to wonder if his R.C. Wiley commercials will last longer in Sacramento than he does.
 
#3
Kings fans have always had soft spot for underdogs.

To future head coach of the Sacramento Kings: Get wins or get out.
If we would have seen the fire, intensity, and hustle from the team I'm pretty sure we would have cheered our current underdog as well. However, we only saw spurts.
If I see that change with the next coach, I won't worry too much about the W/L record. I'll always cheer effort. Too bad I didn't have that much of a chance to this year.

Otherwise, I thought your comments were good.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#4
This is just one of those threads where its kinda all been said for months now, and there's only a handful of people who would even bother to contest at this point.

I do think with our major spiral now that it may have tipped things. Entirely apart from the improved draft position, the difference between the team going 39-43 and "barely missing" that oh so important #8 seed, and the team going 32-50 or some such and being miserable could finally be the jolt that needed to shake the Maloofs out of delusionville and get them to give Geoff carte blanche on the complete rebuild, coach included. Or at least I certainly hope that's the case.
 
#5
Closed? Nah... You made some really good points. My only dilemma is whether it should go here or in the Personnel Moves (or "Wishful Thinking") forum...

I think you've hit the nail on the head.



Wave buh-bye to the nice little man...I have to wonder if his R.C. Wiley commercials will last longer in Sacramento than he does.
I hope not! they both need to go...and soon
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#6
Its the end of the season and you still have players running down the court taking quick shots, not setting up any kind of offense, and getting burned every other play on defense. A team that pretty much does whatever they want out there. IMO that falls back on the coach. Muss has had all season to get his players in check and be the leader of this team and has done nothing. Sacramento needs a coach who the team respects. Sure Muss doesn't have the greatest players to work with but regardless of what we all think, these guys can actually play if utilized correctly. You don't spend half the season trying to make offensive minded players into defensive minded players. You focus on the offensive aspect of their game and when it comes to defense, you bring in Price and Williams off the bench, and give them real minutes. Kings fans have always had soft spot for underdogs. Eric Musselman was one of them. He had his chance and screwed it up. I will be truly disappointed if hes back next year.


To future head coach of the Sacramento Kings: Get wins or get out.
Now we get into the expectation game. "Get wins or get out", hugh? I want this team to get blown up and go with a youth movement. Youngins make mistakes, they need refinement, and they need experience to get good. Turnover is their middle name. They tend to do a lot of losing before they "get wins", at least on a fairly consistent basis. I'm not expecting, in fact I'm not even hoping for a playoff bid next year, unless it's done with a considerable amount of youth, not vets who are in or past their prime. So my biggest consideration for the coach is: Can he make young talent better? Can he mold them into an unselfish team? Can he get them to play hard even though they are losing? Bernie Bickerstaff is a good example. Is he a good coach? By all accounts he is. His team plays hard even when they aren't winning. But if one just went by his record, he's a lousy coach - he doesn't "get wins." When the front office makes their decision, I'm hoping their focus on those particular areas, not primarily on "getting wins."
 
#7
If we would have seen the fire, intensity, and hustle from the team I'm pretty sure we would have cheered our current underdog as well. However, we only saw spurts.
If I see that change with the next coach, I won't worry too much about the W/L record. I'll always cheer effort. Too bad I didn't have that much of a chance to this year.

