Who should be the King's primary Point-Big?

[mcsluggo]

Ok, looking at the latest Voison thread, and the discussion of the Kings Princeton-offense being designed to usually move through a point-bigman, raises the question: Who should it primarily be for the Kings? Brad or Cwebb.

We are blessed with two bigs who can both shoot well from the outside, and who also are great distributors, the requirements for the Princeton point-big. Its awesome having two, as it ensures that one can be on the floor almost all of the time, and we can almost always have someone out there to run the show as we like it run. But when they are both on the floor, who should be the primary point man? I know this is fluid, and they'll always BOTH fill this role to some extent, but who should be PRIMARY. In the past both Vlade and Webb could play this role, and at different times they both did, and they both did well, AND early on they both worked well away from the ball. Toward the end, Vlade was only REALLY good with the ball in his hands, and yet the ball moved more through Chris (who, last year especially, was also physically constrained in operating with out the ball), this was at least one of the sources of friction last year.

This year, in my opinion both Chris and Brad are capable of performing the point role really well, and you don't lose much moving from one to the other in THIS role, so the question really should be: Who is capable of contributing better away from the ball? In my opinion Brad sets better pics more consistantly, Webber has the better down low moves, brad is more inclined to bang around underneath, but when webber does it, he's generally got more to work with (brad's got more of a motor, Webber has better hands and athleticism, even after the injury). SO who would you like to be responsible for operating without the ball more, Brad or Chris? Thus far it is primarily Chris when they are both on the floor, should it continue that way?

(I hope this doesn't degrade down to a "webber is selfish keep the ball out of his hands" or "Webber is the superstar who has claimed the mantle of the team, its his job to carry them so he has to be the distributor". Rather, it would be nice if we could discuss how the Kings can best use both of their considerable skills simultaneously with the greatest efficiency. You definitely don’t have to insult one of the players, or overerly pump up one of them up to support one position or the other.)

 

[10bibby10]

well we all know that webber is the primary one right now and he will be as long as he is with this team and starting...but i agree that miller is totally capable of bein the primary one...but also i think he is more comfortable as his spot behind webber although he has proven he can step up when his number is called...and with a pretty damn good record so far i dont see adleman changing anything he has done to this point

 

[mcsluggo]

See, I may be naive, but I don't see the guy who handles the point as neccessarily being "above" the other, (and the other being subordinate). When snow was handling the point and iverson was playing more away from the ball, did Iverson suddenly become sub-ordinate to snow on the 6ers?

I'm afraid it is possible that some on the Kings WOULD view it this way, and this might have been the reason there was a conflict between Webber and Vlade last year, (IF there really was one, and not just a bunch of overblown hubbabaloo overanalyzing players who were just dissapointed in having been eliminated, and were venting).

I would hope the kings playes could get past this, but in any case, IN A PERFECT WORLD WHERE EVERYBODY had rose petals on their butts and shiny white teeth, and were willing to do whatever would be best....:
Who do you think it would be better for the Kings to have playing the point-big?

 

[10bibby10]

i honestly think its best havin webber there solely because he has been there and even though he is injured he is still more athletic than brad and has way better ball handling skills...do you agree?

 

[ReinadelosReys]

(I hope this doesn't degrade down to a "webber is selfish keep the ball out of his hands" or "Webber is the superstar who has claimed the mantle of the team, its his job to carry them so he has to be the distributor". Rather, it would be nice if we could discuss how the Kings can best use both of their considerable skills simultaneously with the greatest efficiency. You definitely don’t have to insult one of the players, or overerly pump up one of them up to support one position or the other.)

It is a sad state of affairs when the above has to be added to the end of a post....:/

RE: the Post

If you want someone just looking to be a pass-first, second, thrid and always, then its Brad. If you want someone with half a scorer's mentality, then its Webb. Personally, I would like to see more of an offense that puts one of them in the low-to mid post instead of both of them at the high post. But heys, its working right now.