Otherwise, I thought your comments were good.
somebody used to have a musselman quote in their signature that said something like "the respect of the fans will come when they see how hard we play." that's a true statement. the fans would respect this team more if the fire, intensity, and hustle were there. but the team doesn't have that, and so they've made a liar out of musselman. at the same time, muss hasn't done much to remedy the situation, so he's made a liar of himself. that was a wonderful statement to begin the '06-'07 season, but we haven't seen it, so it makes it that much more disappointing. personally, i don't really care if the kings fire musselman this offseason. in this kind of transition period, its gonna take a few years to rebuild, so the more games we lose while we're busy trying to liquidate our "assets" (ie: trading bibby/miller/artest/thomas), the better draft position we'll be in next offseason. people don't like to hear that kind of stuff...but its a long process. its gonna be a grind. the kings need to stockpile young talent until they figure out what players they can hang their hat on, then move from there, fill in the gaps, and continue to look towards the future. musselman's caught in the crossfire, and i feel bad for him, regardless of how inadequate he is as an nba head coach. its a nasty place to be...and he's gonna get burned. he might not have the opportunity to head coach in the nba ever again, and neither the kings front office nor the kings owners nor the kings players themselves did much to help him out.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#8
somebody used to have a musselman quote in their signature that said something like "the respect of the fans will come when they see how hard we play." that's a true statement. the fans would respect this team more if the fire, intensity, and hustle were there. but the team doesn't have that, and so they've made a liar out of musselman.
That's me, and I left it in there all season as a reminder of what I am looking for. It's also the reason I have a Garcia picture up there. He's one of my favorite players just because of the hustle he gives.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#9
Now we get into the expectation game. "Get wins or get out", hugh? I want this team to get blown up and go with a youth movement. Youngins make mistakes, they need refinement, and they need experience to get good. Turnover is their middle name. They tend to do a lot of losing before they "get wins", at least on a fairly consistent basis. I'm not expecting, in fact I'm not even hoping for a playoff bid next year, unless it's done with a considerable amount of youth, not vets who are in or past their prime. So my biggest consideration for the coach is: Can he make young talent better? Can he mold them into an unselfish team? Can he get them to play hard even though they are losing? Bernie Bickerstaff is a good example. Is he a good coach? By all accounts he is. His team plays hard even when they aren't winning. But if one just went by his record, he's a lousy coach - he doesn't "get wins." When the front office makes their decision, I'm hoping their focus on those particular areas, not primarily on "getting wins."
All good points, but the wins have to be there at some point or it's just not gonna pay the bills.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#10
and i feel bad for him, regardless of how inadequate he is as an nba head coach. its a nasty place to be...and he's gonna get burned. he might not have the opportunity to head coach in the nba ever again, and neither the kings front office nor the kings owners nor the kings players themselves did much to help him out.
He chose to step into the fire. There are 30 head coach positions in the NBA. He's in pretty exclusive company.

I don't feel badly for him. I honestly think he might be able to garner some success at the collegiate level.

The front office helped him out. They gave him the job and then, when he was arrested for DUI, they were supportive. So were the owners and so were the players. And, for the most part, so were the fans.

Musselman has failed as a head coach. It happens. It's not personal; it's business... and as a second generation NBA coach, I'm pretty sure he knows it better than any of us.
 
#11
Muss needs to go or remain as a lame duck for another year, or a portion of it, as part of the overall rebuild strategy as padrino said. He has been bad, outmatched by the numerous and relentless challenges.

Even so, the Maloofs are at the core of the disintegration. Not Muss, not Artest or any other player. But alas, they own this club, so they are accountable to nobody. Except perhaps us fans, who can make a big statement and hit the Maloofs hardest by not re-upping season tickets.

But this thread is about Muss. He is outta here.
 
#12
i reserve my empathy for those that make less than say a few mil a year...

on the opposite side... the maloof involvement in the kings activities makes me wonder how much power musselman was really given to begin with. on the face of it, he looks like a bad coach, but i think theres multiple layers to that.

muss is a great stat guy. stat guys are great asst coaches. its just that. a coach is a leader, either through the old style of my way or highway (pop, sloan, brown), or a "players" coach. good coaches have a knack to lead, and nurture what is given to him. muss doesnt have that ability to lead, or inspire his players.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#13
muss is a great stat guy. stat guys are great asst coaches. its just that. a coach is a leader, either through the old style of my way or highway (pop, sloan, brown), or a "players" coach. good coaches have a knack to lead, and nurture what is given to him. muss doesnt have that ability to lead, or inspire his players.
I think that's a nice summation. Muss knows a lot about basketball, but he's not a head man. NBA head coaching is a human realtions position. Its about leadership, not Xs and Os. Muss is the support staff.

As an aside, I really think Muss has to go now. Haivng him around another year, only for a midseason firing or whatnot is just chaotic, and couldn't be good for the development of our young guys. Nor could his desperate flailing attempts to keep his job by playing his veterans, trying to make blowouts look "close" etc.

Muss was the Maloofs' guy...but only after Geoff subtly found a way to get them to take a look at all the candidates again rather than just do the laugjingstock thing and hire Whiz. That still amazes me. In any case, the Maloofs choice, not Geoff's, but not what I think their grand "plan" was when they canned the only coach to ever have a winning season (8 of them) in the history of the Sacramento franchise. What they really should have done was give Mario Elie a whirl. That was my favorite name in the search -- if coaching is leadership, then there was your best shot. No guarantee, but your best shot.
 
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#14
muss is a great stat guy. stat guys are great asst coaches. its just that. a coach is a leader, either through the old style of my way or highway (pop, sloan, brown), or a "players" coach. good coaches have a knack to lead, and nurture what is given to him. muss doesnt have that ability to lead, or inspire his players.
I agree with this. I've long viewed coaching as primarily a people job. It's about communicating. Anyone can run numbers, a million people know and study the game. The key ingredient is being able to communicate and lead, to earn the respect of, inspire, and have good relationships with the players. Basketball is unique that way because it is such a team game. Baseball managers are genuises as strategey, football coaches skilled at systems and play calling.

I'd say the second most needed skill is in-game coaching ability and responsiveness. Those are the two qualities I see as being most important for an NBA coach, and Musslesman hasn't really displayed either.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#15
All good points, but the wins have to be there at some point or it's just not gonna pay the bills.
Sure, that's a given. I'm willing to tolerate two more years of .350 to .400 ball if we do this rebuild right. If we can trade Bibby and Artest for younger, raw talent who are only 1-2 years away from making a significant impact, I think that's fairly realistic. And if we do go with the youth movement, I would expect that there would be a fair amount of excitement at Arco because you would have athletic young ballplayers who hustle and who have upside. I love watching kids like Martin and Garcia hone their game. They aren't jaded by the NBA. They get after it. That's what we could see at Arco in the near term.
 
#16
but not what I think their grand "plan" was when they canned the only coach to ever have a winning season (8 of them) in the history of the Sacramento franchise. What they really should have done was give Mario Elie a whirl. That was my favorite name in the search -- if coaching is leadership, then there was your best shot. No guarantee, but your best shot.
Now Brick, I know you're an Adelman guy, and you don't miss a chance to remind us how great he was and how dumb the Maloofs were to let him go..but how bout this: Adelman is a great coach when you have a team full of the peices that you need to start melding and making a run. But we all saw how he tends to not develop the young talent. Now that may have just been his choice given the circumstances, you know, just concentrating on who you've got and trying to get straight to the title rather than simultaneously trying to develop young talent for the future. Could be feature of his philosohy. Go with what you got, die trying. Don't spend your efforts trying to run a farm team within your current team at the same time. That team died trying. And maybe Adelman wouldn't have been the guy to start over with. We'll never know.

I agree with the Mario Elie thought. Is he available now?
 
#17
I think the knock on Adelman for not developing young talent is exaggerated. With the glaring exception of Wallace, most of the other young players played up to their potential when they were here. Would we be any better off now with the draft picks we didn't play more? I don't think we would. It is possible that Wallace would have become the player he is for Charlotte if he was given more playing time. But it is also possible he would never have blossomed. People act as if giving players more playing time guarantees they will become great players. The reality is most NBA players, especially ones that go later in the draft, don't amount to more than role players. For every two superstar team, 10 of those guys are role players. For example, in theory lets say that Adelman had given more playing time to all of our draft picks. That would be Williams, Peja, Hedo, Wallace, Martin, Garcia. Which of those guys should have gotten more playing time under Adelman? All of them got time when they needed it. If we had spent the time to develop all of these guys, we would still be in the same position we are in now. A team without a superstar.
 