 

[shaka zulu]

When you run the princeton style motion offense no one is the primary point man neither brad miller or chris webber is the focal point of the offense.with this type of offensive set you have 2 high post spots so whoever has the hot side or hot angle the point guard will bring the ball to that side of the floor and run the offense.There are several options once you get into the offense Bibby being the primary ball handler can choose to use a double screen off of both high post or he can just run pick n roll with Webber on his side and Brad will then set a pick for the shooter on his side so you never are really supposed to be standing it is constant motion, player movement and ball movement that makes the offense work.

Other times bibby can come down and pass the ball into the high post he can play hide and seek by using the desired post spot be it Webber or miller to get a open look by moving behind the screen.Or other occassions he will come down and give the ball to the high post spot bibby inturn will move away from the ball and set a screen on the other side of the ball.The high post player then will look for a cutter under the basket and his first optiuon which is the shooter coming off the screens from the baseline.But the key is Bibby's screen to keep the movement flowing.Motion offense emphasis is ball movement and player movement.


What is so fun about the offense is anyone even peja can jump into the High post spot to intiate the offense.also anyone can bring the ball up in deliver the entry pass to the high post so everone touches the ball and is involved in the process of scoring the basketball.The key is what is hot and what is flowing at that time it could be Brad miller or Chris webber or mike bibby screen and roll or peja back door layups or peja coming off screens for long balls.The kings have by far the best offensive sets in basketball because they can score in the half court multiple ways and angles,they can score easily off of inbound plays.They can run the fast break shoot fouls shots etc.What is crazy is people are giving the spurs props for running their offense and even kenny smith was saying how they have the best half court offense in basketball.But all they did was bite the kings style of motion and it started last season when Duncan went down.But they are just pretenders of the O

At the end of the day it doesn't matter of runs the high post delivery's.Chris is better at pasing the ball from multiple angles and has more of a point forward menatlity and can put you at triple threat.But brad is better at beating double teams of the dribble because he can fake the pass and he is better at straight line dribble drives to the basket.Webber can get to the rim as well and he beat double teams with a pass better but he uses too many dribbles to get the basket if he is forced to put the ball on the floor.Brad can catch the defense off guard and get to the basket with fewer dribbles.Both players are fairly equal at hitting the open 15 ft shot, but it all depends on who's hot and what is working.MOTION OFFENSE IS AN OFFENSE OF EQUALITY

 

[uolj]

I think Webber should be the Kings primary Point-Big. In the games that I watch not only is he the primary initiator over Miller, but it's by a pretty wide margin. I'd like to see Miller initiate more than he has been, but still less than Webber overall (does that make sense).

I admit that I wasn't able to watch the last few games when Miller has excelled, but it has always seemed as if Webber was better at scoring on his own when nothing else in the offense is open. He seems to be better at driving from the high post, or turning around and sliding down to the low post for a jump hook.

Also, the big that doesn't have the ball tends to get more wide open 18 footers than the guy who's initiating. Miller is money with that shot when he is wide open, whereas Webber's accuracy doesn't seem to be as contigent on being wide open versus slightly open.

So basically, I like Webber's ability to score when being covered better than Miller's, and I like Miller's ability to score when open better than Webber's. Therefore, I think Webber should continue to be the primary point-big. That said, I'd like to see Miller run a few more possessions each game than he has been, for variety, to get his scoring up, and to free up Webber to do other things like posting up.

 

[Superman]

I think it should be Chris Webber (in passing mode) because Brad works a lot better and harder off the ball. Chris can create more than Brad for himself and his teammates, and he's more athletic. Brad is more of a banger/hustle guy, and if he were constantly moving and working to get his teammates open, he'd get a lot of open looks and layups.

Of course, it is necessary for Chris to be in a "take what the defense is giving" mood, rather than forcing any action. That's what I think his primary problem is, not that he's selfish or anything like that, but that he tries too hard to make things happen. Sometimes that's necessary, like when the offense breaks down or we need a clutch basket and nothing is developing, but not as a part of our main offense.

With Brad, it's the exact opposite. He only takes what the defense is giving, and sometimes he won't even accept that. Part of it has to do with his own limitations (ie, ball-handling, athleticism), but it's mostly attitude. Most of the time he doesn't have that edge that is necessary for our primary facilitator to have, especially when things break down.

Like shaka zulu mentioned, though, it's about what's hot and what's flowing at the moment. If Mike is feeling it, then it doesn't matter who's initiating, because Mike is gonna make it happen. If Peja gets hot, then it doesn't matter because the whole team needs to be focused on getting him open so that he can do something with the ball. If Webb has a mismatch down low, then Brad initiates and the team works the ball into the post, while still running their cuts and everything else. If nothing is working, then maybe you let Mike and Chris run a two-man game, while keeping their heads up in case Peja or Cut-throat come open, and Brad bangs down low.

What's so nice about our team is that - if everyone realizes it - we always have the option of taking what the defense is giving. Everyone in the starting lineup is a threat to score 30 at any given moment, and if we run our offense with the solid screens and back cuts and crisp passing and ball movement, something good is going to happen for us. Patience is key, and as long as Chris or Mike or Peja or Brad or Cut-throat are on the floor, we can get a good shot in the flow of the offense.

 

[KP]

I think it should be Chris Webber (in passing mode) because Brad works a lot better and harder off the ball. Chris can create more than Brad for himself and his teammates, and he's more athletic. Brad is more of a banger/hustle guy, and if he were constantly moving and working to get his teammates open, he'd get a lot of open looks and layups.

Of course, it is necessary for Chris to be in a "take what the defense is giving" mood, rather than forcing any action. That's what I think his primary problem is, not that he's selfish or anything like that, but that he tries too hard to make things happen. Sometimes that's necessary, like when the offense breaks down or we need a clutch basket and nothing is developing, but not as a part of our main offense.

With Brad, it's the exact opposite. He only takes what the defense is giving, and sometimes he won't even accept that. Part of it has to do with his own limitations (ie, ball-handling, athleticism), but it's mostly attitude. Most of the time he doesn't have that edge that is necessary for our primary facilitator to have, especially when things break down.

Like shaka zulu mentioned, though, it's about what's hot and what's flowing at the moment. If Mike is feeling it, then it doesn't matter who's initiating, because Mike is gonna make it happen. If Peja gets hot, then it doesn't matter because the whole team needs to be focused on getting him open so that he can do something with the ball. If Webb has a mismatch down low, then Brad initiates and the team works the ball into the post, while still running their cuts and everything else. If nothing is working, then maybe you let Mike and Chris run a two-man game, while keeping their heads up in case Peja or Cut-throat come open, and Brad bangs down low.

What's so nice about our team is that - if everyone realizes it - we always have the option of taking what the defense is giving. Everyone in the starting lineup is a threat to score 30 at any given moment, and if we run our offense with the solid screens and back cuts and crisp passing and ball movement, something good is going to happen for us. Patience is key, and as long as Chris or Mike or Peja or Brad or Cut-throat are on the floor, we can get a good shot in the flow of the offense.

Right^. Besides the fact that Webb is a much better passer and draws more attention, Brad is a perfect safety valve off any play that's developing. If Webb initiates the offense with Bibby/ Peja or Cat they can all pass out to Miller if they get cut off and a lot of times he's wide open(and thats a good thing).

 

[mcsluggo]

I really like, and agree with Shaka's answer, in general. But it still is the case that SOMEONE is designated primary, either officially or unoficially. It may be a 5 point star with all of the ponts moving around and passing to each other, but one of the points is the most "anchored" (for lack of a better term).

I'm still conflicted about whether it should be Webb or Miller. As Supes said, Webb is better at creating his shot, and Miller is, in general, more active, supporting the idea that web should be point. On the other hand for this role, usually "taking only what the D is giving" is exactly what the MD is prescribing. Miller has shown he CAN be forceful in getting his own shot (when both Vlade and Webber have been out and he conciously decides to). And webber HAS been incredible effective with out the ball in the past, back in 02 and before when Vlade was more of the "designated big". Clearly he has lost some of his athletic tools, but he still has more than Miller.