#18
What they really should have done was give Mario Elie a whirl. That was my favorite name in the search -- if coaching is leadership, then there was your best shot. No guarantee, but your best shot.
I wanted Mario and was a little disappointed that they seemed to lock onto Musselman after his great powerpoint presentation. Be prepared all you want but if you don't have the respect of your players it's not going to get you very far. Elie has the rings(3 to be exact), the leadership and would demand respect from the get go.

Muss pretty much played college ball at a small school and never played in the NBA(may have had a quick stint playing in the CBA but I'm not sure and frankly don't care).

As far as developing players that is a tough one. The Kings were loaded with talent during the Adelman era and when you are competing for championships(not lottery position) coaches tend to go with the horses and could care less about developing talent.
 
#19
The reality is most NBA players, especially ones that go later in the draft, don't amount to more than role players.
It depends on the particular draft you're talking about. Wallace's year, 2001, is a good example of a year when that was not entirely true. Look at who got picked right after him:

Round 1
25. Gerald Wallace
26. Samuel Dalembert
27. Jamaal Tinsley
28. Tony Parker
Round 2
1. Trenton Hassell
2. Gilbert Arenas

Not all superstars, by any means, but a lot better than you'd normally expect from guys picked that late.

The 9th pick of the second round was Mehmet Okur, the 13th was Bobby Simmons. The picking was just horrible that year, there were at least 10 late picks who were better than the #1 pick (Kwame Brown). A year when Mo Evans would go undrafted, but Eddie Griffin would be #7.

So while I agree that later picks definitely tend to be worse, I think it would be a mistake to write someone off simply because they were picked late.
 
#20
This is my opinion but i think maloofs looked at dallas last year after they canned nellie, promoted avery to the head position.. they thought they could do the emulate that and move up the ranks as a defensive team. i also liked the idea of elie as a head coach.

I think that's a nice summation. Muss knows a lot about basketball, but he's not a head man. NBA head coaching is a human realtions position. Its about leadership, not Xs and Os. Muss is the support staff.

As an aside, I really think Muss has to go now. Haivng him around another year, only for a midseason firing or whatnot is just chaotic, and couldn't be good for the development of our young guys. Nor could his desperate flailing attempts to keep his job by playing his veterans, trying to make blowouts look "close" etc.

Muss was the Maloofs' guy...but only after Geoff subtly found a way to get them to take a look at all the candidates again rather than just do the laugjingstock thing and hire Whiz. That still amazes me. In any case, the Maloofs choice, not Geoff's, but not what I think their grand "plan" was when they canned the only coach to ever have a winning season (8 of them) in the history of the Sacramento franchise. What they really should have done was give Mario Elie a whirl. That was my favorite name in the search -- if coaching is leadership, then there was your best shot. No guarantee, but your best shot.
 
#21
It depends on the particular draft you're talking about. Wallace's year, 2001, is a good example of a year when that was not entirely true. Look at who got picked right after him:

Round 1
25. Gerald Wallace
26. Samuel Dalembert
27. Jamaal Tinsley
28. Tony Parker
Round 2
1. Trenton Hassell
2. Gilbert Arenas

Not all superstars, by any means, but a lot better than you'd normally expect from guys picked that late.

The 9th pick of the second round was Mehmet Okur, the 13th was Bobby Simmons. The picking was just horrible that year, there were at least 10 late picks who were better than the #1 pick (Kwame Brown). A year when Mo Evans would go undrafted, but Eddie Griffin would be #7.