IF (and I know this is a big if, and one that is likely to get the Wbber-debate-inferno going hot again) webber is willing to buy into his role being more of the finisher/bruiser, then I think Miller being primary-point would actually work better.

<* note * I believe that it is possible that Webber would be resistant to this idea, However, unlike his multitude of vociferous detractors, I also believe he MIGHT react that way because he truly believed that it would be better for the team for him to be in the middle of the mix. I think in that case HE would believe that as BMOC it should be his role to carry the team, and to him that might mean his being more involved in all aspects, so being in control of the ball more often. I don't think he is a particularly selfish player, and I dont think in any way he values personal stats over team success, especially at this point in his career (he seems to be the MOST hungry for a title on the team, IMHO)

However, whatever the reason for his thinking (IF he indeed feels that way), I still believe its highly likely that the team could benefit from the ball going more through Miller.

 

[VF21]

Ok, looking at the latest Voison thread, and the discussion of the Kings Princeton-offense being designed to usually move through a point-bigman, raises the question: Who should it primarily be for the Kings? Brad or Cwebb.

We are blessed with two bigs who can both shoot well from the outside, and who also are great distributors, the requirements for the Princeton point-big. Its awesome having two, as it ensures that one can be on the floor almost all of the time, and we can almost always have someone out there to run the show as we like it run. But when they are both on the floor, who should be the primary point man? I know this is fluid, and they'll always BOTH fill this role to some extent, but who should be PRIMARY. In the past both Vlade and Webb could play this role, and at different times they both did, and they both did well, AND early on they both worked well away from the ball. Toward the end, Vlade was only REALLY good with the ball in his hands, and yet the ball moved more through Chris (who, last year especially, was also physically constrained in operating with out the ball), this was at least one of the sources of friction last year.

This year, in my opinion both Chris and Brad are capable of performing the point role really well, and you don't lose much moving from one to the other in THIS role, so the question really should be: Who is capable of contributing better away from the ball? In my opinion Brad sets better pics more consistantly, Webber has the better down low moves, brad is more inclined to bang around underneath, but when webber does it, he's generally got more to work with (brad's got more of a motor, Webber has better hands and athleticism, even after the injury). SO who would you like to be responsible for operating without the ball more, Brad or Chris? Thus far it is primarily Chris when they are both on the floor, should it continue that way?

(I hope this doesn't degrade down to a "webber is selfish keep the ball out of his hands" or "Webber is the superstar who has claimed the mantle of the team, its his job to carry them so he has to be the distributor". Rather, it would be nice if we could discuss how the Kings can best use both of their considerable skills simultaneously with the greatest efficiency. You definitely don’t have to insult one of the players, or overerly pump up one of them up to support one position or the other.)

I think the true beauty of our team right now is we don't have to pick between one or the other and have it cast in stone. Both bigs are capable. If anything, I like the idea they can share the duties or rotate them to counter the defense of whatever team we happen to be facing.

 

[Bricklayer]

Miller is probably the best passing center in the game, but there is still a wide gulf between the consistent impact he has with his passing and the impact Webb (and Vlade before him) could have with theirs. Brad is a good + unselfish passer, Webb can be a brilliant one.

When everbody was out the last few weeks, it was really Mike stepping forward more than Brad as the offensive initiator. And I think Brad, for all his willingness to pass, is really not comfortable in the primary role out there making decisions for everybody. Heck, he has enough problems making decisions for himself whether to shoot or not. But to actually direct the offense? Think he's the perfect #2 passing big man to Vlade last year and Webb this year. But he's not really a #1b sharing the ball with a #1a the way Vlade and Webb were. Think he's more comfortable making the most of the opportunities he does get rather than having to make decisions himself for eveybody everytime down the floor.

 

[SacTownKid]

Brad needs to shoot more. Webb needs to take a little better shot selection. Brad passes up open looks, Webb doesn't pass up open looks, or unopen for that matter.

Screw it, keep it the way it is.