So while I agree that later picks definitely tend to be worse, I think it would be a mistake to write someone off simply because they were picked late.
agreed Mike Redd and G Arenas turned out superstars even though picked late
 
#23
This is my opinion but i think maloofs looked at dallas last year after they canned nellie, promoted avery to the head position.. they thought they could do the emulate that and move up the ranks as a defensive team. i also liked the idea of elie as a head coach.
But that's promotion from within - Avery knew how the team operated most efficiently. He didn't change things too much offensively, but gave them a defensive edge.

Maybe something comparable would have been to hire Elston Turner.
 
#25
Sure, that's a given. I'm willing to tolerate two more years of .350 to .400 ball if we do this rebuild right. If we can trade Bibby and Artest for younger, raw talent who are only 1-2 years away from making a significant impact, I think that's fairly realistic. And if we do go with the youth movement, I would expect that there would be a fair amount of excitement at Arco because you would have athletic young ballplayers who hustle and who have upside. I love watching kids like Martin and Garcia hone their game. They aren't jaded by the NBA. They get after it. That's what we could see at Arco in the near term.
I agree with most of your post, exception one I'll touch on. We definitely need to give more breathing room to Garcia, Price, and even Salmons (imo). Not that Salmons neccesarily equals youth, but he's a very decent player and capable of a few swings here and there.

Garcia along with Martin is going to make a wonderful duo. Problem is, I feel they both still need a capable point guard. I've been very much impressed with the way Garcia has came in and hit the floor for the team. Even if we were down by 20. Hopefully next year, with possibly a trading of Artest - he'll have an even bigger spot.

Now I know I'll probably be grilled for this. That's fine. I'm still one of the select individuals that feels Bibby should stay. Sure he shouldn't get the same dollar amount, and he'd definitely need a few slaps in the face. Early injuries, changes left and right, adversity - no excuse, but I have no doubt it's hard. From my perspective, before we move Bibby - they should attempt to bring some of the fun back for him. He just seems as if he's a different person when the fun isn't there. Fun consisting of personnel, players, and more importantly - the coach. It's not like the Bibby of old isn't still there (as we've seen in far too few games), but when things are flowing and meshing well - he still is Bibby. I just don't see us having, or getting anyone more capable than he is right now.

In my opinion, players like Brad (even though I love him to death), Shareef, Kenny Thomas, and 1-2 others should definitely get the axe - along with Muss. While it's not the dollar amount cleared everyone wants, it opens up alot of room for potential youth to grow, hone their skills, and mesh together once again as a free flowing basketball roots team. Not a team of 1 on 1 basketball.
 
#27
the axe? he should get the guillotine
and subsequently buried next to Edwin Perkins, inventor of the liquid concentrate "Fruit Smack". In 1927, Mr. Perkins discovered a way to remove the liquid from Fruit Smack, leaving only a powder. This powder was eventually named Kool-Aid.

RIP ;)
 
#28
and subsequently buried next to Edwin Perkins, inventor of the liquid concentrate "Fruit Smack". In 1927, Mr. Perkins discovered a way to remove the liquid from Fruit Smack, leaving only a powder. This powder was eventually named Kool-Aid.

RIP ;)
All this Kool-Aid talk. I must have missed the original joke. Can someone fill me in?
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#29
The Kings often come out and play absymally in the second half after a decent start... We started talking about what might be happening during the half-time.

When Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple followers in Guyana committed mass suicide, it was originally reported the deaths were the result of having them drink cyanide-laced kool-aid. (The reports were later changed but the idea of someone using a popular, innocent item like kool-aid for nefarious purposes had already entered the public arena...)

We started using it here in that type of context.
 
#30
The Kings often come out and play absymally in the second half after a decent start... We started talking about what might be happening during the half-time.

When Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple followers in Guyana committed mass suicide, it was originally reported the deaths were the result of having them drink cyanide-laced kool-aid. (The reports were later changed but the idea of someone using a popular, innocent item like kool-aid for nefarious purposes had already entered the public arena...)

We started using it here in that type of context.
And that's about as thorough an answer as you're going to get, folks! Thanks! I am truly in the know now.